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Fair enough.Quote:
Not a complaint just an observation.
You might very well be right about that. And when the bill comes due, it's going to look even darker than it does now.Quote:
We may claim to have the best system in the world, but this virus has taught us things can change really fast even for the big dog on the block. Will we learn and work to do better? Not so far we have not. Chances are it gets worse before we get a chance to get back what we had.
If we cannot figure out a way to manage our economy, debts included, then we need better managers. I see this as an opportunity to get better, a challenge so to speak, to make good on all that glory talk we've been doing since the last world war!
I agree it's put up or shut up time, unless you're afraid of the dark.
Never let a crisis go to waste .Quote:
I see this as an opportunity to get better, a challenge so to speak, to make good on all that glory talk we've been doing since the last world war!
Going deeper into already titanic debt with no end in sight is never an opportunity to get better.
Well trump hasn't let this one go to waste, he has accused china of a clandestine attack on the US, he has spent trillions, although it is not clear on what, he has closed borders, alienated other nations and been fact checked on twitterQuote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
you just woke up?
You just start reading?
No I'm selective
Especially if it damages the opposition. Politics 101Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Politics 101, when the opposition self destructs, let them and make an ad.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Corona is what's disrupting American life, and even politicians capitalists liberals and conservatives are pretty much helpless to stop it. Even replacing all the politicians corona19 would be kicking everybody's butt.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
In some ways that's true, but I'll tell you this. Once we return to the place of having to actually pay for what we want, then you won't see these kinds of thoughtless shut-downs of the economy.
well we agree on one thing, the shutdowns were a knee jerk reaction
Made easier by the belief that borrowed money is as good as tax revenues.
Wonder what a better plan would have been? I don't think reopening amid rising sickness and death is a long term solution either. There seems to be slow responses in some areas just becoming hotspots, and maybe some can ignore the mass graves without funerals and the freezer trucks behind hospitals and undertakers running out of caskets in NY, but that can happen any place in America.
So I ask what would be a more effective plan to curb the sickness and deaths that this virus has brought us? I can understand the Aussie response being different than ours Clete, but our numbers are just that much greater than yours.
Ask yourself; could things have been worse if the economy had stayed open and some normal precautions taken? 100,000 deaths, things couldn't be much worse. What numbers are you speaking of? infections? deaths? yes certainly worse, but our experience is different. many infections here came from returning travellers, there has been no community infections to speak of. We did the shutdown thing, panicked by the "science" and it all came to very little, but the damage to the economy is enormous. What is different here is we don't live so tightly packed together and we don't have the poor problem you have. So universal health care gave better outcomes but political B/S did the damage anyway. The H1N1 strains will kill more people even with an effective vaccine, even the bush fire smoke killed more people so shutdown was just a political exerciseQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I don't know what normal precautions, is but there are no normal treatments for this virus that are effective so far, and spreads rapidly, and is spreading even as we do the reopening thing, so yes I think things would be much worse had the economy stayed open, and we will know the effects of reopening soon enough.Quote:
Ask yourself; could things have been worse if the economy had stayed open and some normal precautions taken?
It's not just our response here Clete, but the whole world, and while some may say that keeping people home was an over reaction, that may have been the one thing we could do to slow the spread of the virus at the expense of economic disruption. I see even more disruptions with the economy as people go about business as usual and sickness and death are spread further and faster.
It's not like it's gone away here and it's over, and we conquered the thing.
We need to look at Japan. They, for the most part, did not shelter in place and yet had relatively good success with the virus.
I think in hindsight you have a population with more potential medical problems, some of it is genetic, some lifestyle and it hit you in winter. Business as usual has little to do with it, people got to eat, got to shelter and to do that they need money. All the science can't account for lack of moneyQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Several East Asian nations that performed well against the virus had several things in common, the most important being how quickly they reacted against Covid-19.
In contrast, Trump's administration did nothing after many early warnings with Trump going so far as calling it a hoax when the virus was demonstrably reaching pandemic proportions. His delay of up to two months has resulted in 37,000 deaths according to epidemiologists.
