That all sounds good on paper, and I don't knock the sentiment, but humans are hard to control, and even harder to understand some of them. Especially the crazier ones.
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That all sounds good on paper, and I don't knock the sentiment, but humans are hard to control, and even harder to understand some of them. Especially the crazier ones.
Can we also say a woman has no right to add another irresponsible act to her firstQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
It takes two to tango.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Albert Ellis, a famous psychologist and father of CBT, said, "Don't should on yourself." Should keeps us stuck, is how we judge ourselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Why is the first one irresponsible?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Whatever your moral and ethical beliefs, sex is not illegal, nor are abortions within the first trimester, so neither is considered irresponsible. What if the BC methods fail? I know women who have used TWO or THREE forms and gotten pregnant. Now what?
There are many things that are not illegal and yet are irresponsible. Overeating and getting fat, for instance, or over-borrowing, or cheating on your wife, or dropping out of school, or drinking too much, or laziness, or not taking your blood pressure meds. The list can go on and on, and certainly should include sex that puts a single woman at risk of becoming pregnant.Quote:
Whatever your moral and ethical beliefs, sex is not illegal, nor are abortions within the first trimester, so neither is considered irresponsible.
So no sex unless there's an iron-clad guarantee she won't get pregnant? Vasectomy, anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Pretty good idea for single women and single men alike. Out of wedlock births are typically an unnecessary hardship on everyone involved. Certainly on the mother, and in particular on the child.Quote:
So no sex unless there's an iron-clad guarantee she won't get pregnant?
Nonetheless, the point is that a great many legal acts can certainly be irresponsible. The two are frequently not connected.
I didn't. Hope you didn't. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That would be correct.Quote:
I didn't. Hope you didn't. :)
I did, but yes humans can be very irresponsible, and even when they aren't stuff can happen. It's not always a bad thing just depends on how that irresponsibility is dealt with.
Something about the whole Abortion thing still has me puzzled: How is it that if a pregnant woman is murdered, the assailant is charged with TWO murders and not one IF, in fact, the unborn baby is not considered a person at that point? It seems that this is a an unreconcilable question and it is one that throws water on the very fundamental foundation of the Abortion argument. Has anyone ever heard how this question has been resolved?
On Quora:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
There are 30 states that have fetal homicide laws where the killing of a pregnant woman is considered double homicide regardless of the age of the fetus. Why isn't an abortion considered a homicide?
William Moore, former Instructor at Chongqing University of Posts and Telecommunications (2015-2017)
Updated May 28
Because the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in Roe v. Wade that Abortion is legal up to a decided time period (before 3rd Trimester).
Any other law that disagrees with this ruling is unconstitutional (by the definition of the word, not the “I don’t like it so it’s unconstitutional” definition that a good number of my fellow Republicans have).
**********
Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 29 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation/development," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).
http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/...tate-laws.aspx
You make a good point but women's rights are apparently sacrosanctQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
W.G.: That still doesn't really reconcile the basic question: If Abortions are legal up to the 3rd Trimester, then why is it that a person can be charged with murder of an unborn child if that child is killed before the 3rd Trimester IN THOSE 29 STATES WHERE KILLING AN FETUS AT ANY STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT IS MURDER? You see, when you really get into the weeds with this and try to look at it succinctly, no amount of parsing or words can differentiate the NON-MURDER from the MURDER: There could be made and argument that the charging of a person for murder of an unborn child is, in fact, UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Something is very perverse about the whole ambiguity.
That's because the Roe decision has no real Constitutional foundation. The appeal was to a supposed "right to privacy" found in the 14th Amendment, which is never spelled out as such in the amendment but rather comes, as I understand it, from the "liberty" reference. The seven justice majority apparently saw no conflict with the right to life which is clearly spelled out in that amendment. As you point out, there is no consistency at all in the law.Quote:
W.G.: That still doesn't really reconcile the basic question: If Abortions are legal up to the 3rd Trimester, then why is it that a person can be charged with murder of an unborn child if that child is killed before the 3rd Trimester IN THOSE 29 STATES WHERE KILLING AN FETUS AT ANY STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT IS MURDER? You see, when you really get into the weeds with this and try to look at it succinctly, no amount of parsing or words can differentiate the NON-MURDER from the MURDER: There could be made and argument that the charging of a person for murder of an unborn child is, in fact, UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Something is very perverse about the whole ambiguity.
