Hello again:

I'm a free marketeer. IF we HAD unfettered markets, I believe, like my conservative brethren, that prosperity and happiness would ensue...

But, apparently the free market wasn't a good enough place to compete, so industry started courting government favor... Of course, once they GOT government favor, they're not going to continue to compete in the marketplace anymore... Why would they? Nooooo, they're going to compete for more government largess...

And, that's the state we find ourselves in. Certainly one look at how much the health care industry spends on lobbying instead of competing in the marketplace, should be a clue.

So, are we ever going to get BACK to what it once was, which was a health care system that WAS the best in the world, and affordable by everyone?? Nope... Once the system begins to erode the quality of life for average Americans, instead of boosting it, like capitalism is SUPPOSED to do, then it's time to change it...

So, the only solution in my book, is for the government to take it over...

It's just like the oil industry... I can't be the only one who knows that we're not going to let them bankrupt us either.

excon

So, our insurance premiums are supposed to get lowered? HA! So, why did my insurance company agent tell me that if I had one of those little farting cars my premiums would be higher than the Jeep that I own now? The reason cited by my insurance lady was the fact the little cars cost more to repair. So I'm not buying the "our insurance premiums are going to go down" baloney.

Also, didn't you guys figure out that the reason they are pulling the $4,500 trade in so that they can keep the low end price cars off the market completely? That means that there won't be many $1,000 or $1,500 affordable cars out there anymore for folks who don't make a zillion dollars a year. That means that if there are no "cheap" or reasonably priced vehicles out there to buy that everyone will have to be saddled with a monthly car payment. Great idea. Only Washington morons could dream up this dribble. Make everyone (or force them) have a nice, new farting little car with a huge monthly payment hung around their necks like millstones. Hats off to you Washington for this brilliant idea to enslave America further.

Yeah that is what worries me for ONE
I know I can't afford any $200. Or more a month car payment for some vehicle I don't even like.
I can't even imagine what it would look like if it got into one little accident. Probably totalled at 25 mph and then your insurance sky rockets

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Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

So, our insurance premiums are supposed to get lowered? HA! So, why did my insurance company agent tell me that if I had one of those little farting cars my premiums would be higher than the Jeep that I own now?

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Hello twink:

I don't know. Are you going to be so happy when it takes $165 to fill your tank, when I can drive up in my farting little car and fill up for $1.27?

It's OK if you hit me, too. I got my fenders off an old bumping in car I bought from the amusement park.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

I'm a free marketeer. IF we HAD unfettered markets, I believe, like my conservative bretheren, that prosperity and happiness would ensue....

But, apparently the free market wasn't a good enough place to compete, so industry started courting government favor... Of course, once they GOT government favor, they're not going to continue to compete in the marketplace anymore.... Why would they? Nooooo, they're going to compete for more government largess...

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Wow have you got it backward.

You actually think that banks courted government interference to force them to make loans they didn't want to make. And the auto manufacturers WANT agencies like OSHA and the EPA messing with them. And that drug companies want the FDA deciding what drugs they can make.

Practically every industry has a lobbying group to keep the government OUT of the industry. The American Bankers Association, for instance, is there to fight AGAINST government interference in the industry like the CRA legislation. But you think that these companies want government interference.

Talk about revisionist history.

Since 1942, this country hasn't had an industry in which the government hasn't poked its nose. Since the Wicckard V. Filburn case, the US government has used "interstate commerce" as an excuse to regulate every industry, but most especially the financial industry. But you think that these industries have been looking for government interference.

What a crock.

Study some history, excon. Then we'll talk.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello twink:

I dunno. Are you gonna be so happy when it takes $165 to fill your tank, when I can drive up in my farting little car and fill up for $1.27?

It's ok if you hit me, too. I got my fenders off an old bumping in car I bought from the amusement park.

excon

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Excon,

Can you think of any scenario in which oil becomes so scarce that the price becomes $165 to fill up a tank, but the price of any othjer form of energy (especially electric) stays as low as $1.27?

When oil prices rise, it causes the price of OTHER FORMS of energy to rise as well. Whether it's because of greater demand for those other forms of energy in lieu of gasoline and oil, or whether it is because the higher price of oil means that it costs more to produce other forms of energy, the result is the same. When oil prices go up, electricity prices and natural gas prices go up too.

