Talaniman: Now, we agree on this completely: Small Farms have been a target of a "cabal" (lack of a better word, and I don't know who all is in it) that has sought to put them out of business so that larger, no, massive Corporate Farms could take over the production......kind of the same thing that happens when your "Friendly Walmart" comes to town: soon all the smaller stores dry up and blow away.

Like I said, I don't know who all is involved with this plot (don't call me a conspiracy theorist because at this point I think you know its not a theory, its real) but they do have the backing of the Federal Government: and political parties are irrelevant in this because Repubs, Demos, even Libertarian politicians are all on board and complicit in this.

Daddy smelled something bad when the Government started with the aerial surveys of crops and sending Agriculture Agents out to your place to "confirm" your planting.

Food is a God provided resource and, truthfully, it is a very, very STRATEGIC resource that can be used for GOOD or BAD: The fact that food has been weaponized is a sin.....but, I am afraid we have only begun to see how it can be used as a tool of geopolitical leverage...….using food as a means to dominate others is simply wrong......hell, its wrong Biblically.

So what do we take from this capitalism is bad?

Capitalism isn't bad, people are bad. Capitalism is but a tool, not a god.

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/...60&u=t&o=f&l=f

The big secret is that the left doesn't believe in socialism (unless someone else is paying for it ) . What they really believe is in Freebeeism . They have a perverse view sorta anti-Kennedy ……. "Ask what your country can do for you.....not what you can do for your country or yourself. " The US is getting there . The Federal Government grown steadily post WWII for over 70 years . Not one agency has been deemed worthy of elimination or even consolidation

even though most of them are still run as conceived even though we don't live in the world of 70 years ago

.

Trump wanted to shrink the size of government .One of his ideas was to eliminate the Office of Personal Management ...a useless bureaucracy of 5,500 pay checks that easily could be absorbed by agencies like the GSA or even the White House .

But bi-partisan pressure from Congress has taken it's toll . Congress has moved the proposal to an "independent " study group where the proposal will wither on the vine, This is no longer a Trump priority

It is completely unbelievable and frustrating that even a committed swamp drainer cannot beat the entrenched beltway . I'll say it again , The nations issues will not be fixed by those we send to the swamp .

The states have to take the bull by the horn and force the issue the way the Constitution allows them to
https://www.govexec.com/management/2...merger/161796/

I love it when conservatives try to brand liberals as bleeding hearts who want to give away other people's money, while they steal the money for themselves. Legally of course. Stop and think what Grover and the boys really wanted. Control of the money and a smaller government gives them that. They screwed up by getting and even greedier capitalist in the WH who wants a smaller government that HE could control. (Read-steal the money)

His businesses get paid when he takes a break from Washington and goes home to relax at his properties. Government never was the problem, just the people who run it like an ATM machine.

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I love it when conservatives try to brand liberals as bleeding hearts who want to give away other people's money, while they steal the money for themselves.

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Amazing how trying to keep your own money instead of paying it into the fed coffers is now considered by some to be "stealing". The reason we try to brand liberals as bleeding hearts who want to give away other people's money is because liberals are bleeding hearts who want to give away other people's money. The motto is, "I feel so strongly about meeting your need that I am willing to force someone else to meet it."

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I'll say it again , The nations issues will not be fixed by those we send to the swamp .
The states have to take the bull by the horn and force the issue the way the Constitution allows them to
https://www.govexec.com/management/2...merger/161796/

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Glad to see you back, Tom. Your observation is quite accurate. The federal government is far, far too large.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Amazing how trying to keep your own money instead of paying it into the fed coffers is now considered by some to be "stealing". The reason we try to brand liberals as bleeding hearts who want to give away other people's money is because liberals are bleeding hearts who want to give away other people's money. The motto is, "I feel so strongly about meeting your need that I am willing to force someone else to meet it."

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Says the guy who lives in a state that takes more money from the gubment that it gives.

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Says the guy who lives in a state that takes more money from the gubment that it gives.

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Our state doesn't "take" anything. The loonies in the federal government are dumb enough to pass it out like candy, so we have people here happy to cooperate. As far as I'm concerned, they can't stop those programs fast enough.

