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And what replaced it? Years of glory and joy? No, 150 years of lynchings, Jim Crow, segregation, discrimination, and systemic, institutional racism. For a supposed teacher, you exhibit an enormous historical ignorance.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Never said it was all peaches and cream. It was hard for a lot of people, but that has been largely corrected, so it's time for each person to get busy and make something of his/her life.
Largely corrected says the 60 year old white guy. A long way to go says the 60 year old black guy. Recent events shows the 60 year old black guy may be right. The diverse protests across the land say so too. When the words of the founding documents ring true for everyone then we have finally lived up to those aspirations and everybody can get busy building a life that they can be proud of.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
In the meantime pay your bill so we can get beyond all that history of cruelty and atrocities. You can't sweep it under a rug like it didn't happen. Nor even claim it's the past when it's still happening.
Be specific. What do you want to see change?Quote:
A long way to go says the 60 year old black guy.
I wish I was 60.
Unbelievable description of the 400-year black experience in America.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
After 17 years working in the black ghetto, you have apparently learned nothing from those 17 years. I find it hard to credit you with those years when you can post something so outrageous as you have done above.
"never peaches and cream" - "hard for a lot of people" - "largely corrected" - "time to get busy" ...............
The mind boggles!
I'll let you go work in inner city schools for even five days and then come back and we can talk about, that is once you have received a little education. Get off your couch and go do something productive.
Before I answer, what have you heard, NOT observed in your 17 years in the inner city from those black people. What changes do THEY want?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Athos has proved quite well that you don't have to "get off the couch" to LISTEN to people.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
PS-I know we are closer to 70 than 60! LOL, I deleted the "something" after 60 to make me feel better this morning. 8D
I would say they wanted to be treated fairly and with respect, to have greater opportunity, to be able to be safe on their own streets and homes.Quote:
Before I answer, what have you heard, NOT observed in your 17 years in the inner city from those black people. What changes do THEY want?
Athos has proven he listens to Athos. Experience counts a lot more to me than talk.
Yeah, 60 does sound better than 60 something. Good point!
Probably the biggest lesson I have learned in life is that given the choice between changing me and changing others, my best bet by far is to change me. As far as my own life goes, I does waste much time in trying to get others to adjust to me.
As usual you have nothing to say when you get caught in a demonstrably idiotic post - except diversionary insults.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
It's time for you to get your head out of the dufus' arse. You got it so far up there, it might be permanant.
all of your time here is devoted to exactly that, stop fooling yourselfQuote:
As far as my own life goes, I does waste much time in trying to get others to adjust to me.
You must learn to read much more carefully, Clete. You're being careless. The key phrase was, "As far as my own life goes." What you guys think means very little to me on a personal level. It effects my life none at all. These discussions have to do with national matters, or just issues of truth. It's more on the level of exchanging ideas.
Athos, if you want to be listened to, then get off your couch and actually go do something useful and productive in the inner city of wherever you live. Until then, it's just a load of weak opinion. And stop your shameless copying. Now you're copying Tal! Have an original thought.
BINGO! Wondering if you can listen! I feel better about you. We share a skill in being able to piss people off don't we? 8)Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I learned this lesson the hard way for sure, but giving people time to adjust to you is a virtue in my view and gave me time to understand myself and learn to understand others.Quote:
Probably the biggest lesson I have learned in life is that given the choice between changing me and changing others, my best bet by far is to change me. As far as my own life goes, I does waste much time in trying to get others to adjust to me.
Right now at this point in my life it irks me most and what I would change is stop people from peeing on my head and believing I deserve it! I accomplish that by standing tall enough to look them in the eye and say "I ain't going for it". If they back off fine! If not then I DEAL with it.
You already know I don't like liars and bullies, and will NEVER back down from that challenge. Hope that answers your question, because if you leave people be, they will handle their own business without others exploiting, suppressing or oppressing them for their own gain. Especially not from our own institutions we depend on, so we can live up to the goals as written in our founding documents, and build that more perfect union.
I'm heartened by the genuine dialogue that appears to be taking place for the first time in America. As shown on the cable TV channels, both black and white are protesting together and honest communication is starting. It's apparent whites need to understand the black experience in more realistic ways than in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
It is to be hoped that much good will come out of the three horrific examples of anti-black police brutality reported in May (including the ex-policeman and his son) that is continuing to shock the world.
