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Economics and social issues seldom mix well, and fear of Nazis is never a good strategy with trade and PRICES. Yes this whole Brexit stuff was about imigration policy I think, but I doubt if the EU is going to get anything close to open borders, and the UK will not get good prices on an open market. You can blame Germany all you want and hide behind migrants but Vlad is already counting his money. Merkel is on her way out so which way will Germany go next?
Germany will continue its march to European domination as was laid out in the master plan and implemented by the very nazi who conceived it and got himself elected to be the first common market presidentQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Don't kid yourself. Russia's economy is just limping along.Quote:
Vlad is already counting his money.
Vlad seems to limp along rather well and can expand to other countries despite those crippling sanctions. So do other countries we have sanctioned. Who's kidding who here? Iran has been sanction since the 80's and boy has that made a difference in their behavior! Can you explain that?
That's a pretty good point. I'd respond in two ways. 1. We don't know what Iran would be doing if we had NOT imposed sanctions. It could very easily be much, much worse than it is now if they had been given billions of dollars in oil money in addition to the 1.5 billion gift from Obama. 2. The Iranian economy is in desperately bad condition and there is, say some people, considerable unrest in the country. That has to be a major concern of the fanatics running the show.Quote:
Iran has been sanction since the 80's and boy has that made a difference in their behavior! Can you explain that?
Those sanctioned countries seem to survive rather well and reek havoc on society, as well as survive social upheaval within the country. Just suggesting that there has to be something else we don't know about and these dictators do.
That could be the case, but again, we don't know but that issues would be far worse without sanctions.
I suspect you are dead on, but I sure would like to know what the trick is. Maybe it's like many places where there is a poor economy and people depend on the underground economy to keep them going. I have heard that there is a global black market and many ways to skirt around laws and sanction like Saddam did in Iraq years ago and as Erdogan was suspected of doing during the rise of ISIS a few years ago. No secret the rich Koreans have a global hustle going to get what they need despite those sanctions from decades ago.
People are resilient and able to do much with little. They don't suffer from the bloated economy of the west, you spend a lot of money because the big ripoff is in effect and you don't get value for money. Vlad can keep decades old aircraft flying while he develops a new range of weapons and once again you are playing catchup. Kim has a nuclear program on a shoe string because he isn't spending money on welfareQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Why is anyone surprised Russia keeps clicking along despite sanctions? RUSSIA SURVIVED A NAZI ONSLAUGHT AND LOST 21 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE PROCESS! Let's face it: Russia IS A BEAR!
Sanction on other countries DON'T WORK AS EFFECTIVELY AS THEY COULD BECAUSE OTHER COUNTRIES IGNORE THE SANCTIONS AND KEEP TRADING WITH THEM! The Europeans are some of the worst offenders of desiring to trade with sanctioned nations: Why were they so upset with Trump about telling the Iranians to shove Obama's deal up their arses? They were worried about getting Iranian petroleum, not making the Iranians do right. The E.U. will always work against U.S. interests! The E.U. is run by the Germans and they have large designs.
Haven't I just been saying the same thingQuote:
The E.U. is run by the Germans and they have large designs.
Paraclete: Yes...yes, you have! I don't trust the Germans: The never really gave up....they have simply changed tactics....the wolves are now wearing sheep's clothing. When you look at how much of the U.S. is German ethnicity, its the largest: Few people know about the German-American Bund Society: It was large and had dangerous potential....many convicted of espionage were members.
They can't be too keen on military aggression. If they are, then how could someone explain their relatively small army and air force? Their approach now is not even close to what Hitler was doing. Now are they after some sort of economic domination? That's possible, and perhaps that was your point.Quote:
The never really gave up....they have simply changed tactics
I will just note that the EU has a basic flaw that most trade unions have in that the have the richer states making policy for poorer states with less resources and economic options. The CENTRAL authority is to weak to be independent of the more powerful members so they can be virtually useless to develop policy that benefits all equally. Very easy to make the most powerful the bogey man and never address the inequality, that tends to be a norm among haves and have nots. We have the same dynamic here among our own states with the same economic disparity between those who could survive the GFC and those that couldn't and the slow trickle down of those that have not shared in the recovery.