Who are you referring to that cooperates with the feds in this plot to RECEIVE somebody elses money? Surely you don't mean the state government who requests it. Stop what programs your state has running that counts on somebody elses money?

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Who are you referring to that cooperates with the feds in this plot to RECEIVE somebody elses money? Surely you don't mean the state government who requests it. Stop what programs your state has running that counts on somebody elses money?

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I'm referring to welfare programs with direct payments to individuals. We have a lot of that. It's your dem friends in past congresses that came up with these programs so I really don't see why you want to complain about it.

As far as that which counts on someone else's money, as I have pointed out to you many times, the wealthy people in this country pay the vast amount of income taxes. It is some of that money that is redirected to welfare programs.

I really don't see why, in a country with an incredibly low unemployment rate of 3.5%, why any person who is healthy in mind and body needs a check from the government.

They're called working poor, or disabled, or old and some are able bodied but have been laid off, divorced, sick or kids of those unfortunate folks. I have said not every town or region has 3.5% unemployment, or good paying jobs either. Some of THOSE places with repub governors have waivers for job requirements and many have job training programs but no jobs. I often wonder how welfare can be greater than some of those jobs that's available but yet that does exist.

Talaniman: There has never been a BIGGER MONEY GRAB IN U.S. HISTORY THAN IS OBAMA CARE.....that is a fact: Remember, its a TAX and that makes it "legal".....a legal theft.

Tomder55: Watch out when you talk about the "Rights Of States" because the left has labeled the term "States Rights" as being, get this: Racist! I know, its ridiculous but they have tried to draw that parallel.....I say to hell with them: States have some rights to self-determination.

What I don't understand and maybe you economic experts can explain it. The unemployment rate improves but the participation rate fell

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The labor force participation rate edged down to 63.2 percent from 63.3 percent in October.

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By my reading the improvement is only an illusion caused by people leaving the work force not by more people being in employment. Maybe all these good statistics are an illusion. I wonder if there are a lot of low hours and temporary jobs

LPR fell like a rock under you know who. It has started to edge back up the past few years but is still not close to the 2007 levels.


https://www.bls.gov/charts/employmen...ation-rate.htm

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I'll say it again , The nations issues will not be fixed by those we send to the swamp .
The states have to take the bull by the horn and force the issue the way the Constitution allows them to
https://www.govexec.com/management/2...merger/161796/


Glad to see you back, Tom. Your observation is quite accurate. The federal government is far, far too large.

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The fewer things that politicians control, the less it matters who is in control

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

LPR fell like a rock under you know who. It has started to edge back up the past few years but is still not close to the 2007 levels.


https://www.bls.gov/charts/employmen...ation-rate.htm

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So the participation rate has limped back a little but it doesn't answer the question, low hours and temporary jobs or maybe the idle rich

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So the participation rate has limped back a little but it doesn't answer the question, low hours and temporary jobs or maybe the idle rich

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Anyone who wants a job can get one, and probably two for that matter. Low unemployment and low inflation, yet people whine and complain. Amazing how human nature works. "Let me look for something to complain about."

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The fewer things that politicians control, the less it matters who is in control

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Of course I can't agree because when government steps back, rich guys and corporations controls everything and can make the current system of legalized stealing and extraction of wealth even more unequal. As long as you have money in politics then the government will be corrupted.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Anyone who wants a job can get one, and probably two for that matter. Low unemployment and low inflation, yet people whine and complain. Amazing how human nature works. "Let me look for something to complain about."

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It's a matter of NEEDING TWO or THREE jobs just to eat and pay rent and keep the lights on and that's something to look at. Amazing how we ignore the working poor in great economic times of a great country.

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It's a matter of NEEDING TWO or THREE jobs just to eat and pay rent and keep the lights on and that's something to look at. Amazing how we ignore the working poor in great economic times of a great country.

