Well, you have a fairly sensible guy like Tal saying he would happily vote for a communist, so what's left? If we elect an incompetent like Sanders or Warren, then we will richly deserve what we get. With all of his negatives, we better remember that we've rarely had it better economically in our history. We're energy independent (which I still can't get over), inflation is very, very low, and non-commie fed judges are being appointed. Our ignorant, spoiled electorate better get their heads screwed on straight and learn to appreciate what we have. I really fear that we have enjoyed freedom so long that now we just take it for granted.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

and you think McGovern ran pro war ? Nixon was President in 1972 and the Vietnam war was still hot. There are some parallels to 1972. The Dems had run the party establishment candidate in 1968 and locked out insurgents .To make amends the Dems created the McGovern commission .That commission changed party rules to punish traditional delegates . Last election the Dems locked out Bernie . Now they have a"Unity Review Commission" which will undoubtedly punish "super Delegates " . The party veered to the extreme left. The party lost the working class as they are well on their way to doing again with their anti-energy job positions in key swing states . What is sad is that by today's standards ,McGovern is a moderate Dem as the whole party has swung way left that now the socialists are the mainstream of the party and the party could very well be embracing the Marxist wing of socialism . You see what saved the Dems was that although McGovern was extreme; the rest of the party could argue that they were not extreme like McGovern(or at least they disguised it well) . That is why they did not suffer a loss of Congress. This year however ,the radicals have taken over the steering of the Democrat House. They forced the Speaker to do something she knows is potentially suicidal ;impeaching Trump without proving any criminality to his decisions .

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Like Nixon though the dufus has made some rather crazy moves and decisions that are a violation of law but no way would a repub ever admit it or publicly declare it, let alone speak out against it or pretend to seek the truth he has effectively hidden from the House. Yes the House failed and miserably, and the senate seems bound and determined to follow suit.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

I still can't come to grips with how wildly LEFT the Demos have become today. I never thought that I would see the party of my Mother, a lifelong "Roosevelt" Democrat, turn so abruptly and hard left. I don't think it happened during the Clinton years, even though Hillary led Bill around by the ear in terms of ideological lead. The turn had to come during Obama's years in Office. I think people forget, and many Demos don't even know, that Obama's said that his best friends were radicals and Marxist: When you come out in public and say something like that, it gives people and insight into HOW YOU THINK AND WHERE YOU STAND. Imagine if Trump came out and said that his best friends were Klansmen and Nazis? Would not everyone have and slobber knocking fit? So Obama turned the Democrat Party into a radical party that is heading to toward straight-up Marxism.

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The dems aren't wildly left, but they do have voices that lean heavy that way and are as part of the party process as the hard right wing of the repub party which has undergone it's own profound changes through the years. How do you ignore such a mirror image affect that has griped the whole country and not just one party. It's not our parents world any more in case you haven't noticed.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Well, you have a fairly sensible guy like Tal saying he would happily vote for a communist, so what's left? If we elect an incompetent like Sanders or Warren, then we will richly deserve what we get. With all of his negatives, we better remember that we've rarely had it better economically in our history. We're energy independent (which I still can't get over), inflation is very, very low, and non-commie fed judges are being appointed. Our ignorant, spoiled electorate better get their heads screwed on straight and learn to appreciate what we have. I really fear that we have enjoyed freedom so long that now we just take it for granted.

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I guess we should be grateful and accept the guy we have and deserve and not consider the good and the bad of that election decision. We can do better and strive to do so despite the good or bad. Sorry guys if I chose not to swallow your version of reality without question.

Talaniman: I just don't want the Democratic Party to become a far left radical party through and through....nor would I want the Republican Party to go the other way and become a Fascist Party clone: WE HAVE TO MAKE THE TWO PARTY SYSTEM WORK TO THE ADVANTAGE OF THE ENTIRE POPULATION, SINCE THE DEMOS AND REPUBS HAVE MANAGED TO MONOPLIZE THE PARTY SYSTEM! Its seems that is all we have to work with in the here and now. The country is more divided than it has ever been and the cause is RADICAL fringes of each party having a DISPPORTIONAL AMOUNT OF POWER COMPARED TO THE NUMBERS THEY REPRESENT. Why is that? Its because they scream loudest and say the most provocative things. It high time to cut that B.S. out and get back to the Tip O'Neal - Ronald Reagan type of relationship we once had in politics. I don't think that the environment we're fostering right now is conducive to anything good coming out of it. Do we want to wake up to the day when our U.S. Government is made up of Politburo and Political Czars? It will be too late for everything, then. A.O.C. and others like her are idealist who probably have the best intentions but they have read too much Saul Alinsky literature: They need to read the Constitution and learn about what has made the U.S. realize its historical exceptionalism.