Trump continues to mismanage the crisis by ineffective and absent leadership.
What did they do? Japan is not sheltering in place nor have they closed down their economy, so what did they do that was so effective that we somehow missed?Quote:
how quickly they reacted against Covid-19.
From Wikipedia:Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The Japanese government has adopted various measures to prevent and mitigate the outbreak. On 30 January (Trump held a campaign rally), Prime Minister Shinzo Abe established a national task force to oversee the government's response to the pandemic.[7] On 27 February (Trump hailed his administration’s handling of the coronavirus saying “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.”) Shinzo Abe requested the temporary closure of all Japanese elementary, junior high, and high schools until early April.[8] As the pandemic became a concern for the 2020 Summer Olympics, the Japanese government and the International Olympic Committee negotiated its postponement until 2021.[9] On 7 April, Abe proclaimed a one-month state of emergency for Tokyo and the prefectures of Kanagawa, Saitama, Chiba, Osaka, Hyogo, and Fukuoka.[10] On 16 April, the declaration was extended to the rest of the country for an indefinite period.[11]
Japan is one of those countries that wear face masks for colds and allergies and have for years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-...demic_in_Japan
They closed schools like we did. They declared a state of emergency and put together a council. Fine and dandy. They did not, for most of the country, shelter in place. They did not shut down much of their economy. So my question remains, what did they do that seemed to be effective? They have had 882 deaths which is really a dramatic difference. They are stacked on top of each other, moreso by far than we are. What made the difference?
You are aware that Trump established our task force on the 29th of January, so one day earlier than Abe did? So you'll give him an "atta-boy" for that, I'm sure?Quote:
On 30 January (Trump held a campaign rally), Prime Minister Shinzo Abe established a national task force to oversee the government's response to the pandemic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_...rus_Task_Force
Face masks are not unknown in that country. Touching (handshakes, hugging, kissing, etc.) is not done; instead bowing to each other is the rule. The Japanese I've known are superclean and scrupulous about hygiene.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
From Wikipedia:
By February 25, they established contact tracing and determined the high-risk environments include 1) closed spaces with poor ventilation; (2) crowded places with many people nearby; and (3) close-contact settings such as close-range conversations.[196]
To reduce person-to-person contact, the government has instructed the public to refrain from going to high-risk environments (the Three Cs: closed spaces, crowded places, and close-contact settings) and events involving movement between different areas of the country.[197] It emphasized extreme caution when coming in contact with the elderly. The government also promoted such work-style reforms as teleworking and staggering commuting hours, while improving the country's distance learning infrastructure for children.
You might have missed this from me. "You are aware that Trump established our task force on the 29th of January, so one day earlier than Abe did? So you'll give him an "atta-boy" for that, I'm sure?"
I wonder if the democratic mayor of New York City and the democratic governor of New York state did those things by 2/25?
Trump never followed through; Abe did.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
We don't have to wonder we can look it up and compare.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-...w_York_(state)
A very crucial point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
They were telling us to attend Chinese New Year events ;St Patrick Day parades ,ride the subways ,go to restaurants and plays . Mid March Bolshevik Bernie was planning on keeping the schools open until the teachers actually began a mutiny.Quote:
I wonder if the democratic mayor of New York City and the democratic governor of New York state did those things by 2/25?
As for the Democrats ? The whole month of January their only concern was trying to convict Trump on the phony impeachments charges the Dems concocted before the new year . The House of Reps only took up the matter of the virus the 1st week of February .
I'll put the timeline on this posting too:
January 3 CDC Director Robert Redfield sent an email to the director of the Chinese CDC, George Gao, formally offering to send U.S. experts to China to investigate the coronavirus.
CDC Director Redfield sent another email to the Chinese CDC Director, George Gao, formally offering to send U.S. experts to China to investigate the coronavirus outbreak,Jan 6 CDC issued a travel notice on Wuhan, China, before any U.S. infection arose.
Jan 6 CDC issued a travel notice on Wuhan, China, before any U.S. infection arose.