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Did you ever work two jobs? I have. I didn't see it as being any great burden, and I don't see why anyone else would look at it that way. Go back and study the Great Depression years. People were happy to have practically anything. The last thing the working poor need is your pity.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Did you ever work two jobs? I have. I didn't see it as being any great burden, and I don't see why anyone else would look at it that way. Go back and study the Great Depression years. People were happy to have practically anything. The last thing the working poor need is your pity.

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Many times, and it's not easy, and it's not pity either but empathy, and huge respect.

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Many times, and it's not easy, and it's not pity either but empathy, and huge respect.

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Respect is a good word for it. It's also true that we should expect and encourage people to do such things since it is the only path to economic freedom and success.

Start with a living wage.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Start with a living wage.

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Yes, that is a worthwhile objective, but it has to go hand in hand with controlling profits and removing high end executive salaries and compensation packages

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Start with a living wage.

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Very few people, less than 5%, work for minimum wage. We should be telling people to become valuable and reach the place where you are in demand.

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Yes, that is a worthwhile objective, but it has to go hand in hand with controlling profits and removing high end executive salaries and compensation packages

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Socialism. What is needed is simply free enterprise. If anyone is jealous of the salaries of high end execs, then they need to become a high end exec. Controlling profits? Are you kidding? We would need an even larger fed gov than we have now. It's a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Very few people, less than 5%, work for minimum wage. We should be telling people to become valuable and reach the place where you are in demand.


Socialism. What is needed is simply free enterprise. If anyone is jealous of the salaries of high end execs, then they need to become a high end exec. Controlling profits? Are you kidding? We would need an even larger fed gov than we have now. It's a terrible idea.

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I don't think, jl, that you have ever heard of fairness, this "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" crap, is just that, crap. Every citizen should have the right to a fair share of the wealth of the nation, it should not be reserved for a privileged few who happen to have some money and that the poorest should be able to "work" for a fair wage is not an outlandish proposal. You see everything as an increase in government, but enact fair laws and create courts to enforce them

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I don't think, jl, that you have ever heard of fairness, this "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" crap, is just that, crap. Every citizen should have the right to a fair share of the wealth of the nation, it should not be reserved for a privileged few who happen to have some money and that the poorest should be able to "work" for a fair wage is not an outlandish proposal. You see everything as an increase in government, but enact fair laws and create courts to enforce them

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So how much of your paycheck do you voluntarily give away to others in the name of "fairness"?

Honestly, I don't know of anything that should scare us more than a governement agency in charge of determining what is fair. It will just become a vote gathering machine based upon liberals giving away money that belongs to others. When the government gets to decide what kinds of profits are acceptable, or what kinds of salaries are "fair", then you have just received your introduction to socialism.

As I said earlier, my only concern about wages is giving everyone the freedom to work hard and make something out of themselves. "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is crap? Man, you are frightfully ignorant of American history. It's been the story of the United States.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So how much of your paycheck do you voluntarily give away to others in the name of "fairness"?

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I'm not talking about reducing anyone's paycheque but properly valuing labour, I don't believe that anyone should need more than one job for basic necessities, but I oppose the corporate leeches who take millions in salary by keeping the wages of others low

Socialism is too close to communism: Don't need that here in the U.S.

U.S. is all about pulling yourself up by you boot straps.

Wages should not be controlled: This is poison to innovative ideas.

Any Government "control" is too much Government control.

Having the "Government" determine or set the standards for fairness is the way of destroying the nation.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Socialism is too close to communism: Don't need that here in the U.S.

U.S. is all about pulling yourself up by you boot straps.

Wages should not be controlled: This is poison to innovative ideas.

Any Government "control" is too much Government control.

Having the "Government" determine or set the standards for fairness is the way of destroying the nation.

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From my perspective the US is all about self and selfish bullcrap.


My nation has not been destroyed by having the government determine or set the standards for fairness. In this nation wages are controlled so is outlandish corporate behaviour and gouging. This is considered against the public interest and this is one of the greatest economies in the world with high living standards, maybe even higher generally than you own

You fear socialism, but what we do isn't socialism, it is regulation. This reduces the welfare burden. You see it is all about ethos and this nation has always had an ethos of fairness. You force employers to pick up the health cheque, we don't do that, the tax system picks up the health cheque and obviously wages are part of the equation

What you call "self and selfish", we call freedom. Freedom from an oppressive, "big brother" government, and freedom from people who want to control the lives of others with some sense of "fairness".