Your scenario is, as usual , ridiculous.

Elliot

That reminds me. I heard on the news that California has gone so broke that they are now willing to drill for oil. What's up with that that they can change up when it is convenient to them to do so?

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

That reminds me. I heard on the news that California has gone so broke that they are now willing to drill for oil. Whats up with that that they can change up when it is convenient to them to do so?

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Its called hypocrisy, and it's common among ALL politicians of all persuations.

I'm glad that they're at least willing to consider the possibility.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Wow have you got it backward.

Practically every industry has a lobbying group to keep the government OUT of the industry.

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Hello again, El:

I'VE GOT IT BACKWARDS?? Dude!

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Can you think of any scenario in which oil becomes so scarce that the price becomes $165 to fill up a tank,

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Tell me, Mr. rightwing economist, just how much do you think the last barrel of oil is going to be worth? ME?? I think it'll be worth several MILLION $$$'s. You?

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

I'VE GOT IT BACKWARDS????? Dude!



Tell me, Mr. rightwing economist, just how much do you think the last barrel of oil is gonna be worth? ME??? I think it'll be worth several MILLION $$$'s. You?

excon

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I think it won't be worth much of anything. Because by the time we get to the last barrel of oil the economy will have already collapsed or we will have switched to some other form of energy. I'm betting on the latter.

And tell me, oh Font of Wisdom, if we are down to our last barrel of oil, how much will electricity be selling for?

If we haven't found another source of energy with which to create electric power by powering the electrical generators that feed the national grids, electricity will be just as scarce as the oil is.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

And tell me, oh Font of Wisdom, if we are down to our last barrel of oil, how much will electricity be selling for?

If we haven't found another source of energy with which to create electric power by powering the electrical generators that feed the national grids, electricity will be just as scarce as the oil is.

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Hello again, El:

I thought it was the rightwingers who had faith in the American Entrapranurial spirit. It seems to be missing from your mantra. You actually have NO faith at all, that we can find our way out of this dilemma, and make ourselves stronger in the process?? You really don't, do you?? And, you call yourself an American.

I see that the conservatives out there agree with you... I'd be ashamed, if I was you.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

I thought it was the rightwingers who had faith in the American Entrapranurial spirit. It seems to be missing from your mantra. You actually have NO faith at all, that we can find our way out of this dilemma, and make ourselves stronger in the process??? You really don't, do you??? And, you call yourself an American.

I see that the conservatives out there agree with you.... I'd be ashamed, if I was you.

excon

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Where, exactly, did you get that from?

Repeating my comments...

I think it won't be worth much of anything. Because by the time we get to the last barrel of oil the economy will have already collapsed or we will have switched to some other form of energy. I'm betting on the latter.

What are you reading?

Elliot

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Originally Posted by twinkiedooter

So, our insurance premiums are supposed to get lowered? HA! So, why did my insurance company agent tell me that if I had one of those little farting cars my premiums would be higher than the Jeep that I own now? The reason cited by my insurance lady was the fact the little cars cost more to repair. So I'm not buying the "our insurance premiums are going to go down" baloney.

Also, didn't you guys figure out that the reason they are pulling the $4,500 trade in so that they can keep the low end price cars off the market completely? That means that there won't be many $1,000 or $1,500 affordable cars out there anymore for folks who don't make a zillion dollars a year. That means that if there are no "cheap" or reasonably priced vehicles out there to buy that everyone will have to be saddled with a monthly car payment. Great idea. Only Washington morons could dream up this dribble. Make everyone (or force them) have a nice, new farting little car with a huge monthly payment hung around their necks like millstones. Hats off to you Washington for this brilliant idea to enslave America further.

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Good points reiterated by others in the citizenry. Are you part of the "mob" that Nancy P is talking about ? ;)



Letters - WSJ.com

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The “clunkers” being crushed were the next generation of used cars capable of supplying the middle class, minimum-wage earners, students and the poor with transportation necessary to keep this nation moving forward.

This government giveaway is only for those who qualify for a car loan and who choose to go into debt at a cost of hundreds of dollars a month in payments, plus insurance, in order to help an industry we’ve already spent billions of tax dollars bailing out.