The CDC established a coronavirus incident management system to better share and respond to information about the virus.
Jan 17 CDC began enhanced screening for COVID-19 symptoms at three U.S. airports, in San Francisco, Los Angeles and New York's JFK. U.S. infections: Zero.
Jan 20CDC opened an emergency operations center after one U.S. COVID-19 patient was diagnosed.Dr. Fauci announces the National Institutes of Health is already working on the development of a vaccine for the coronavirus.
Jan 21 CDC expanded COVID-19 checks to airports in Chicago and Atlanta.CDC activated its emergency operations center to provide ongoing support to the coronavirus response.
January 21The CDC sought a “special emergency authorization” from the FDA to allow states to use its newly developed coronavirus test.
Jan 20 Trump tweeted that he made an offer to President Xi Jinping to send experts to China to investigate the coronavirus outbreak.CDC issued a level III travel health notice urging Americans to avoid all nonessential travel to China due to the coronavirus.
Jan 29 Trump creates the coronavirus task force
Jan 31One day after the WHO declared COVID-19 a “Public Health Emergency of International Concern,” Trump restricted travel from China. Quid pro Joe this policy “hysterical xenophobia.” CDC began the first mandatory quarantines since the 1960s. Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar declared “a public health emergency in the United States.”
Feb 2CDC added Honolulu, Seattle and Dulles airports to those already screening travelers from China.
Feb 4 FDAallowed emergency use of CDC’s COVID-19 test in non-CDC labs. “My administration will take all necessary steps to safeguard our citizens from” COVID-19, Trump said in his State of the Union address.
Feb 5White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney and Secretary Azar briefed lawmakers on COVID-19. “Several House lawmakers of both parties said the administration has the situation under control,” the Seattle Times reported.
The House Foreign Affairs Committee held a hearing on “The Wuhan Coronavirus.” This was the first time that either House of Congress addressed this . They were all too preoccupied trying to convict Trump.
Feb 6CDC began shipping CDC-Developed test kits for the 2019 Coronavirus to U.S. and international labs.
Feb 9Trump’s Coronavirus Task Force briefed the states' chief executives at the National Governors Association Meeting.
Feb 11HHS expanded collaboration with Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen Research & Development division to produce a COVID-19 vaccine.
Feb 12 The U.S. shipped test kits for the 2019 novel coronavirus to approximately 30 countries who lacked the necessary reagents and other materials.
Feb 14CDC began working with five labs to conduct “community-based influenza surveillance” to study and detect the spread of coronavirus.
Feb 18
HHS offered expertise and funds to help Sanofi Pasteur develop a COVID-19 vaccine and treatments.
Feb 26 Trump assigned VP Mike Pence to lead the administration’s COVID-19 response.
Feb 24The Trump Administration sent a letter to Congress requesting at least $2.5 billion to help combat the spread of the coronavirus.
Feb 29FDA let LabCorp, Quest, and other diagnosticians develop COVID-19 tests and liberated states to engage some 2,000 such laboratories. The administration discouraged travel to parts of South Korea and Italy and restricted arrivals from Iran.
March 3CDC lifted federal restrictions on coronavirus testing to allow any American to be tested for coronavirus, “subject to doctor’s orders.”
March 4The Trump Administration announced the purchase of approximately 500 million N95 respirators over the next 18 months to respond to the outbreak of the novel coronavirus.Secretary Azar announced that HHS was transferring $35 million to the CDC to help state and local communities that have been impacted most by the coronavirus.
March 6Trump signed $8.3 billion in COVID-19 response funds approved by both Houses of Congress on March 4 .
March 10Trump and Pence met with top health insurance companies and secured a commitment to waive co-pays for coronavirus testing.
March 11 Trump restricts travel from Europe .
March 13, Trump proclaimed a national emergency, unleashed $42 billion, forgave student-loan interest; deregulated telemedicine, interstate medical practice and the hiring of physicians at hospitals; and persuaded Costco, Walmart and other retailers to launch drive-thru COVID-19 tests. FDA let Roche and Thermo Fisher produce COVID-19 tests.HHS announced funding for the development of two new rapid diagnostic tests, which would be able to detect coronavirus in approximately 1 hour.