There is a process to overturn or clarify Roe, and until that process is gone through, then the law stands as ruled. Not the first time that has happened, nor I doubt the last, in fact such a case is being brought through the court system as we speak, as it should be under our court system.
Seems like a fair observation to me.
I think the rule of law, that applies to all, or should, seeks a balance to what we as people want, and what we actually can get. Is it fair to say the law must take into account that people can and have changed? I think it's very difficult to change back to what once was though, if not nearly impossible. Anything can happen with humans though, we seem to screw things up even as we resolve some issues, albeit temporary as we find new challenges to what we want.
Wonder if God laughs at those attempts sometimes. Or just shakes his heads at our futility.
I can only suggest that people do some research on how abortions are performed. Be prepared to be shocked if you do, and be prepared to consider how we can refer to these unborn children as somehow less than persons.
My experience is that the average person couldn't care less. They just don't want to be bothered, or perhaps they don't want to have to feel some responsibility upon discovering the truth.
Many have JL know for a long time the gruesome details of later term abortions and have for many decades but what if having that knowledge doesn't change minds as you believe? Will you relent your efforts? I doubt it, nor should you but as I have said many times women with resources are empowered to do as they please and you only can bully those without resources to follow your lead. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so I choose the education route rather than making premarital sex a punishment for women and not men. I just believe in education is a better way to behave rather than just pounding abstinence, which has never worked in history. Keep in mind that abortions are done in secret and we can only fret over the known ones, which for fact are not the only ones, and I suspect just a minority part of the whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Consider there are greater truths in people lives than just the abortion issue, especially for women with little resources and support.Quote:
My experience is that the average person couldn't care less. They just don't want to be bothered, or perhaps they don't want to have to feel some responsibility upon discovering the truth.
Not sure how I'm bullying anyone. At any rate, learning what actually goes on during an abortion is certainly an education. As to sex ed, this is the most sexually educated generation in history, and both abortions and out of wedlock births are rampant, so that doesn't seem to work well.Quote:
you only can bully those without resources to follow your lead. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, so I choose the education route rather than making premarital sex a punishment for women and not men. I just believe in education is a better way to behave rather than just pounding abstinence, which has never worked in history. Keep in mind that abortions are done in secret and we can only fret over the known ones, which for fact are not the only ones, and I suspect just a minority part of the whole.
What greater truth is there than the worth and value of a human life?Quote:
Consider there are greater truths in people lives than just the abortion issue, especially for women with little resources and support.
Jl you are fortunate you live in a place where that thought is even contemplatedQuote:
What greater truth is there than the worth and value of a human life?
Good thought. Life is cheap in most of the world.Quote:
Jl you are fortunate you live in a place where that thought is even contemplated
Not you personally is the bully, and sex ed is just the beginning of an education which makes more mistakes than it helps with the one size fits all approach that just skims the top and doesn't address real deep emotional or mental challenges that kids face NOW. Simply to many fall through the cracks for a variety of reasons. Too many are SHOVED through those cracks and who cares about them.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Kids aren't stupid, and they see the value of a human life is not worth that much. We teach them that everyday in many areas of life. By we I mean the structure of our society that makes some undesirable, unwanted, and by no means supported, so it's every dog for themselves and the big dogs eat the little dogs.Quote:
What greater truth is there than the worth and value of a human life?
Some people are worth more than others is the lesson we pass on to the next generation, because that's the lesson this generation learned from the last. Look around guy and you can see the symptoms of a society that's been SICK an awful long time but who cares as long as I worked so hard to get mine.
That's the real history of America and you want to make it great AGAIN? FOR WHO! For too many it never has been that great for them, and they don't see that changing.
Don't you find it strange that we are engaging in all of these educational efforts, and yet out of wedlock births are fantastically greater than they were in 1960 as are abortions? All of these educational programs sure don't seem to be working. You think maybe we should ask ourselves what we did in 1960 that worked so well?Quote:
Not you personally is the bully, and sex ed is just the beginning of an education which makes more mistakes than it helps with the one size fits all approach that just skims the top and doesn't address real deep emotional or mental challenges that kids face NOW. Simply to many fall through the cracks for a variety of reasons. Too many are SHOVED through those cracks and who cares about them.
