What we had before was a crap sandwich. Prejudicial rhetoric aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
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What we had before was a crap sandwich. Prejudicial rhetoric aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Nah Gallup's latest poll found that only 22% of uninsured Americans say they plan to get insurance through the exchanges.So the whole system was destroyed to cater to a very small segment of the population.
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/.../?spt=rln&or=2
Obamacare was sold as a way to get everyone health insurance. In the end, it is likely going to destroy the health insurance industry so that no one has it.
Well won't your protected medico's have to deal with reality thenQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Here's the deal... to insure the alleged and questionable total of 30 million Americans who lacked health insurance ,over 50 million Americans will lose there's ,and will be forced to weigh the choice of paying for a much more expensive plan ,or opt to pay the penalty... oops I mean tax.
WASHINGTON: Analysis: Tens of millions could be forced out of health insurance they had | White House | McClatchy DC
Depends on the group you belong to. If you were part of the 30 m then you would probably think it is a good idea. No doubt you are part of the 50 m who think it is a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Most of them didn't want it anyway. They are the ones ,the so called young 'invincibles' that Obamacare screws, even as it is dependent on their participation. They had already made the calculation that they were healthy ,and their incomes would be better spent on other luxuries like starting their adult life. The very few who were legitimately falling through the cracks could've been dealt with without destroying what we had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuttyd
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
No one is invincible. In other words, you are saying these people can't have things both ways so they are prepared to take the risk that nothing major will go wrong with their health.
In all honesty what sort of justification are you trying to put forward. Of course it is possible to have it both ways.
I'm saying they exercised their right of choice.
So that makes it OK then?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Tom, do you want the tired horses or no horses at all? You have a right to choose.
It's a scam. The gvt cut Medicare and is depending on the young and healthy to pony up and make up the difference.
Tom that doesn't cut it. There is absolutely no way that a medically advanced society such as yours should offer up any sort of Hobson's choice, whether it be Medicare or; as in your post, a choice of lifestyle or health insurance.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The REAL problem is that state mandates and other factors like tort law make health care unaffordable to the young. Why should they be covered for sh+t they don't want or need ? When libs talk about affordable health care they mean subsidies that other people pay for . In this case ,it's a wealth transfer from these kids who are not making a lot of money and are trying to start their lives, to the elders who often have more than enough resources to care for themselves . That is and has always been one of the fatal flaws of social insurance .
The real problem is blame shifting. How about you put down your ideological lens for the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Young people are being forced to move from the 'old system' whereby they at least had a choice between lifestyle or health insurance ( according to your post anyway).
Now under the new system they have no choice at all. It is like I said before, do you want the tired horses or no horses at all? I just can't understand why you can't do better. Well, actually I do know.
Better would be getting the government out of it . I don't have the time to go back to my past posts ,but I have already demonstrated that when a medical procedure is not covered by insurance ,and subject to market forces by competing physicians ,the prices are affordable . What the left feeds us is this bs about the possibility that things can be 'free'. Subsidies are just wealth transfers when you break them down to their essentials.
You won't put that lens down, will you? Tom, going over your pervious posts will add nothing in terms of our discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
You have not addressed any of the issues I have raised.
And still the emperor lies ,even after he allegedly apologized for lying...
Title I. Quality, Affordable Health Care for All Americans | The White HouseQuote:
For Americans with insurance coverage who like what they have, they can keep it. Nothing in this act or anywhere in the bill forces anyone to change the insurance they have, period.
The emperor has no shame.
Tutt he is only capable of addressing his own issues from within an eighteenth century lensQuote:
Originally Posted by Tuttyd
He doesn't understand the principle of mutual assurance, where you contribute over time towards the expenses you may incur because of catastrophy, this is the very basis of insurance, not that you reap an immediate benefit but you will reap a defined benefit upon the happening of a defined event
What's with this spell checker that is only capable of capitalising at the beginning of sentences, if you are going to do something don't do it the US way of SNAFU which obviously carried over into your health system
Nice try but that isn't how the social insurance system has evolved . It's a generational wealth transfer with a Ponzi scheme built in.Quote:
He doesn't understand the principle of mutual assurance, where you contribute over time towards the expenses you may incur because of catastrophy, this is the very basis of insurance, not that you reap an immediate benefit but you will reap a defined benefit upon the happening of a defined event
Tired horses or no horses is sure a funny way of putting it when the facts show that not only are there no horses to do anything this system as it has been created (Obamacare) ends up pulling the horses along with everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuttyd
Lets not forget that this system was designed by the very system it was suppose to regulate and it represents a huge boon for insurance companies as well as more levels for the government to be directly involved in your life by way of law.
Actually we understand the system very well of mutual assurance as that is how home and auto insurance works here. The biggest difference between that and heath insurance is when you want to purchase home or auto you get to choose and it is a needs based system. But with health insurance its not needs based nor can you bypass it. And the monies that many policy holders are getting hit with has nothing to do with actual policy rates. It has to do with how much handout they are to recieve based on how much money they make. So to me wealth transfer is iheirent in the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
P.S. > If your having trouble or do not want the spell checker you can now go to your "options" page in your profile page and turn it off if you like.