March 15HHS announced it is projected to have 1.9 million COVID-19 tests available in 2,000 labs this week.Google announced a partnership with the Trump Administration to develop a website dedicated to coronavirus education, prevention, & local resources.
All 50 states were contacted through FEMA to coordinate “federally-supported, state-led efforts” to end coronavirus
March 16 Trump Announced that the first potential vaccine for coronavirus has entered a phase one trial in a record amount of time. Announced “15 days to slow the spread” coronavirus guidance.The FDA announced it was empowering states to authorize tests developed and used by labs in their states.Asst. Secretary for Health confirmed the availability of 1 million coronavirus tests, and projected 2 million tests available the next week and 5 million the following.
March 17The Department of Defense announced it will make available to HHS up to five million respirator masks and 2,000 ventilators.
March 18Trump signed the Families First Coronavirus Response Act, which provides free testing and paid sick leave for workers impacted by the coronavirus.He also temporarily closed the US Canada border to non-essential travel. He also announced that he plansto invoke the Defense Production Act .Also FEMA activated in every region at its highest level of response .The U.S. Navy will deploy USNS Comfort and USNS Mercy hospital ships. All foreclosures and evictions will be suspended for a period of time.HHS temporarily suspended a regulation that prevents doctors from practicing across state lines.
March 19Pence announced tens of thousands of ventilators have been identified that can be converted to treat patients.The State Department issued a global level 4 health advisory, telling Americans to avoid all international travel due to coronavirus.Trump directed FEMA to take the lead on the Federal Government’s coronavirus response
March 20Secretary Azar sent a letter to all 50 Governors that the federal government is buying and making available 200,000 testing swabs
Wake up. Read Tom's post.Quote:
Trump never followed through; Abe did.
No one has yet posted what the Japanese did that enabled them to do so well. Take out the typical, predictable anti-Trump rhetoric, and there was basically nothing.
YOU wake up! Reread my post #104.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Heck, I'll repost it here:
Face masks are not unknown in that country. Touching (handshakes, hugging, kissing, etc.) is not done; instead bowing to each other is the rule. The Japanese I've known are superclean and scrupulous about hygiene.
From Wikipedia:
By February 25, they established contact tracing and determined the high-risk environments include 1) closed spaces with poor ventilation; (2) crowded places with many people nearby; and (3) close-contact settings such as close-range conversations.[196]
To reduce person-to-person contact, the government has instructed the public to refrain from going to high-risk environments (the Three Cs: closed spaces, crowded places, and close-contact settings) and events involving movement between different areas of the country.[197] It emphasized extreme caution when coming in contact with the elderly. The government also promoted such work-style reforms as teleworking and staggering commuting hours, while improving the country's distance learning infrastructure for children.
Sorry I forgot you can't read links and forgive me for typing as little as possible given circumstance, but it would seem the Japanese are more experienced and disciplined, in better health and have a far superior health infrastructure with less people. WG referenced the dufus once comparing him to Abe, and should be noted the dufus was delivering lip service while Abe and other leaders were actually doing stuff in coordination with his locals.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Our state governors were left to their own devices pretty much, so the difference seems to be the coordinated NATIONAL response as opposed to our individual state actions. Comparing any individual state to countries is apple to oranges in this situation. I haven't seen anybody emerge with a great outcome and it's rather early to give out gold stars for success at this point. So far though some have done better than others and everyone is too unique to fairly compare.
The "wake up" referred to your silly assertion that Trump never followed through, an assertion that Tom's post clearly refutes.
Nope, Trump hasn't followed through. He's been too busy selling himself and acting like a fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
March 22:
Reporter: "What do you say to Americans who are scared. Nearly 200 dead, 14,000 sick, millions scared."
Trump: "I say you are a terrible reporter, that's what I say."
Darned federalist ideology...states rule. That's as un-unifying as it gets! Throw in incompetence surrounded by incompetence and here we are.
