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Originally Posted by
Synnen
And the birth of Christ was reportedly approximately 2000 years ago. The last day of WWII in Europe (basically the end of the Nazi regime) was in 1945--63 years ago. The 95 theses of Dr. Martin Luther was in 1517 -- 490 years ago. The Council of Nicea was in 325 --1,683 years ago. Henry the VIII's separation from the Church in Rome was in 1534--474 years ago. I could go on and on.
What was the NATURE of those things as opposed to Crusades, Inquisitions and witch burnings? What Christians today are involved in Crusades, Inquisitions and witch burnings? Why the heck should we today pay the price for those ancient transgressions? I don't know a single witch-burner, we are not guilty of Inquisitions or Crusades. They are entirely irrelevant to today's Christian community and I will not stand for ANYONE connecting my Christian family to such atrocities. Wasn't it you who first mentioned FORGIVENESS in this thread? Where is your forgiveness for people who are not even guilty of the sins you mention? Shouldn't we at least have to commit the alleged transgression before we're tried and convicted? I'll agree we must remember those things and guard against them, but I am NOT going to pay the price for sins I haven't committed.
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Are you really going to sit there and tell me that these things have no relevance today?
*I* find Christian displays on public property to be offensive in the extreme. I get seriously ticked off when I go to a high school football game and there is a prayer beforehand. I went to church last year, on the request of my in-laws, and had to walk out because the message wasn't one of love, but of political one-upness, and of continuing to fight to have Christians get their way in the world. This was on Christmas Eve, by the way, when one would think that the message would be one of harmony and peace rather than dissention and pride.
So there is no freedom of speech, no right to dissent, no right to have a say in the affairs of this land for Christians? Are we not citizens, too?
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So Christ was crucified on a cross, 2000 years ago. The last witches were burned at the stake 216 years ago. If your memory is long---so is ours! Those of us who are Wicca, and practice modern witchcraft hold those men and women as martyrs--of COURSE we are going to bring it up! Christians still bring up the sacrifice that Christ made, don't they?
Relevance, Synnen, relevance. Since witch-burnings at the hands of 'Christians' have long ended, been condemned and repudiated, we should be released from the guilt you unfairly project on us. I feel no guilt whatsoever about any of those things so I'm fine, it would be to your benefit to forgive and move past long resolved issues. It would be rather silly to not remember Christ's WILLING sacrifice on OUR behalf since that is the entire basis for our faith, and that we believe He is God and is alive today, now wouldn't it?
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I was RAISED Christian. All of my family and my husband's family are Christian. I know some GREAT Christians. I'm just sick of having Christians claim their message is harmless when it is NOT.
Again, some supposed 'Christian' messages are not harmless, another thing which I have already acknowledged. I believe I said I have "no use" for such people, so how about a little credit here finally?
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For those of us NOT of your faith, those of us who have suffered at the hands of other Christians, ESPECIALLY those going back in history--yes, the nativity IS offensive. So is the cross. So what? Most of the time, we don't make a big stink about it, reasoning that if you can put up YOUR religious beliefs and symbols everywhere from your own front yard, to the Capitol building in Washington, to the roadsigns that advertise "Jesus is Lord" and "God loves ALL of His children, even the unborn", then we should be able to put up our beliefs too.
If these atheists want to put their sorry sign up in their front yard, on a roadside sign on private land, buy space on a billboard or buy ad time on TV, radio or print, more power to them. That's an entirely different situation.
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Want to know the sentiment that drives me the craziest? The one that makes me want to deface public property, because I feel so enraged that people don't see how offensive it is? It's those signs that advertise that adoption is better than abortion. "Adoption: The loving option" and "Choose life, not death! Adoption is the caring option!" Now---those might not be offensive to you, in the least, but they ARE to me. They make me angry and sad, and I want to buy up billboards that state the number of suicides, the number of women depressed, and the statistics on adoptive parents that break their word about keeping the adoption open.
Buy all the billboard space you want, that again is an entirely different situation - public and private property. I could be wrong but I don't know of any PUBLIC property that promotes adoption over abortion in that manner.
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What does all of this have to do with a "harmless" nativity scene? Nothing--except that OFFENSE IS IN THE EYE OF THE OFFENDED.
You are offended by the sign that says that ALL religion enslaves minds and hardens hearts. I'm offended by the signs that make it seem as though adoption isn't as bad as abortion, but you're still not "good enough" to be a parent if you choose it.
I don't disagree, but we are talking about what is allowed and what is appropriate on public, i.e. state, city, county or federal property. It is improper for the state to expressly offend a particular class of people. Post an appropriate message and I'm fine with it. How many times do I have to say that?
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You're offended that someone doubts your faith. I'm offended that your faith assumes that everyone sees the symbols of your religion innocuously.
You're absolutely, unequivocally wrong. I've been very clear about this, I'm offended that the State of Washington endorsed an expressed, written insult to not only my faith but me personally. I'm offended that some of you keep telling me I shouldn't be offended. But I am NOT offended that someone doubts my faith, and I'll defend your right to do so and say so, just not state approved attacks.
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Bottom line is that we're never going to agree.
Nope, but I've made numerous concessions. When will you?