As to the government setting wage controls and profit controls, of course that's socialism. The government must control businesses to do that, and that is certainly a form of socialism. You claimed, "I'm not talking about reducing anyone's paycheque," but that's exactly what you are talking about. You want the government to be able to come into a person's business and say, "Your profit is excessive, and your manager's salary is excessive, but no problem! We'll just solve that problem by forcing you to do what we want with your money." Thanks, but no thanks. I'll let you keep what you have. You say you don't "believe" a person should have to work more than one job. That's fine for you to believe that, but I have no idea why you think you should be able to force that belief on others. You seem to view others as weak individuals that need the government to come alongside and prop up their lives by controlling them and the companies for which they work. I much prefer allowing people to live in a free society where that person can accomplish as much, or as little, as he or she is willing to work for.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

What you call "self and selfish", we call freedom. Freedom from an oppressive, "big brother" government, and freedom from people who want to control the lives of others with some sense of "fairness".

As to the government setting wage controls and profit controls, of

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

course that's socialism. The government must control businesses to do that, and that is certainly a form of socialism. You claimed, "I'm not talking about reducing anyone's paycheque," but that's exactly what you are talking about. You want the government to be able to come into a person's business and say, "Your profit is excessive, and your manager's salary is excessive, but no problem! We'll just solve that problem by forcing you to do what we want with your money." Thanks, but no thanks. I'll let you keep what you have. You say you don't "believe" a person should have to work more than one job. That's fine for you to believe that, but I have no idea why you think you should be able to force that belief on others. You seem to view others as weak individuals that need the government to come alongside and prop up their lives by controlling them and the companies for which they work. I much prefer allowing people to live in a free society where that person can accomplish as much, or as little, as he or she is willing to work for.

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Give the people the power and they will take it., The shareholders of our second largest bank just voted against the Board's renumeration recommendations for the second year running, they too are sick of these leeches taking money under false pretences you see they know when enough is enough.

I would rather live here where I know fairness exists than live there in poverty, you should give your people the opportunity to leave since you need a steady stream of poor to fill those low wage jobs.

I doubt this would happen in the US

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-...begun/11804692

We don't need a strong "Central" Government in the U.S.....that is akin to Soviet style configurations....don't need it.

We need a central government strong enough to protect it's ever growing economically diverse population from those that would prey on it's people. We need a central government strong enough to manage the diverse interests of 50 nation states into one country, one society, one law. We already have enough rich guys who exploit cheap foreign labor and sell their stuff here at reduced rates for profits while our own workers get crumbs and reduced wages, and closed factories that destroy whole towns and counties.

Remember the deal the dufus and Pence cut with those Indiana factory workers? Let's just go ask them how well that worked out for THEM. Yeah that's the guy in the WH now!

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Give the people the power and they will take it., The shareholders of our second largest bank just voted against the Board's renumeration recommendations for the second year running, they too are sick of these leeches taking money under false pretences you see they know when enough is enough.

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I have no problem with that. It's free enterprise at work. It's when the governement gets to decide what is "fair" that problems begin. Besides, average wages in the United States are above Australia, so your "fairness" scheme does not seem to be accomplishing a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_average_wage

I agree with your posts Clete and it scares me to think we share the same ideas about economic/social matters so closely!

@JL

Bad idea to compare the USA to any other country, and most disturbing you would support rich guys making laws and regulations that profit them through the elected officials the people choose. It's no wonder we still have poverty in the greatest nation on Earth. Even a blind man can see through the sham of corporate governess and profits that has suppressed wages and the freedoms of average citizens for many decades. Your assault on the working poor, aged, and disabled continues.

Better to compare the economic health of OUR states to each other for a much clearer picture of the FACTS.

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most disturbing you would support rich guys making laws and regulations that profit them through the elected officials the people choose.