The biggest clue was on the solution that is popular with capitalist orthodoxy, loan the poor a few bucks at a high interest and when they cannot pay, clamp down and take whatever assets they do have. If that were done here as opposed to grants and other vehicles to bring economic balance to poorer states then Mississippi and others would be in hock until perpetuity. A poor way to assist a poor state and bring them from poverty, and exploitive to a great degree.
Now is it a coincidence that this policy in Europe coincide with the social unrest and the rise of nationalistic right wing political power? Not so sure I can connect those dots but bears watching as a universal event. I can see it happening here also, as the governments ability to get anything done has left it weak and incompetent so probably deserves all the blame it gets, and the fallout is people turning away from it as an institution of trust, and filling the gaps with all sorts of social crap. That's not good for a growing nation anywhere, to paper over the needs of the many for what a few want.
jlisenbe: Yes, to some extent, that was my point....and it will remain that way for a while...but, at some point, the Germans will raise the issue of the need for an "E.U." military force to protect E.U. interests, to counter perceived Russian threats, and to become "independent" of the need for U.S. military protection and presence: When that point arrives, WATCH OUT, it will come with speed!
Talaniman is spot-on with the idea that the more affluent nations in these "Unions" will ride the weaker poor ones like rented mules: straight-up exploitation! Nothing ever really changes, does it?
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The biggest clue was on the solution that is popular with capitalist orthodoxy, loan the poor a few bucks at a high interest and when they cannot pay, clamp down and take whatever assets they do have.
Can you be specific with an example of this?Quote:
Talaniman is spot-on with the idea that the more affluent nations in these "Unions" will ride the weaker poor ones like rented mules: straight-up exploitation! Nothing ever really changes, does it?
jlisenbe: The most obvious ones are Greece and the Balkan states: The more affluent E.U. countries have used these nation as a "catchall" repository for illegal immigrants so they don't have handle so many themselves.
Greece won't work. The Greeks tried to have the ideal Socialist country where everyone had 40 days (or whatever) of paid vacation, no one had to really work hard, free meds, free everything, and when the economy turned down, they were borrowed to the hilt and couldn't pay the many stupid loans they had made. There is no one to blame for Greece but Greece.
The immigrant situation and loading those already cash strapped resource poor countries with debts they cannot possibly repay within the given parameters has made for a volatile hot bed of social unrests and their governments have little choices but to go along somewhat with what amounts to payday loans for poor people. It would seem they do have a model for those states they could use to better effect with commercial and civic investments since they are a very lucrative financial force that creates jobs and eases an overburdened social system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Not that our system of sustaining our poorer states is that much better, plenty of corruption and abuses to address, but still much better than adding debt and straining an in debt country even further, unless the goal is to push them out all together and seek the help of say Russia as a relief to the capitalistic exploitation of their fellow Europeans. Then where would the EU be? Losing the Brits was but the first sign of the inner turmoil the Europeans are experiencing that I suspect started when they left Iran and we marched right into Iraq on a pretense.
No the Euros had their fingers in that pie as well with our help, that in hindsight begins to look like more exploitation of conquered nations. Or kicking a poor country when it's down Take your pick because both could apply while those exploiters extract wealth and make profits hand over fist in the same time frame.
Obviously I disagree very strongly since debt was the only thing offered by their fellow EU partners that knew full well they could never repay the debts. Like say that was a pay day loan mentality not meant to help but exploit.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Countries need to learn to avoid debt like the plague. No one is to blame for Greece but Greece. No one forced them to go into debt. They really should look at Germany or Sweden and decide to become like them. I never cease to be amazed at how many problems could be solved by people adopting the idea of working 60 hours a week or how many hours it would take to pay the bills.