With America still reeling from the collapse of the housing market brought on by teaser loans promising people homes they couldn’t afford, the government now comes along with a program that does for car ownership what was once done for real estate.

Crushed cars. Loan defaults. Repossessions. No transportation to get to lost jobs. It’s the next recipe for disaster that the experts, government officials, media and talking heads don’t see coming. I betcha.

Marguerite Quantaine

Ocala, Fla.


The “cash for clunkers” program required the government to accurately estimate the demand for trading in a car, and based on that to provide adequate funding for the program (“‘Cash for Clunkers’ Runs Out of Gas,” page one, July 31). The government failed in its analysis.

One might argue that the program was a success, given that the money ran out after four days, but that would be missing the larger point. Based on cash for clunkers, there is no reason to believe President Barack Obama and Congress have the ability to properly estimate the infinitely more complex supply, demand and cost of providing health care. And when they get it wrong, the outcome will be far more dire than simply having to keep one’s clunker a little while longer.

John C. Katz

Falls Church, Va.

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Wow I this op is all over the place ! #28 I showed that the program is not this great success and I see no rebutal.

Ex yes the free market will find viable alternatives eventully to oil and the market will adopt those alternatives when they become commercially viable. Mandating it isn't going to make it happen no more than if the gvt. Had regulated whale oil lamps out of existence before Edison's breakthrough. Did the gvt outlaw them years before electric lighting became viable ? Of course not. Like it or not we are wed to petroleum for the immediate future so we better start securing our sources... instead of watching while the Ruskies make deals with Cuba to drill off Fla.

Wondergirl I heard Gratzer in an interview and intend to read his book.Being a former Canadian physician gives his an insight from a different perspective.
For a preview ;here is an op-ed he penned last month.
http://www.sfexaminer.com/opinion/Re...-51371957.html

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Originally Posted by excon

If the Republicans as a group really wanted to KILL these programs, when the government opened the cash window, they wouldn't be in line.

excon

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We all have to share

Enjoy your security

Lower taxes as of now

It's really nice to have someone else make your down payment for a new car!

Not ethecal, but nice.

Let's push for hydrogen technology.

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Originally Posted by inthebox

So should the taxpayor continue to subsidize the auto buying sector of the economy?

With tax revenue down, can taxpayors of this and future generations continue to subsidize increasing government spending?

Where does it end?

Is owning a vehicle now a "right?"



G&P

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I couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree.

The "gimme gimme gimme" mentality will lead us down a road that is far worse than the one we're on now, it already it. When healthcare, housing, automobiles are all rights - there is a HUGE problem. This is the government's underhanded way of enticing everyone to go green, at tax payer's expense. I do believe we need to take care of our environment, however, I don't believe using tax payer dollars like this is wise. There is talk of monitoring everyone's heating/cooling as well as enforcing laws so you can't sell your home unless it's "green". Where is our freedom? Where is our personal choice? I fear this administration. In 2012 I will say "I told you so". Just sayin'

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Originally Posted by emmykb

There is talk

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Yup. Lots of that going on right now.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Yup. Lots of that going on right now.

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How incredibly mature of you. Do you have your head so far up your that you can't see what's truly going on? This administration is scary. I have disagreed, obviously, with presidents, senators, administrations but this is the first time I have ever been literally scared.

Obama is not unicorns and ponies and green trees and the end all be all to a "better" America.

I believe in smaller government, working hard for what you have, using Welfare/hand outs to rehabilitate people, liberty, the constitution and lower taxes. If that pisses you off and you want to retort with childish, impish remarks so be it. Perhaps open a book or do some research and come back with why you're so displeased with my comment. Until then, please refrain from typing to me.

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Originally Posted by emmykb

Perhaps open a book or do some research and come back with why you're so displeased with my comment. Until then, please refrain from typing to me.

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I'm a registered Republican. I have done research. I have listened to other Republicans as well as Dems and have listened to middle-of-the-roaders. I read everything I can get my hands on, pro and con. I work in a public library. There IS a lot of scary talk going on now--talk by Republicans who have the facts all wrong and are twisting the truth. That's why I commented on your comment that "there's talk."