Now there you have the nub of it, an uncoordinated responseQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Dude is trying to get re elected and stay out of jail, so expect him to swing for the fences any way he can. Give the fool some more happy pills.
Really? Well, to repeat.Quote:
Nope, Trump hasn't followed through. He's been too busy selling himself and acting like a fool.
January 3 CDC Director Robert Redfield sent an email to the director of the Chinese CDC, George Gao, formally offering to send U.S. experts to China to investigate the coronavirus.
CDC Director Redfield sent another email to the Chinese CDC Director, George Gao, formally offering to send U.S. experts to China to investigate the coronavirus outbreak,Jan 6 CDC issued a travel notice on Wuhan, China, before any U.S. infection arose.
Jan 6 CDC issued a travel notice on Wuhan, China, before any U.S. infection arose.
The CDC established a coronavirus incident management system to better share and respond to information about the virus.
Jan 17 CDC began enhanced screening for COVID-19 symptoms at three U.S. airports, in San Francisco, Los Angeles and New York's JFK. U.S. infections: Zero.
Jan 20CDC opened an emergency operations center after one U.S. COVID-19 patient was diagnosed.Dr. Fauci announces the National Institutes of Health is already working on the development of a vaccine for the coronavirus.
Jan 21 CDC expanded COVID-19 checks to airports in Chicago and Atlanta.CDC activated its emergency operations center to provide ongoing support to the coronavirus response.
January 21The CDC sought a “special emergency authorization” from the FDA to allow states to use its newly developed coronavirus test.
Jan 20 Trump tweeted that he made an offer to President Xi Jinping to send experts to China to investigate the coronavirus outbreak.CDC issued a level III travel health notice urging Americans to avoid all nonessential travel to China due to the coronavirus.
Jan 29 Trump creates the coronavirus task force
Jan 31One day after the WHO declared COVID-19 a “Public Health Emergency of International Concern,” Trump restricted travel from China. Quid pro Joe this policy “hysterical xenophobia.” CDC began the first mandatory quarantines since the 1960s. Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar declared “a public health emergency in the United States.”
Feb 2CDC added Honolulu, Seattle and Dulles airports to those already screening travelers from China.
Feb 4 FDAallowed emergency use of CDC’s COVID-19 test in non-CDC labs. “My administration will take all necessary steps to safeguard our citizens from” COVID-19, Trump said in his State of the Union address.
Feb 5White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney and Secretary Azar briefed lawmakers on COVID-19. “Several House lawmakers of both parties said the administration has the situation under control,” the Seattle Times reported.
The House Foreign Affairs Committee held a hearing on “The Wuhan Coronavirus.” This was the first time that either House of Congress addressed this . They were all too preoccupied trying to convict Trump.
Feb 6CDC began shipping CDC-Developed test kits for the 2019 Coronavirus to U.S. and international labs.
Feb 9Trump’s Coronavirus Task Force briefed the states' chief executives at the National Governors Association Meeting.
Feb 11HHS expanded collaboration with Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen Research & Development division to produce a COVID-19 vaccine.
Feb 12 The U.S. shipped test kits for the 2019 novel coronavirus to approximately 30 countries who lacked the necessary reagents and other materials.
Feb 14CDC began working with five labs to conduct “community-based influenza surveillance” to study and detect the spread of coronavirus.
Feb 18
HHS offered expertise and funds to help Sanofi Pasteur develop a COVID-19 vaccine and treatments.
Feb 26 Trump assigned VP Mike Pence to lead the administration’s COVID-19 response.
Feb 24The Trump Administration sent a letter to Congress requesting at least $2.5 billion to help combat the spread of the coronavirus.
Feb 29FDA let LabCorp, Quest, and other diagnosticians develop COVID-19 tests and liberated states to engage some 2,000 such laboratories. The administration discouraged travel to parts of South Korea and Italy and restricted arrivals from Iran.
March 3CDC lifted federal restrictions on coronavirus testing to allow any American to be tested for coronavirus, “subject to doctor’s orders.”