Darn if I don't agree with what you have posted Vac! I see repubs as being hijacked by the right, and yes the same could happen by the dems but hasn't entirely yet but we have to see what the next election brings. We both may have to join forces against both parties. You up for that?

PS

AOC doesn't have the votes for everything she wants nor the standing or experience to get it. Just saying.

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Like Nixon though the dufus has made some rather crazy moves and decisions that are a violation of law but no way would a repub ever admit it or publicly declare it, let alone speak out against it or pretend to seek the truth he has effectively hidden from the House. Yes the House failed and miserably, and the senate seems bound and determined to follow suit.

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Haven't seen any proof of law breaking . I see the Dems making it a criminal offense for the President having different policies and exercising his role as CIC in executing such policies. The President's defense team shred the Dem argument in a short 2 hrs by pointing out that:
1. Presidents have in the past ,including this President ,delayed delivery of foreign aid for various reasons . The President had ordered an extensive review of our foreign aid with the goal of reducing it across the board .The review ended in August when the President concluded he would not have Congressional support for such cuts .
2. The Transcript of the conversation completely debunks most of the Dem charges ;especially issues like burden sharing and the fact that the other NATO nations were NOT contributing their share to Ukraine's defense .The President had complained about NATO burden sharing many times in the past .
3. That the anti-tank Javelin systems were NOT part of the aid package ,They were separate sales to Ukraine and they were not to be delivered until this year .This makes that ridiculous the claim that Ukrainians lost their lives because of the brief hold up of the aid .
4.There was no quid pro quo that could be found in the transcript or in the testimony of the Democrat witnesses . Most of them when asked said that there was none ;and also admitted that the Trump adm had been harder on Russia than the wet noodled spine Emperor . This part of their testimony as excluded by the Dem managers in their presentation
5. Also excluded by them was that Ukraine did not even know of the pause in the aide until Sept of last year 2 months after the call.
6.That the President had met with Zaleski at the UN General Assembly . The Dem witnesses said that he would like to meet with Trump in the White House but a meeting at some neutral site was also acceptable .

That was just day one . The President's team will taken on the Biden crime family and if such an investigation was and is justified . They will also say that it is entirely possible that Ukraine also interfered in the 2016 election in support of Evita .Shiff says that theory and the Biden corruption were debunked . But the Dems offered no proof of that in their 23 hrs of charges .No one is saying it was a massive state wide effort . But there is no doubt that some Ukraine politicians and officials did . Their release of the 'black ledger ' that ultimately decided the fate of Manafort (Trump's one time campaign manager ) was indeed interference. And who exposed it to the US ? Well the NY Slimes itself .
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/15/u...ck-ledger.html

Well let's just forget this failure to notify congress of the hold, or WB complaint!!

a technicality if indeed he did violate the statute .OMB used an apportionment device called a “footnote” to freeze it on July 25, and the office renewed the freeze 8 times to allow for an “interagency process to determine the best use of such funds.”. I'm sure that will be brought up tomorrow or before the defense rests .It is the role of OMB to ensure funds are being spent efficiently . You will not deny that there was still concerns about Ukraine corruption. An election of a reformer and a favorable parliament did not change that fact .The new government certainly did not have time to address the corruption concerns .

Voldermort (aka Eric Ciaramella ); The whistle blower who shall not be named (who is not really a whistleblower because he does not have whistleblower protections )….well his complaint is bunk unless he can prove that the transcript released is a fabrication .But he can't because he was not the only person who listened in on the conversation ...and others who did corroborated the text of the transcript.

Besides ,he had an agenda :
https://www.realclearinvestigations....mp_121701.html

Well we know that interagency review was a crock, as well as the footnote freeze that they wanted kept a secret from the congress. We also know that Parnas informed the Ukraine government in harsh a tone as possible to comply or lose money and prestige. So lets not pretend they knew nothing, or felt no pressure from this scheme. Zelenskyi probably did his best to put on a brave public face, and keep some semblance of dignity and self respect.

We all know full well what happens to a repub who steps out of line and votes for witnesses, even if the public wants a fair trail, witnesses and documents. Be interesting to see what happens if we don't get it. The disgusting part is finding out the July 25th phone call was but the latest installment of this full pressure campaign to get the Ukrainians to capitulate to doing the dufus a favor.

Believe whatever you please Tom, but I want complete verification of the full facts. So does the public.

Talaniman: Well, darn! I can't stand the NEOCONs and you can't stand the far lefties....hmmm: THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED A 3RD PARTY THAT I HAVE ADVOCATED BEFORE AND YOU SAID NO!

No, A.O.C. doesn't have the votes.....but, man, does she have the LOOKS!!! But I digress!

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Zelenskyi probably did his best to put on a brave public face, and keep some semblance of dignity and self respect.