Ex-NFL player Emmanuel Acho has started a dialogue on video which was on CNN this morning and promises to be of great value. One of many, I hope.
https://barrettsportsmedia.com/2020/...h-a-black-man/
We could have started that dialogue years ago especially after Colin Kaepernick took a knee to highlight the subject. Guess we weren't ready.
Had to use a different link Athos because of virus issues.
https://www.cbsnews.com/video/ex-nfl...h-a-black-man/
Very articulate you brother.
Not everybody went along with the symbolism of the national anthem.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
The "knee on the neck" video touches anybody who is a human being.
Why not start it here? I'd still like to know, specifically, what changes you want to see take place, Tal.Quote:
We could have started that dialogue years ago especially after Colin Kaepernick took a knee to highlight the subject. Guess we weren't ready.
So it was actually two. But at any rate, we can also hope to see some dialogue about the 400 or so black people murdered in May by other black people. We can hope they do not die in vain. Perhaps we can include the many businesses burned to the ground by rioters whose innocent owners, a large number of whom were black, are now bankrupt, or we can discuss the shooting and abuse of policemen just doing their jobs, or the damage inflicted upon an already fragile economy. Perhaps those issues deserve discussion??Quote:
It is to be hoped that much good will come out of the three horrific examples of anti-black police brutality reported in May (including the ex-policeman and his son) that is continuing to shock the world.
Three.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You actually enjoy having your head up the dufus' arse, don't you?Quote:
But at any rate, we can also hope to see some dialogue about the 400 or so black people murdered in May by other black people. We can hope they do not die in vain. Perhaps we can include the many businesses burned to the ground by rioters whose innocent owners, a large number of whom were black, are now bankrupt, or we can discuss the shooting and abuse of policemen just doing their jobs, or the damage inflicted upon an already fragile economy. Perhaps those issues deserve discussion??
Thank you for that well reasoned, civil contribution. Now, anyone with anything intelligent to say?
We talked about taking the knee when it happened, but these latest events are but extensions of issues that went unaddressed for an awful long time so I think we start with accountability from law enforcement, so it's no longer swept under a rug, and end that abuse of destroying dignity and respect for those that should be served and protected. Laws and policies and practices that needed reform should be done. I've expressed extensively on these pages of other economic abuses heaped on my peeps through the institutional racism, and deeper, a class segregation that affects white folks as it does black folks, chief among them that trickle down economic model that puts a persons self worth and value into the hands of rich guys who hoard money. That in itself stops cold the necessary circulation of money required to eliminate poverty and strengthen a middle class that is tenuous at best. The real job creators through demand.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You deal with black on black crime most effectively by dealing with poverty, and lack of opportunity pervasive in segregated societies (neighborhoods). If property taxes fund schools then do you think more black people owning a home is the key to have better schools? In this way a homeowner not a renter can better demand good schools for their kids and have the money to maintain a neighborhood against the gangs that grow from poverty running buck wild in the streets.Quote:
So it was actually two. But at any rate, we can also hope to see some dialogue about the 400 or so black people murdered in May by other black people. We can hope they do not die in vain.
That's more empowering than an out of town cop coming in kicking butts because he can't tell the criminal from the citizen and is scared less for his life, just like the citizens. In addition why just have strange white cops cracking heads on strange black heads? Yeah that breeds a lot of trust and commitment doesn't it?
When I see a white cop cracking heads and killing black people, I always remember that could be me or mine instead of a stranger. What do you feel? The dirt bag had it coming? Hope not. That's the problem with racists. They don't see a human, but a criminal to abuse for a crime, so they stop, frisk, detain at will! Then there's the justice system where the average black guy can't even afford bail, so languishes in jail which does nobody any good.
Be careful dude don't get me started about the people in jail for jaywalking or some other nonsense charge, like a roach in his pocket.
Some of the looters are angry for whatever reason, some are criminals which. lets be clear have nothing to do with the peaceful protestors, and if you're even suggesting it's the peaceful protesters fault that people riot and loot, then maybe stopping the reason for the protesting would stop looting and rioting better than cops!Quote:
Perhaps we can include the many businesses burned to the ground by rioters whose innocent owners, a large number of whom were black, are now bankrupt, or we can discuss the shooting and abuse of policemen just doing their jobs, or the damage inflicted upon an already fragile economy. Perhaps those issues deserve discussion??