March 4The Trump Administration announced the purchase of approximately 500 million N95 respirators over the next 18 months to respond to the outbreak of the novel coronavirus.Secretary Azar announced that HHS was transferring $35 million to the CDC to help state and local communities that have been impacted most by the coronavirus.
March 6Trump signed $8.3 billion in COVID-19 response funds approved by both Houses of Congress on March 4 .
March 10Trump and Pence met with top health insurance companies and secured a commitment to waive co-pays for coronavirus testing.
March 11 Trump restricts travel from Europe .
March 13, Trump proclaimed a national emergency, unleashed $42 billion, forgave student-loan interest; deregulated telemedicine, interstate medical practice and the hiring of physicians at hospitals; and persuaded Costco, Walmart and other retailers to launch drive-thru COVID-19 tests. FDA let Roche and Thermo Fisher produce COVID-19 tests.HHS announced funding for the development of two new rapid diagnostic tests, which would be able to detect coronavirus in approximately 1 hour.
March 15HHS announced it is projected to have 1.9 million COVID-19 tests available in 2,000 labs this week.Google announced a partnership with the Trump Administration to develop a website dedicated to coronavirus education, prevention, & local resources.
All 50 states were contacted through FEMA to coordinate “federally-supported, state-led efforts” to end coronavirus
March 16 Trump Announced that the first potential vaccine for coronavirus has entered a phase one trial in a record amount of time. Announced “15 days to slow the spread” coronavirus guidance.The FDA announced it was empowering states to authorize tests developed and used by labs in their states.Asst. Secretary for Health confirmed the availability of 1 million coronavirus tests, and projected 2 million tests available the next week and 5 million the following.
March 17The Department of Defense announced it will make available to HHS up to five million respirator masks and 2,000 ventilators.
March 18Trump signed the Families First Coronavirus Response Act, which provides free testing and paid sick leave for workers impacted by the coronavirus.He also temporarily closed the US Canada border to non-essential travel. He also announced that he plansto invoke the Defense Production Act .Also FEMA activated in every region at its highest level of response .The U.S. Navy will deploy USNS Comfort and USNS Mercy hospital ships. All foreclosures and evictions will be suspended for a period of time.HHS temporarily suspended a regulation that prevents doctors from practicing across state lines.
March 19Pence announced tens of thousands of ventilators have been identified that can be converted to treat patients.The State Department issued a global level 4 health advisory, telling Americans to avoid all international travel due to coronavirus.Trump directed FEMA to take the lead on the Federal Government’s coronavirus response
March 20Secretary Azar sent a letter to all 50 Governors that the federal government is buying and making available 200,000 testing swabs
All good moves no doubt advised by real experienced experts but let's be clear here, he has deviated from the plan bigtime and at a crucial phase to push this reopening thing when most of the states were far from ready. None have met anywhere close to criteria for further mitigation, as the dufus put those experienced experts on the back burner along with reasonable guide lines for the economic thing he is desperate for. That guarantees more sickness and death and some areas are just getting started with having to deal with this virus.
Hard to have a healthy economy again when your people are sick and dying. That's just my opinion, of course based on the science and data, but maybe, just maybe we can respond more quickly and efficiently to what I suspect will be more hotspots in the short term, with a larger wave toward years end. Believe it or not I hope the dufus actually knows something I do not, and can pull this off.
I'd be a fool though, to trust a snake oil salesman in the middle of his pitch. I got masks and toilet paper and will stay hunkered down and social distance even if everybody else says it's fine to come out and play. Traded the popcorn for crackers and added another streaming service.
At least we can forget the "Trump didn't follow through," assessment.Quote:
All good moves no doubt advised by real experienced experts
keep moving the goal posts . The deal was a shut down to flatten the curve so the hospitals would not be over-whelmed . Mission accomplished .We know how to act if a spike occurs . We are well aware of what steps should be taken to protect ourselves and others in the course of our daily affairs .We know who is vulnerable and should be given extra consideration . Time to get back to work America. This shut down is going to cost twice as much in lives lost in health care delayed .
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