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Only in your continuing fantasy world. You really need to get therapy for that. What a strange world you live in. If those rich guys are making laws that profit them, then how do you explain the fact that those same rich guys are paying more than 80% of income taxes? They sure are doing a terrible job of "making laws and regulations that profit them."

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It's no wonder we still have poverty in the greatest nation on Earth. Even a blind man can see through the sham of corporate governess and profits that has suppressed wages and the freedoms of average citizens for many decades. Your assault on the working poor, aged, and disabled continues.

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Yeah. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with drug abuse, out of wedlock births, some abysmally poor public education systems, the violence and threats of gangs in our inner cities, the absence of fathers, and a generational addiction to a welfare system which keeps people in poverty. I'm sure those things have no influence. Yeah, you're bound to be right. It's those mean ole rich people who are to blame!!

Suppressed wages? As usual, you completely ignore the facts. If all these rich guys are conspiring to suppress wages, then they sure are doing a lousy job of it. We have the fourth highest average wages in the world behind only the very small nations of Luxembourg, Iceland, and Switzerland. So you really think we are suppressing wages? Really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_average_wage

It's such an amazing thing. We live, right now, in one of the greatest economic periods of time in the history of the earth, and yet people still want to complain about...the economy!! Low inflation and low unemployment do not normally go together. Enjoy it while we have it. The liberal dems will mess it up sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Only in your continuing fantasy world. You really need to get therapy for that. What a strange world you live in. If those rich guys are making laws that profit them, then how do you explain the fact that those same rich guys are paying more than 80% of income taxes? They sure are doing a terrible job of "making laws and regulations that profit them."

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They are rich so whatever they are doing is working very well and has been for a long time. They can employ many lawyers accountants and LOBBYIEST where you cannot so who speaks to your congress person on your behalf? Who do you think they listen too? It's probably you who is in the fantasy world if you think you influence them more than your local and state businessmen.

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Yeah. Couldn't possibly have anything to do with drug abuse, out of wedlock births, some abysmally poor public education systems, the violence and threats of gangs in our inner cities, the absence of fathers, and a generational addiction to a welfare system which keeps people in poverty. I'm sure those things have no influence. Yeah, you're bound to be right. It's those mean ole rich people who are to blame!!

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Poor people cannot bring in the boatload of drugs, or even fund their schools, or send those fathers to jail, and the second economy is all they have to get a buck. they don't decide where the money goes or who administers to it so stop blaming them for the ills of society. Somebody profits enormously from keeping people poor, uneducated, and unorganized. Follow the money let me know what YOU find.

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Suppressed wages? As usual, you completely ignore the facts. If all these rich guys are conspiring to suppress wages, then they sure are doing a lousy job of it. We have the fourth highest average wages in the world behind only the very small nations of Luxembourg, Iceland, and Switzerland. So you really think we are suppressing wages? Really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_average_wage

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See how you talk past yourself? The FACT they are rich and hold so much wealth despite your claim and theirs they pay SO MUCH in taxes is the evidence they are doing a GREAT job on their own behalf. Not the other way around. How dare you think of yourself as being on the same level with those rich guys just because you work for them! That a dellusion we do NOT share!

That's the problem dude!

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It's such an amazing thing. We live, right now, in one of the greatest economic periods of time in the history of the earth, and yet people still want to complain about...the economy!! Low inflation and low unemployment do not normally go together. Enjoy it while we have it. The liberal dems will mess it up sooner or later.

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It's not like it can't be better for more people. Even if that means helping you crazy talking misinformed wingers. That's the difference between me and you, I want all the boats to rise with the tide, not just the yachts and high end tubs but the handmade canoes too!

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They are rich so whatever they are doing is working very well and has been for a long time

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That's kind of the whole point. What they are doing, for most of them, is working smart and hard.

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Poor people cannot bring in the boatload of drugs, or even fund their schools, or send those fathers to jail, and the second economy is all they have to get a buck. they don't decide where the money goes or who administers to it so stop blaming them for the ills of society. Somebody profits enormously from keeping people poor, uneducated, and unorganized. Follow the money let me know what YOU find.