Not adding debt? We're foolishly adding a tril of debt a year. We are no example for anyone to follow.
If they had not loaned them money, and postponed existing debt payments, the Greeks would have been bankrupt. Last time I checked, it takes the agreement of TWO parties for a loan to take place. Why didn't Greece just pay their own way as they went?Quote:
Obviously I disagree very strongly since debt was the only thing offered by their fellow EU partners that knew full well they could never repay the debts.
We'll figure it out one of these days that corrupt pols love debt. It allows them to look caring and compassionate while not piling on an excessive load of taxes. We are completely stupid for falling for that tactic. It's dems and repubs alike doing it, Obama and Trump alike.
To work there must be the jobs that support those 60 hours a week and let's face it the reality is Greece doesn't have those kinds of job opportunities. Never have the way other countries did or were helped to structure that way. Germany benefited immensely from the Marshall Plan so you think they would pass that to countries that could use them like Greece rather than act like greedy exploitive mobsters.
jlisenbe & Talaniman: May sound like I'm crying over spilled milk but I don't think many of these European nations PAID back their Marshall Plan debts and Greece had one heck of a time recovering after WWII because they had a communist insurgency for about five years post War that set them back when others were nations economies were growing and beginning to thrive. I agree that its bad business to go into debt and the U.S. is not a good example in this category AND Obama and Trump are almost brothers of different mothers in this arena in driving debt sky high.
However, Germany looms large in a lot of these European economy dramas....I think German fingerprints are all about Europe, cloaked in the E.U., and they truly are the shadowy puppet masters of Europe....what is a not known right now is the Merkel replacement and what path that German will take. In E.U. gatherings, those nations that don't fall-in lock-step with the E.U. plans are attacked with great gusto and vigor (remember Nigel Farage and Matteo Salvini were pounced upon by E.U. leaders).
Yes Germany certainly won the peace, no doubt due to soviet aggression
As well they should be, but can such extreme right wing loonism take over Germany? Seems to be the trend in the EU countries, and many other places even here. Fear driven and hate based neo nationalism of which the dufus and Vlad are the poster boys for, is certainly something even conservatives oppose as extremism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Talaniman: Right Wing Loonism is a REACTION to left wing loonism….almost always has been through history......Hitler would have never gotten traction in Germany if the ALLIES hadn't decided to rape Germany as part of the "Peace Agreement" (a Peace Agreement that fostered hatred) and the communist hadn't been trying to exploit the situation.....Salvini wouldn't have gotten popular in Italy if the left hadn't been trying to do and end-around run on the will of the people. Germany is primed to turn Right and, potentially, hard Right because of Merkel's cutesy moves with flooding the country with M.E. and African refugees will have an effect on helping propel the native German population to look for "alternatives" to their traditional left-leaning views.
Talaniman: One thing is for sure: The left doesn't have all the CRAZIES....the Right has plenty of them, too.....and the rest of us are in the middle but what we cannot be is "timid" or the extremes on either side of us will run rough-shod over us!
I tend not to vote for extremist right or left, but you are very correct that the middle or moderates have to watch them loonies all the time because they never quit, or go away, and you just can't out holler them!
No coincidence that issues on sovereignty and immigration are what they rally around. Them people is but a cover for racism, and an excuse to blame others for their misery.
so sovereignty and immigration are about racism, not nationalism, not start your charity at home and look after your own. Twisted leftist views TalQuote:
No coincidence that issues on sovereignty and immigration are what they rally around. Them people is but a cover for racism, and an excuse to blame others for their misery.
So we can't be a sovereign nation, and we can't control immigration? I guess that means you let anyone and everyone into your house at night, or at least it does if you practice what you preach.Quote:
No coincidence that issues on sovereignty and immigration are what they rally around. Them people is but a cover for racism, and an excuse to blame others for their misery.
That always amazes me about liberals. They have such a wonderful moral standard that they want other people to live by.