Then you're saying you are starting to come around on this issue of abortion? What greater display of the cheapness of human life could you have than the wanton killing of unborn children?Quote:
Some people are worth more than others is the lesson we pass on to the next generation, because that's the lesson this generation learned from the last. Look around guy and you can see the symptoms of a society that's been SICK an awful long time but who cares as long as I worked so hard to get mine.
There were fewer of us, social media didn't exist, movies and tv shows promoted family life, churches were full on Sunday mornings....Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
What about the wanton killing of born children at our southern border?Quote:
Then you're saying you are starting to come around on this issue of abortion? What greater display of the cheapness of human life could you have than the wanton killing of unborn children?
Attitudes about marriage have changed greatly and in the 1960's there was no information about abortions, because it was underground in secret and never discussed only whispered about. The 60's was also the time of social upheaval, wars and civil rights. The start of the age of Aquarius sex drugs and rock and roll, because people were tired of the same old repackaged hypocrisy, and in the closet was no way to live. Returning vets of color still had to use the back door of establishments and especially after 'Nam, nothing changed at home and it was the same crap they left to defend a country that still treated them like second class crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Maybe things worked for you in the 60's, but it was just more lip service and BS and how long have you ignored that and still do? Don't you find it strange that our views are so vastly different?
Naw the unborn is the least of my problems as adults and children treated like crap is a bit distracting.Quote:
Then you're saying you are starting to come around on this issue of abortion? What greater display of the cheapness of human life could you have than the wanton killing of unborn children?
Now Tal don't be bitter, Trump has lifted many out of poverty, giving them employment in his hotels and resorts, he wants everyone to have a minimum wage jobQuote:
That's the real history of America and you want to make it great AGAIN? FOR WHO! For too many it never has been that great for them, and they don't see that changing.
The "fewer of us" has nothing to do with the rates of out of wedlock births. Social media??? Now as to entertainment and church, you are on the right path.Quote:
There were fewer of us, social media didn't exist, movies and tv shows promoted family life, churches were full on Sunday mornings....
I don't think that is happening (wanton killing), but if it is it should be stopped immediately.Quote:
What about the wanton killing of born children at our southern border?
How about abortion???
Yes. Many things have changed, and much of it is not for the good. But again, what were we doing in 60 when out of wedlock births were a fraction of what they are now? Abortion numbers? Yeah, they know what they were, and it was much less than now.Quote:
Attitudes about marriage have changed greatly and in the 1960's there was no information about abortions, because it was underground in secret and never discussed only whispered about. The 60's was also the time of social upheaval, wars and civil rights. The start of the age of Aquarius sex drugs and rock and roll, because people were tired of the same old repackaged hypocrisy, and in the closet was no way to live. Returning vets of color still had to use the back door of establishments and especially after 'Nam, nothing changed at home and it was the same crap they left to defend a country that still treated them like second class crap.
Maybe things worked for you in the 60's, but it was just more lip service and BS and how long have you ignored that and still do? Don't you find it strange that our views are so vastly different?
So you're in the "I couldn't care less" camp? Sad.Quote:
Naw the unborn is the least of my problems as adults and children treated like crap is a bit distracting.
Clete, unemployment in Aussie is 5.2%. In the U.S. it is 3.5%. Maybe you guys need to elect Trump after us.Quote:
Now Tal don't be bitter, Trump has lifted many out of poverty, giving them employment in his hotels and resorts, he wants everyone to have a minimum wage job
That's sort of my point JL, I'm talking about one thing, and you're talking about another. You have your social issues and I have mine. Of course you think yours are more important, and I'm fighting for my life and kids and grandkids like my parents before me and before them. It's not like I don't care, but you must understand I'm a bit busy with those that weren't aborted, and need all the help I can give them.
Speaking of the dufus since you brought him up, it's being reported that the offenses he is being impeached for was the tip of the iceberg. He pulled the same stunt with the previous president by with holding military aid until they agreed not to get stuff on Manafort, and not to cooperate with Mueller, and Manafort was the one who convinced the dufus that Ukraine was helping dems against him. Of course we all remember this from 2016.