Whose fault is it really that nobody listened and did NOTHING about it?
That was a lot. You mentioned school funding, but numerous examples show that school funding is generally not the problem. The D.C. schools are extremely well funded, but perform very poorly. In our area, the city schools are much better funded, and very low performing.
I don't think anyone is in jail for jaywalking. Relatively few people are jailed for drug use. It would be good to see the issue of bail discussed. I would think it depends on what the charge is and the person's past criminal history, if any.
I don't think there is ever, ever any excuse for someone to destroy property belonging to someone else. It should always be treated as low-class, criminal behavior and never, never justified.
What specific laws would you like to see changed?
A horrific video is worth a thousand words and actions. Did you know it was a vet who suggested Colin take a knee rather than sit the bench? Taking a knee is a sign of respect. Noticed the cops kneeling with protestors? An act of respect, unity, and understanding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Taking a knee would not be a sign of respect when the National Anthem is being played.
I still hope you will outline what specific laws need to be changed.
That's you're opinion not mine which is as valid as yours, and I did outline my changes and they need to be codified nationally. Did you know that choke and strangleholds were NOT banned by many states and localities. We can change that right now! Even where it is banned cops still use it with impunity!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
https://reason.com/2016/07/08/police...olicies-choke/
Think the dufus and all his outrage would get with that? I don't.
Not sure they should be. If I'm in a fight for my life with a criminal, I would like to have all the advantages I can have. Now once the suspect is down and cuffed, then yeah, the fight's over then.Quote:
Did you know that choke and strangleholds were NOT banned by many states and localities. We can change that right now! Even where it is banned cops still use it with impunity!
Well we have two videos of people choked out by cops after they were down and said they couldn't breathe, one in cuffs. 8 minutes is a LONG time to choke a guy. Wonder about any other such incidences not be video taped or where cops turned off the body cams. Another thing that should change...fire a cop who engages after they turn those cams off.
https://twitter.com/davidbegnaud/sta...355810818?s=21
You're correct about the respect shown by Colin's taking a knee. He was referencing police brutality while the national anthem/(flag) played. The majority consensus (at least the NFL fans) seemed to be that he was being disrespectful to the national anthem/(flag).Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
A dialogue on race begins with understanding/discussing/preventing excessive police violence against blacks who are often unarmed and peaceable as several videos have shown over the past few years. Not a few blacks have been murdered by police, often later exonerated by white juries on flimsy defense arguments - "I feared for my life" - as the young unarmed black man was running away before he was shot in the back.
A word to the wise -- there are members here who falsely say they are interested in a dialogue. They are NOT. What they ARE interested in is disagreeing/debunking whatever others may bring up that doesn't fit in with their biases. They do not search for solutions to ancient problems. Rather, they wish to confront others searching for solutions with their own criticisms of black culture that are the usual positions of white supremacists.
Isn't that what I said about choke holds??? What's the disagreement?Quote:
Well we have two videos of people choked out by cops after they were down and said they couldn't breathe, one in cuffs. 8 minutes is a LONG time to choke a guy. Wonder about any other such incidences not be video taped or where cops turned off the body cams. Another thing that should change...fire a cop who engages after they turn those cams off.
As to the bodycams, they certainly should be on. My understanding on this, and it could be wrong, is that the bodycams stay off when the officer is in the car since it would not be useful to film the steering wheel. But at any rate, they certainly should be on once the officer steps out of the car. If I was a cop, I'd WANT mine on.
Relax, I could actually see one cop defending his life, but that hasn't been the case to my knowledge. More so its baffling that multiple cops would need a choke hold or multiple shots to bring down an unarmed person on their own property, or anywhere else for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That is a good question, but it's worthwhile to note that those cases are very infrequent. Now the 150 black people who are murdered every every week, unnoticed, never spoken about, and depressingly ignored by practically everyone, is a constant that we should respond to.Quote:
More so its baffling that multiple cops would need a choke hold or multiple shots to bring down an unarmed person on their own property, or anywhere else for that matter.