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They can, however, not take drugs. They can not have children until they are married. And they should have options rather than having to send their children to government schools that don't work. You want to treat these people like they are little children who need liberal dems to come alongside and spend other people's money so they can feel like paragons of virtue. I don't agree with that approach. I'm not rich, but I'm not at all jealous of rich people. As a lover of freedom, I think they should be free to spend their own money as they see fit. Now if you know of laws that unfairly benefit the wealthy, then we can talk about that. But as long as they pay very nearly all of income taxes, then your claim that they have swayed the law in their favor is simply a hollow one.

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The FACT they are rich and hold so much wealth despite your claim and theirs they pay SO MUCH in taxes is the evidence they are doing a GREAT job on their own behalf.

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Let me get this straight. You are claiming that the fact that they pay nearly all of the income taxes is evidence that are doing a GREAT job on their own behalf? Good grief. That's completely stupid.

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How dare you think of yourself as being on the same level with those rich guys just because you work for them! That a dellusion we do NOT share!

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Now you're lying. I've never said that and never believed it. I don't mean to offend, but that has all the appearance of a completely ignorant statement you make since you have nothing logical to appeal to. Besides, during my career in education I did NOT work for them. So your statement is just completely, completely wrong.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That's kind of the whole point. What they are doing, for most of them, is working smart and hard.

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I respectfully submit that by working hard you mean using high paid lawyers and accountants and lobbyist to get your elected officials to write them favorable tax laws and regulations then I would agree.

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They can, however, not take drugs. They can not have children until they are married. And they should have options rather than having to send their children to government schools that don't work. You want to treat these people like they are little children who need liberal dems to come alongside and spend other people's money so they can feel like paragons of virtue. I don't agree with that approach. I'm not rich, but I'm not at all jealous of rich people. As a lover of freedom, I think they should be free to spend their own money as they see fit. Now if you know of laws that unfairly benefit the wealthy, then we can talk about that. But as long as they pay very nearly all of income taxes, then your claim that they have swayed the law in their favor is simply a hollow one.

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I must dismiss this thinking as a personal rant that doesn't deserve comment!

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Let me get this straight. You are claiming that the fact that they pay nearly all of the income taxes is evidence that are doing a GREAT job on their own behalf? Good grief. That's completely stupid.

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Only stupid to the ignorant of how your country fiscally really works. Taxes are not the totality of revenues. Just HALF so where does the rest come from and more importantly who holds the wealth and who pays the bills?

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Now you're lying. I've never said that and never believed it. I don't mean to offend, but that has all the appearance of a completely ignorant statement you make since you have nothing logical to appeal to. Besides, during my career in education I did NOT work for them. So your statement is just completely, completely wrong.

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I am not offended as I never take your posts personally, and sorry if my posts are taken personally by you, but that's honestly not my problem. Not to bust your bubble(?) but even you know that your whole career has depended on you doing as you're told and the results of being a small fish in a big pond that you cannot control. Whether that's willful or involuntary matters little, though I suspect it was willful even as you blame others for poor outcomes, and results, which we have discussed at length before.

I have come to accept that in our discussions and never surprised at your consistency. We seldom agree about most things, no big deal to me.

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I must dismiss this thinking as a personal rant that doesn't deserve comment!

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In other words, you have no answers whatsoever. That's what you always do when you can't think of anything informative to say.

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I am not offended as I never take your posts personally, and sorry if my posts are taken personally by you, but that's honestly not my problem. Not to bust your bubble(?) but even you know that your whole career has depended on you doing as you're told and the results of being a small fish in a big pond that you cannot control. Whether that's willful or involuntary matters little, though I suspect it was willful even as you blame others for poor outcomes, and results, which we have discussed at length before.

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I have never blamed anyone else for the performance of my schools. For one thing, there was never any need to. Thanks to the hard work of many people, we did very well. Blaming others for poor outcomes? Isn't that kind of like holding them responsible? What do you think we should, pat them on the back? As to "doing what you're told", you just revealed that you know absolutely nothing about being a school principal.