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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Actually, Gal, my personal opinion is that if we lose our gun rights and gun freedoms, all other freedoms will follow. THAT scares me.

Historically speaking, every government dictatorship began with banning weapons in the hands of civillians. In Germany it was the Nurenburg laws. In Japan, only the Samurai were allowed to carry weapons. In China, only members of the Emperial Government were allowed to go armed. In Midevil Europe, weapons were tightly controlled as well, including the size of the bow you could have to hunt for food and swords were illegal for all except the government leadership and their knights. (That's why the Quarterstaff became the weapon of choice of most peasants of the period.) The Soviet Union controlled gun ownership very tightly as well in order to stay in power.

The Founders, in their wisdom, saw this historical fact --- that governments become despotic by first taking the guns out of the hands of the people --- and specifically wrote the Constitution making it illegal for the government to do so here. They knew what they were doing.

Yes, Obama is trying to take control of every part of our lives. He is controling us financially through his various spending bills and government power grabs of businesses. He is controlling how we travel (and by extension how FAR we travel) by controlling the price of fuel needed to travel and the conditions under which that fuel is used through his Cap & Trade bill. He is trying to control our lifespan, our access to health coverage, and by extension our very bodies with his nationalization of health care.

But as long as he doesn't control guns, he doesn't control US, because there is always the possibility that if he goes too far and grabs too much power in violation of the Constitution, enough people with guns will band together to stop the power grab.

But if he manages to get his hand on guns and eliminate them from the hands of the people... that is when we are really and truly screwed, because then we will no longer have the power to stop him.

Dangerous ground.

Elliot

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Hasn't happened down under here. Last time I checked Japan and Germany were doing just fine too. Along with almost the rest of the civilised world where gun control laws are in place.

Meanwhile I noticed another mass shooting in Miami overnight. 12 people was it?? Terrible shame.

But I appreciate the difference in culture and the ingrained train of thought with respect to guns in the US. No probs!

But your effort to insist that us countries with gun control laws are somehow now under complete government control is just downright wrong.

Do you think we are a bunch of idiots down here or what? Completely incapable of defending any right we have because we aren't all walking around with shotguns down our pants?

No one here cares that they can't go shopping with a handgun tucked in their purse just in case they need it to shoot down some lunatic on a shooting spree. They don't care because we don't have the lunatics on the shooting spree to begin with. And we don't buy the BS that we need guns to defend our legal rights.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

No, I see a tremendous difference between a president joking about being a dictator and one working toward that end.

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Well OK then Steve. It must be time... If you actually feel that Obama is working towards dictatorship then get out the guns. Start a rebellion. Why not nip it in the bud early. Don't let it get to that. After all that is why you have your guns isn't it? Come on. Put your money where your mouth is and start shooting. This dictator wannabe needs to learn you guys isn't going to bend over.

If approximately half the US people oppose Obama as you guys have shown, then that should be more than enough people to start the rebellion now. Stock up your guns and start shooting before the dictator takes them from you. That would seem the logical thing to do if I were you guys.

P.S. I am not being sarcastic. Im trying to follow you guys train of thought.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I realize you don't get it NK, but it's as simple as simple can get....it is our constitutional right to keep and bear arms. That right is the best guarantee we have of protecting the rest of our rights.

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I would argue your best guarantee to this is democracy and the election process. For a man of God you really have little faith in human kind and the country you live in if you feel that a killing machine is your best guarantee of protection.

I've said it before but this massive cultural difference you guys share to pretty much the rest of the industrialised / civilised world is something I actually feel sorry for you about.

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Or is it all still Bush's fault, even though Obama is in full control of the government at this point?

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Hello El:

Yes, it is. You don't really expect the momentum to turn around simply because he got some programs underway??

You DO?? Dude! Bush broke it soooo badly, that it's going to take more than a couple months to fix. Give it a little time. Really.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello El:

Yes, it is. You don't really expect the momentum to turn around simply because he got some programs underway???

You DO??? Dude! Children have no patience. Most adults learn it. Try it. It's GOOD!

excon

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Actually yeah. Come to think of it I remember lots of posts in the past where it has been mentioned that in time Bush will be remembered as one of the great Presidents. After all he kept you safe from all those nasty Muslims. But the general conception was to give it time and Bush's achievement and presidency will be looked at far more favourably than it was whilst he was in power.

They expect us to wait years to appreciate Bush's greatness but they won't give Obama 12 months..?. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Skell

Well ok then Steve. It must be time... If you actually feel that Obama is working towards dictatorship then get out the guns. Start a rebellion. Why not nip it in the bud early. Dont let it get to that. After all that is why you have your guns isnt it?? Come on. Put your money where your mouth is and start shooting. This dictator wannabe needs to learn you guys aint gonna bend over.