Hmmmm! moral standard? is that what you call it? free range abortion on demand? drugs for all? helping the poor of other nations before helping your own?Quote:
That always amazes me about liberals. They have such a wonderful moral standard
Now that would be funny if not down right tragic if the way you exercise and control your borders is by being cruel to scared men, women, and children running from the lawless dangers in their own countries. I'm not surprised you cannot find a moral way to go about it and prefer to accuse liberals of being against sovereignty and border control. Humane process is beyond you righties or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That wasn't my point at all.Quote:
Hmmmm! moral standard? is that what you call it? free range abortion on demand? drugs for all? helping the poor of other nations before helping your own?
If you are so kind yourself, are you opening the door of your own house to those people, or do you just expect others to shoulder the burden? We cannot hold everyone who has a problem in their own country, just like you don't ask 8 of your local homeless crowd to come live in your house. You don't do that, do you? Do You?Quote:
Now that would be funny if not down right tragic if the way you exercise and control your borders is by being cruel to scared men, women, and children running from the lawless dangers in their own countries. I'm not surprised you cannot find a moral way to go about it and prefer to accuse liberals of being against sovereignty and border control. Humane process is beyond you righties or something?
Just because I don't house the homeless, or immigrant, or those people and don't ask you to do it either, we do as a collective try to help a fellow human don't we? They takes as much from me as you in that regard so what the heck are you talking about expect others to do it? Jesus tells you to do it and you cry and whine and refuse? You really think telling me to follow Jesus and you don't works for me?
You claim to be super-moral because you want the feds to basically allow anyone and everyone to come into our country and expect to be housed and fed when they get here, but you don't engage in any of that yourself? Hmmm.
I claim no such thing. We are both a part of the collective effort, but you cry about it. Now dry your eyes and do what Jesus tell you to do and I'm sure you know that scripture by heart.
Last time I looked Jesus said go into the world, not invite the world to your doorstep so please don't attempt to quote scripture and induce a guilt trip. You liberals are too good at that. Don't tell us what to do, go and do it yourself. When Jesus said feed my lambs, feed my sheep he was speaking about preaching the Gospel, not putting food on the tableQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I hate it to have to preach the gospel to true believers, BUT...
Leviticus 25:35-38 35"'If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you. 36Do not take interest or any profit from them, but fear your God, so that they may continue to live among you. 37You must not lend them money at interest or sell them food at a profit. 38I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt to give you the land of Canaan and to be your God.Matthew 25:35 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,Hebrews 13:1-2 1Keep on loving one another as brothers and sisters. 2Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.Leviticus 19:33-34 33"'When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.
OK. First of all, of the four passages you quoted, Jesus only spoke one of them. The Bible does command us to be hospitable and ready to help those who need shelter, but you should note that there is no command for one person to force another to give money (taxes) to a program that is largely politically motivated. In fact, the verses you quoted lend credence to the idea that YOU are supposed to be helping the poor and homeless, and not forcing others to do so by political means.
1. I wonder if the jews in your country are following Leviticus. However, the Old Testament never contemplated being overrun with foreigners. Hospitality was not offered to the Midianites when they overran the landQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
2. Put these texts in context, in these societies there were no motels where a traveller might stay, maybe an Inn could offer accommodation to a few so hospitality was offered in private homes, by this means news was communicated.
3. I very much doubt the millions who have moved from south and central america, from the ME and Africa include many angels and these are not residents
4. as we said before, go you and do likewise
Well said. Those scriptures were to govern personal behavior, not government behavior. Liberals love to quote those texts, but only to try and score political points.Quote:
4. as we said before, go you and do likewise
Well I though the bible was the word of God. My bad for thinking that, and not seeing it's just scoring political points for a government to make policies and laws that reflect that notion. You could have told me that the only parts of the bible is the ones that quote Jesus. Or are you trying to make excuses for your own religious and political hypocrisy?
I take your point that ancient man made stuff up according to what was happening during his time and as man evolves those words are irrelevant to modern man.
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