I'm trying to explain to Tom that health insurance is not a ponzi scheme or a wealth transfer, OK, this differs for other insurance because you have a third party involved, and there, if anywhere, you have socialisation, with the government meeting part of the premium and defining the benefits but it is no more a wealth transfer than social securityQuote:
Originally Posted by cdad
Thanks, I'll try thatQuote:
P.S. > If your having trouble or do not want the spell checker you can now go to your "options" page in your profile page and turn it off if you like.
I rest my case . It may not be one in theoretical concept ...but it certainly has evolved into one . There is not a young American today who thinks that SS will be available to them when they retire . We just don't make babies like we used to ;especially when we have already wacked 50 million of them .The trust fund is full of IOUs and there aren't enough at the bottom of the pyramid to fund it . In fact ;it looks like a reverse top heavy pyramid with the baby boomers retiring as we speak.Quote:
but it is no more a wealth transfer than social security
Back in the day we thought SS wasn't going to be there for us either. We were wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
you see Tom you can't have low taxation and Social Security and you need to be kicking the arses of those lazy politicians of yours from Maine to New Mexico so they can do some real work and sort the mess out. If your baby boomers have been doing it right they will have their own schemes anyway, after all, isn't that the land of opportunity. No what has happened is you have been overtaken by the BULLSHlT
Its far from as gloomy a picture as Tom paints Clete.
Tal we are all aware of the problems of an aging population, your system is not alone in groaning under the weight. What it comes down to is making sure that the population is making investments for the future no matter how difficult it seems. The ME generation does want to think about the future and Tom is defending them with all this objection to SS, health Insurance, etc, but I for one am sick of making a wealth transfer to the young, let the lazy little buggers get off their arses and earn for themselves
oh in other words ,people should be planning for their own retirements . But that's the problem when you nurture this nanny state mentality .People stop being self sufficient .
yes that's the idea whether it is a government scheme tied into taxation or a personal scheme mandated by government, in other words no free rides and that goes for health insurance tooQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The wealth transfer to the young is a MYTH. Debt and low wages but no evidence of wealth. Retirement planning takes MONEY and I doubt middle income folks will ever squirrel away enough and all we need is another bank robbery on Wall Street to wipe out the few bucks you do save.
Nobody is talking about fixing the broken capitalist business model that has transferred all the worlds wealth to the very few. Trickle down economics has been replaced by austerity. The nanny state hides the oligarchy, and job creators are a marketing strategy. That's where the true transfer of wealth resides.
Tal I have to call you on this one, that is total BULLSHlT. Apparently I am among the top 5% of wealthy in my country because I own my own home, have no debts and have some retirement savings. I was middle income, if there is such a thing, though never among to top earners and I did all that in the last ten years of my working life, having gone through a divorce that stuffed any financial planning I had done. The wealth transfer to the young I am talking about is allowing them a free ride by not insisting they make contribution to health care, to social security and retirement planning and to meet their share of taxation so they pay for the economic resource they enjoy and use up.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Sure there are the super rich, a race apart as they have always been, users and usurpers the lot of them, but forget them and look to the average person, they have to change the paradigm they live in or the poor will always be with us
All due respect but comparing what's going on in Australia to what's going on here in the USA is apple to oranges. Talk to me when you have to split your resources between 360 million people.
You are doing good, but we have far more cats to herd.
Yes Tal I know you are different, we long ago found herding sheep was easier, less bullshlt and no meowing about me, you see that was your mistake thinking you need 360 million people, you got the people and you got their problems, we got 360 million sheep, well maybe not quite that many these days, and they don't take up the resources like cats do.
We can't get done what you get done and yet we seem to do what we do better, we have learned to do with less. I expect the cats are the problem, must be a shortage of cat wranglers
It's the car fur that keeps sticking to our clothes and getting into our food plus the hair balls blowing into the corners.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
so more work for cleaners then, my daughter has a Labrador like thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Its not like we needed 360 million people, but that's what freedom is about, the right to breed, and multiply. If the rich guys would stop playing hide the dollar, there would be plenty of resources to go around, and when the civil social war is over, back to work we go.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
You shouldn't listen to TParty gloom and doom, we don't. Just grab 'em by the legs and pull 'em along. Be careful, they do kick.
Not interested in ultraconservatives, Tal anymore than I am interested in ultraprogressives. the rich have to be tamed and taxation is the way to do that, they have to learn that accumulation should be as the result of investment not hoarding so the tax system should lean towards giving incentives for investment and punishing super profits. There are some who think that the rich are generous but they do nothing from alteristic motives. They like to give handouts rather than contribute taxesQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Simply amazing. It's like Kramer is running the country and you people think he's a genius. You promised us muffin tops and gave us stumps. Put us in line with a promise of this fantastic soup only to hear "no soup for you" while making that can of generic condensed split pea unaffordable and telling us it's far superior. Don't even make me go into the whole library cop thing or how you've turned us into a nation of Georges.
You want to use examples from a sitcom about nothing, The soup nazi is the Tparty and it's cronies with their no jobs for you mantra and what you have is a whole lot of Marie's looking for their douches. You are a nation run by Georges, just look at your Congress, you don't have Kramer in the White House, you have Jerry, the comedian who talks about nothingQuote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
If you're going to try and top me at last make sense.
Not interested in topping you just playing along with the themeQuote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
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