If approximately half the US people oppose Obama as you guys have shown, than that should be more than enough people to start the rebellion now. Stock up your guns and start shooting before the dictator takes them from you. That would seem the logical thing to do if i were you guys.

P.S. I am not being sarcastic. Im trying to follow you guys train of thought.

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These guys have a serious case of keyboard courage. All tough talk on anonymous internet boards but inactive pansies in real life.

Hello again:

The problem is the righty's don't like to see democracy in action unless it's THEIR action. So, they snivel and call names like dictator and socialist and they say noooo a lot.

My 3 year old granddaughter acts more adult than that.

excon

You DO?? Dude! Bush broke it soooo badly, that it's going to take more than a couple months to fix. Give it a little time. Really.
Excon
I am concerned but not ready to start shooting. How about just raising a little verbal H. by writing some letters, directly to Obahma and let him know what we are worried about, see what his answers are and let our representatives know how we are feeling about all this hoopla.

I like Obahma just fine but he is human and "ruler" of our Great Country. That's got to be a power trip like none ever experienced before. He should be tempted if he's normal, but he is very intelligent too. If anyone objected when he steps a little out of line I bet he would step right back in. I think we should write letters and blogs and voice our objections. We have to save health care.
I didn't know they were talking about something as silly as gun control on top of all the things we have to worry about. When did they start that?

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Originally Posted by Skell

Hasn't happened down under here. Last time I checked Japan and Germany were doing just fine too. Along with almost the rest of the civilised world where gun control laws are in place.

Meanwhile I noticed another mass shooting in Miami overnight. 12 people was it??? Terrible shame.

But I appreciate the difference in culture and the ingrained train of thought with respect to guns in the US. No probs!!

But your effort to insist that us countries with gun control laws are somehow now under complete government control is just downright wrong.

Do you think we are a bunch of idiots down here or what? Completely incapable of defending any right we have because we aren't all walking around with shotguns down our pants??

No one here cares that they can't go shopping with a handgun tucked in their purse just in case they need it to shoot down some lunatic on a shooting spree. They don't care because we don't have the lunatics on the shooting spree to begin with. And we don't buy the BS that we need guns to defend our legal rights.

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Thank you for speaking up and setting them straight. It's the gun loving, gun toting, rifle in the back window of the truck types I was talking about being embarrassed about. Needing guns to defend our legal rights? Ridiculous,

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Originally Posted by Skell

Well ok then Steve. It must be time... If you actually feel that Obama is working towards dictatorship then get out the guns. Start a rebellion. Why not nip it in the bud early. Dont let it get to that. After all that is why you have your guns isnt it?? Come on. Put your money where your mouth is and start shooting. This dictator wannabe needs to learn you guys aint gonna bend over.

If approximately half the US people oppose Obama as you guys have shown, than that should be more than enough people to start the rebellion now. Stock up your guns and start shooting before the dictator takes them from you. That would seem the logical thing to do if i were you guys.

P.S. I am not being sarcastic. Im trying to follow you guys train of thought.

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Exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself.

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Originally Posted by Skell

I would argue your best guarantee to this is democracy and the election process. For a man of God you really have little faith in human kind and the country you live in if you feel that a killing machine is your best guarantee of protection.

I've said it before but this massive cultural difference you guys share to pretty much the rest of the industrialised / civilised world is something I actually feel sorry for you about.

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Just want you to know, not ALL Americans are as wacky as it seems by the posts you are seeing here.

Cozyk,

I know you aren't all wacky. Just 50% or so of you :)

In fact I've had a pretty detailed debate with Elliot and others on guns previously. Its here somewhere in the archives. Although I don't agree I've come to accept that our cultures have given us very differing mindsets on guns and freedom. We are at complete loggerheads on the issue and that's fine. Sadly guns seem as much apart of American life as McDonalds or Baseball.

Gun ownership is a right in your country under the constitution, which I'm sure will never be given up. And I kind of agree with Ex when he says that one shouldn't argue for one right whilst at the same time let another right be taken from you. I'm certainly no expert on the US constitution, but it was written in very different times to today and I find it hard to agree that guns should play such a major role in what essentially should be a peaceful country. Again, Elliot will argue that gun ownership is what keeps it peaceful. Again, I completely disagree. I need look no further to the multiple countries I have visited throughout the world with gun control laws that are completely safe and its people free and happy (Japan and Germany included).

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Originally Posted by Skell

Again, I completely disagree. I need look no further to the multiple countries I have visited throughout the world with gun control laws that are completely safe and its people free and happy (Japan and Germany included).

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Why is it that you conveniently ignore the crime problems in the UK? They are only one of the latest countries to ban private gun ownership and now only the criminals have guns. Riot sticks are no match for a 9MM.
When you take the gun rights of private citizens only the criminals will have guns.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Why is it that you conveniently ignore the crime problems in the UK? They are only one of the latest countries to ban private gun ownership and now only the criminals have guns. Riot sticks are no match for a 9MM.
When you take the gun rights of private citizens only the criminals will have guns.