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that argument makes zero sense . He could seal the deal by going public and saying he was indeed pressured and that there was a quid pro quo. ie throw Trump under the bus. But he still maintains there was no pressure. I don't give a rats a$s what

Parnas says . He is completely discredited .

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We all know full well what happens to a repub who steps out of line and votes for witnesses

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I want witnesses since they were denied to the President in the House impeachment investigation as well as a smidgeon of due process. Yes I want Hunter and quid pro Joe to testify under oath . I want Shiff to explain his fabrication of the transcript at the beginning of the House hearings (which he was content to stand by until the release of the transcript. (then he dismissed his lies as parody ) . I want him to explain how he maintained he had the evidence of Trump colluding with the Russians which he maintained until the Mueller report rebuked his lies . I want him under oath to repeat the lies about this Ukraine thing while under oath .

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Talaniman: Well, darn! I can't stand the NEOCONs and you can't stand the far lefties....hmmm: THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED A 3RD PARTY THAT I HAVE ADVOCATED BEFORE AND YOU SAID NO!

No, A.O.C. doesn't have the votes.....but, man, does she have the LOOKS!!! But I digress!

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I don't think a 3rd party works at all at least not in the current environment, but I admit getting tired of this rigged system and how easily it gets subverted and corrupted. You want a 3rd party? Better get the right people that attracts others and the right message we all want to hear and get behind or all you will have is a vote magnet that helps one of the main parties standard bearer.

Been watching repubs sink into the cesspool since the establishment repubs took over the Tea Party mantle, and corrupted it until the dufus just walked in and took over because the right was tired of the establishment BS, and being left in the cold. Now he runs it like the dictator we always feared and does whatever he wants the way he wants it so yeah right now a 3rd party SOUNDS good but I admit desperation and frustration with the status quo.

Considering Australia whenever that darn drought is over!

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Originally Posted by tomder55

that argument makes zero sense . He could seal the deal by going public and saying he was indeed pressured and that there was a quid pro quo. ie throw Trump under the bus. But he still maintains there was no pressure. I don't give a rats a$s what [LEFT]Parnas says . He is completely discredited .

I want witnesses since they were denied to the President in the House impeachment investigation as well as a smidgeon of due process. Yes I want Hunter and quid pro Joe to testify under oath . I want Shiff to explain his fabrication of the transcript at the beginning of the House hearings (which he was content to stand by until the release of the transcript. (then he dismissed his lies as parody ) . I want him to explain how he maintained he had the evidence of Trump colluding with the Russians which he maintained until the Mueller report rebuked his lies . I want him under oath to repeat the lies about this Ukraine thing while under oath .

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Sounds good call them ALL! I just want to see the dufus's head explode if the repubs dared such a thing against his expressed orders.

during the Clintoon impeachment witnesses testified by deposition and both sides cherry picked the video apart . It was a completely futile and stupid exercise that had no impact on the verdict ;but wasted time before the outcome .

Me ? I am in favor of prolonging this through the New Hampshire primary compelling the Dem Senators running to stay in Washington.

Middle of June so we can count the meltdowns.

The NeoCons were the worse thing that ever happened to the Republican Party and the Tea Party got taken over by their surrogates. Likewise, I see the same thing happening in the Democratic Party with the far lefties and the other problem is the SUPERPAC crap: How can you be a Party of The People when you have SuperPacs and, thereby, become the best friend money can buy...its like cozying up to a crocodile: they smile right up to the time they bite your head off!

Dark undisclosed money is dangerous!

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Dark undisclosed money is dangerous!

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said AOC the hypocrite

https://nypost.com/2020/01/11/aoc-sw...g-her-own-pac/

witnesses Now I suppose the Dems are going to redouble their efforts to get Bolton to testify after the Slimes convenient "bombshell " . Here is the deal . Even if everything reported is true that he squeezed Ukraine ;nothing happened ,no investigation ,only a temporary delay in delivering aid that Ukraine did not know was being hld up ........and nothing that was impeachable.

Ukraine didn’t know about the hold until Politico reported it .AND their report does not prove a 2020 election motive. It is hilarious to me that there are people who think Trump withholding money from the Ukraine will be the end of his Presidency. No one cares outside the swamp .

Bolton left(or was fired ) because he had policy differences with Trump and now he wants to sell a book . That is the only way the Slimes bombshell can be read . He just posted pre-order for his book on Amazon.

I think your theory will face a very stiff test Tom, especially if there are MORE bombshells out there ready to go off.

how many "bomb shell " revelations has Trump survived ? Guess who clears books by former NSC officials ……

Army Lt. Col. Yevgeny (Eugene ) Vindman ;brother of Captain America ,

Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman. Wonder who leaked it to the Slimes ? ..hmmmm .