Don't you think that black on black crime should be responded to just like any other crime in America? Don't you agree that police brutality is more frequent than is reported, if reported but has been a generational cry in the black community. Just because it hasn't reached your ears and awareness doesn't mean it doesn't happen as we say, so stop comparing and start LISTENING. Or maybe you have heard this cry for years and dismissed it because no videos capture it.
I'll assume you know what a food desert is in an urban community . Minneapolis had a bunch of them already . They can add 8 more neighborhoods since the riots and looting in support of the George Floyd murder protests .
https://www.marketplace.org/2020/06/...rts-overnight/Quote:
There’s a 6-mile long commercial corridor in South Minneapolis called Lake Street, and it has been destroyed.
“We no longer have pharmacies in our community,” said ZoeAna Martinez, who works for the Lake Street Council, a business association. “We no longer have gas stations as well. Our largest grocery stores are also gone,” Martinez said. “Right now, our community, we live in a food desert, which happened overnight.”
Add to that ,public transportation is down and the morons in the City Council are seriously considering defunding the police dept . Who in their right mind would make the investment to open again in a place where they are not guaranteed the basic protections required ?
Typical conservative rhetoric, you need those head busting cops to keep the local sheeple in order and the whole black community is infested with criminals. Great job you've done serving and protecting. Not a peep from you on cleaning out the racists bad cops you send into those neighborhoods though. Why is that? The cop who killed Floyd was a training officer with two neebies showing them how it's done.
Address that since that's what this is about. Spare me the excuses to keep those attitudes antics and behaviors going. The world is watching.
500 businesses in Minneapolis were destroyed ,looted ,vandalized . Yeah those are the innocent victims that concern me.
Yeah the world is watching .
https://www.marketplace.org/wp-conte...reen.jpg?w=600
What the world is seeing is the manifestation of 50 years and $ trillions in failed progressive urban policies .
"500 businesses in Minneapolis were destroyed ,looted ,vandalized" by mostly WHITE opportunists (look at the videos and photos).
I did not bring up race in either of my comments but you and tal did . Antifa ?
They added the graffiti 'I can't breathe' for emphasis .
So if the facts don't support you, you just assume it is worse than is being reported? On what basis?Quote:
Don't you agree that police brutality is more frequent than is reported, if reported but has been a generational cry in the black community. Just because it hasn't reached your ears and awareness doesn't mean it doesn't happen as we say, so stop comparing and start LISTENING.
No one said that or anything close to it. Honestly, if there is any justice to be found anywhere in this world, your house and property will be next. Then we can listen to you shedding tears about how the police that you despise so much did not arrive on time.Quote:
Typical conservative rhetoric, you need those head busting cops to keep the local sheeple in order and the whole black community is infested with criminals.
Idle speculation.Quote:
"500 businesses in Minneapolis were destroyed ,looted ,vandalized" by mostly WHITE opportunists (look at the videos and photos).
Because at the end of the day you go home to your little community, but black people stay in theirs. Who should we believe about what goes on in whose community?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Don't hold your breathe. For the record I've never said I hated cops, just the racists bad ones that do exist. I want THEM out, don't YOU? Why not?Quote:
No one said that or anything close to it. Honestly, if there is any justice to be found anywhere in this world, your house and property will be next. Then we can listen to you shedding tears about how the police that you despise so much did not arrive on time.
I absolutely do want them out, but I'm careful to not make wild statements like this one that gives the impression I hate cops. "Typical conservative rhetoric, you need those head busting cops to keep the local sheeple in order and the whole black community is infested with criminals."Quote:
For the record I've never said I hated cops, just the racists bad ones that do exist. I want THEM out, don't YOU? Why not?
Which is why we keep statistics and use data instead of relying on our impressions and emotions.Quote:
Because at the end of the day you go home to your little community, but black people stay in theirs. Who should we believe about what goes on in whose community?
Tal, just for the record, I do understand some of your protests. For most of our history, black people's lives have been less valued than the lives of whites, and some of that has carried over to this time. There are people who are prejudiced against minorities, and there is the very occasional (in my view) instances of serious police misconduct, so I get that. Where we differ is in how much responsibility the black community bears for some of the problems they face, and which of those problems are truly wide-spread and very serious versus which ones are a good bit less so.
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