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What do private gun-owning citizens do to prevent crime? Is there a vigilante group I don't know about? My NRA husband nearly shot a neighbor who came to the door at 11 p.m. to borrow a couple of eggs, and, in a half-awake state, whipped out his pistol from under the mattress when I came to bed one night. (That pistol is no longer loaded and is now in a safe place.) Based on my literature review, gun owners/guns in the home cause far more injuries and death to non-criminals than to criminals.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

What do private gun-owning citizens do to prevent crime? Is there a vigilante group I don't know about? My NRA husband nearly shot a neighbor who came to the door at 11 p.m. to borrow a couple of eggs, and, in a half-awake state, whipped out his pistol from under the mattress when I came to bed one night. (That pistol is no longer loaded and is now in a safe place.) Based on my literature review, gun owners/guns in the home cause far more injuries and death to non-criminals than to criminals.

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So true, I'm hearing about some "accidental" shooting just about every day. And I hate it when pro-gun people say... Guns don't kill people, people kill people.


Well, then there are too many idiotic people that own guns. If anything regulations should be stricter. I've seen and heard of way too many deaths due to these people.

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Originally Posted by 450donn

Why is it that you conveniently ignore the crime problems in the UK? They are only one of the latest countries to ban private gun ownership and now only the criminals have guns. Riot sticks are no match for a 9MM.
When you take the gun rights of private citizens only the criminals will have guns.

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The fact that you are an armed society doesn't seem to prevent crime in your country. If guns make people so safe then why is the US ranked higher than the UK in murders per capita not to mention most if not all other crimes?

I don't agree with your argument.

Cosyk
I do not believe gun control has anything to do with our discussion of presidential dictatorship. That shooting in Miami would have happened with or without gun control laws. And with or without gun control laws it was still a crime.

It sure would be nice if someone had a good idea of how to save the health care problem without turning to a Socialist government. What about a plan like Medicare that would give those who needed it healthcare, If they needed more than the basics, buy a supplemental policy. Anyone got any idea's?

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Originally Posted by lshadylady

What about a plan like Medicare that would give those who needed it healthcare, If they needed more than the basics, buy a supplemental policy.

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No one is talking socialism government.

I thought the whole idea already is to frame the healthcare system around Medicare. Those who need health care can buy into one of its plans (and yes, seniors DO pay something for it). If that person wants better/additional coverage, go supplemental with a private plan, just like is done now. Workers who are covered by their employer may continue in that plan, if they wish. There will be choices.

Meanwhile, the health insurance companies are suggesting that people should be subsidized so that they can afford private insurance. But who or what will do the subsidizing?

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Well OK then Steve. It must be time... If you actually feel that Obama is working towards dictatorship then get out the guns. Start a rebellion. Why not nip it in the bud early. Don't let it get to that. After all that is why you have your guns isn't it? Come on. Put your money where your mouth is and start shooting. This dictator wannabe needs to learn you guys isn't going to bend over.

If approximately half the US people oppose Obama as you guys have shown, then that should be more than enough people to start the rebellion now. Stock up your guns and start shooting before the dictator takes them from you. That would seem the logical thing to do if I were you guys.

P.S. I am not being sarcastic. Im trying to follow you guys train of thought.

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From our Declaration of Independence.


Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

We are not at the stage of absolute despotism yet and there are remedies still to change our government to one more our liking within the framework of our laws .

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I would argue your best guarantee to this is democracy and the election process.

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Yes it is and that is why we have not had that revolution . We are more than happy to work within the system .But gun ownership is part of that social compact. In dictatorships no one is permitted to own a gun.

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Originally Posted by Skell

Well ok then Steve. It must be time... If you actually feel that Obama is working towards dictatorship then get out the guns. Start a rebellion. Why not nip it in the bud early. Dont let it get to that. After all that is why you have your guns isnt it?? Come on. Put your money where your mouth is and start shooting. This dictator wannabe needs to learn you guys aint gonna bend over.

If approximately half the US people oppose Obama as you guys have shown, then that should be more than enough people to start the rebellion now. Stock up your guns and start shooting before the dictator takes them from you. That would seem the logical thing to do if i were you guys.

P.S. I am not being sarcastic. Im trying to follow you guys train of thought.

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Here we go with the "you guys" thing again. Which guys? The subject of this post was the silence among those that complained of Bush's tyranny now that Obama is vastly expanding the government's role. That he is doing so can't be denied and the silence among those Bush critics is deafening. That is the point of this thread I believe and what I addressed. I didn't make this about guns, but I'm not shy about defending our rights and the reasons behind them.

I agree that elections and the democratic process are the best and preferred remedy, but not the best 'guarantee.'