Yeah Clete take the dufus off our hands, give him a golf course to putz around in.
I'm not suggesting you make it your number one mission in life. I am suggesting you take a solid stand for life and oppose it.Quote:
That's sort of my point JL, I'm talking about one thing, and you're talking about another. You have your social issues and I have mine. Of course you think yours are more important, and I'm fighting for my life and kids and grandkids like my parents before me and before them. It's not like I don't care, but you must understand I'm a bit busy with those that weren't aborted, and need all the help I can give them.
The transcripts released today show Trump as the disgusting thug he truly is. Below, Nicole Wallace covers the bases in just 3 minutes. The recently fired ambassador is on record as fearing for her safety from that evil criminal in the White House.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
In addition to your links above, there's this from Nicole ------
https://twitter.com/i/status/1191463143664427008
The comparison of 1960 Vs. Today in terms of social behaviors is astute and it is fairly easy to decipher: 1960 and before was a time when it was easy to tell right from wrong, black from white, good from bad.....1960 forward, particularly 1965 forward, SOCIAL ENGINEERS got bust trying to destroy the U.S. from the inside out: A lot of the was induced by the same bunch who put together "THE GREAT SOCIETY" where "Hoods"/Government Housing Projects started sprouting up all around the U.S.'s major metropolitan centers....also, right on the heels of the "Great Society" introduction, the rise of illegitimate children born to Black women skyrocketed to what it is today: the highest of any race....BEFORE "The Great Society", the occurrence of illegitimate children in Blacks was the lowest of any race.
One goal of the Social Engineers was to blur the lines between right and wrong, black and white, good and evil....and WE LET THEM.
Not to throw gasoline on the fire but the 1960s was also the decade where the MAJORITY RULE WENT STUPID AND STARTED BENDING TO THE DEMANDS AND WHIMS OF THE MINORITY: How else do you explain how the Madeline O'Hare was able to damn near single-handily take any reference to God out of the classroom......and our social behaviors declined sharply.
God doesn't belong in a public school classroom. I lived through that during the '50s. God belongs in the home and church.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
You need to be sure to tell God where He belongs and where He does not belong. I imagine He will be surprised to find that out.Quote:
God doesn't belong in a public school classroom. I lived through that during the '50s. God belongs in the home and church.
God wasn't removed from the school, students are free to pray whenever they like to whatever God they like. What was removed was the mandatory nature of compelling students to listen to whatever school officials deemed they should, and removing the local LAWS and ordinances that made it mandatory in public schools as unconstitutional. That applies to ALL religions not just Christianity.
There is no such restriction in private schools as far as I know.
How does that seem to be working out?Quote:
God wasn't removed from the school, students are free to pray whenever they like to whatever God they like. What was removed was the mandatory nature of compelling students to listen to whatever school officials deemed they should, and removing the local LAWS and ordinances that made it mandatory in public schools as unconstitutional. That applies to ALL religions not just Christianity.
A very simple solution would be going to educational vouchers and allowing parents to make the choices of whether or not their children should be taught religious principles (such as prayer) in school. It always amuses me that the same people who argue that women should have the "choice" to have their unborn child killed in abortion will then deny school choice to parents once the surviving children are ready for school.
You making a direct link between mandatory school prayer and the state of our union? Why not money in politics, or the cult of hate or explotation of cheap labor, or all the above being contributing factors? Why not crime and corruption? Why not years and decades of no wage growth? Why not economic slavery and isolation? Why not closing plants and moving oversees? Why not your own attitude about who gets to tell people what to do?
It was a simple question. Since we took prayer and the Ten Commandments out of school, which direction has the country, and young people in particular, taken? The other things you listed have been going on as long as we've had our country. Some of what you listed, such as no wage growth, are flatly untrue.Quote:
You making a direct link between mandatory school prayer and the state of our union? Why not money in politics, or the cult of hate or explotation of cheap labor, or all the above being contributing factors? Why not crime and corruption? Why not years and decades of no wage growth? Why not economic slavery and isolation? Why not closing plants and moving oversees? Why not your own attitude about who gets to tell people what to do?
My attitude about who gets to tell people what to do? That's absurd considering that it's what everyone on this board, including you, is doing. We all argue for various positions. Try to avoid the "holier than thou" approach.
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