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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

if you want me to take your moral position seriously,

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It's not MY moral position, it's the moral position of anyone with an ounce of intelligence who pays attention to the events taking place in Clint and other places. Your gross inability to do so belies anything you say on any topic.

You're trapped in a self-imposed prison of Bibliolatry and Trump policies. You should welcome the criticisms you receive here. It gives you a chance to examine your beliefs.

Your own words have exposed you jls, time to shut up or rethink. Your choice.

You must be an octopus, having to hold your nose while you cover your eyes and ears to the truth that the dufus drowns out. Only a dufus could blame others while he has the ball and is the one running with it the wrong way. While Obama and the ones before him were far from perfect this guy has found and keeps finding new lows to slink to.

And you cheer him for it. My friend you are playing for the wrong team, and stubbornly defend a cruel, selfish, liar and cheater and bully who abuses the helpless, no matter the evidence right before your face.

Worse case of TDS I have ever seen! It's an epidemic I tell ya! You far righties should be quarantined.

https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/173/17315/1731508.gif

https://www.arcamax.com/newspics/173/17321/1732149.gif

Wondergirl, you have an article with very little direct evidence. A dozen children have the flu. One infant was poorly cared for. Some children allege they were poorly fed. You have nothing about children being raped or physically abused.

I'm sure there have been some unfortunate incidents, and those should be corrected, but you have no evidence that the great majority of people have not been adequately cared for. Considering that this situation has come about fairly suddenly, and that the Obama admin seems to have done but very little to provide for facilities, then it was kind of foreseeable that this might happen. I'm all for having humane conditions, but I'm not convinced that that is not the case in most of the facilities.

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It's not MY moral position, it's the moral position of anyone with an ounce of intelligence who pays attention to the events taking place in Clint and other places. Your gross inability to do so belies anything you say on any topic.

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OK. It's not your position, so I don't have to pay any attention to it. Thanks!

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You're trapped in a self-imposed prison of Bibliolatry and Trump policies. You should welcome the criticisms you receive here. It gives you a chance to examine your beliefs.

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I do receive all opportunities to examine my beliefs.

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Your own words have exposed you jls, time to shut up or rethink. Your choice.

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Sez you, but like I have said, when you can tell me what you are personally doing to help, other than making offensive remarks on a message board, and when you can point out how you were critical of Obama for his lack of attention to this problem, then that moral position you claim you don't hold might stop ringing hollow.

You might try taking your own advice about examining beliefs.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Wondergirl, you have an article with very little direct evidence.

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You haven't been watching tv and hearing the reports of medical people and others who've been allowed to see what's going on? Oh, yeah. Fox whitewashes.

Would you allow your own small children to visit there for a few days and share the frozen chicken nuggets and tacos, the lice and germs, and get smeared with poop and pee?

https://www.stltoday.com/news/nation...29b5416bc.html

https://www.theroot.com/migrant-chil...fte-1835813375

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You haven't been watching tv and hearing the reports of medical people and others who've been allowed to see what's going on? Oh, yeah. Fox whitewashes.

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I don't watch any of the evening news shows. I asked you for your evidence. It was minimal. If you want to make an accusation, then be prepared to back it up. The two links you provided were just a rehash of the El Paso story you had already linked. It did note that some of the children had not had a shower for several days. Do you not realize that there are virtually no showers in the rural areas of Central America, or that many homeless men have no access to showers? That is what I was referring to when I said that the great majority of them might very well have it better here than where they came from, or that they have it better than many of our homeless people who are American citizens.

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Would you allow your own small children to visit there for a few days and share the frozen chicken nuggets and tacos, the lice and germs, and get smeared with poop and pee?

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I would not take my small children somewhere where I have not been invited and where I have no idea of how we would be taken care of. Would you??

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I would not take my small children somewhere where I have not been invited and where I have no idea of how we would be taken care of. Would you??

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Great answer! Exactly what I expected!

If the part of Chicago where I live was overtaken by drug dealers, gangs, robbers, rapists, general fear that I can't even leave my house, yes, I would go (and take my children) to what I hoped and had been told was a safe place. Apparently, the refugees were told wrong. The US isn't a safe place.

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If the part of Chicago where I live was overtaken by drug dealers, gangs, robbers, rapists, general fear that I can't even leave my house, yes, I would go (and take my children) to what I hoped and had been told was a safe place. Apparently, the refugees were told wrong. The US isn't a safe place.

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I think the refugees are largely safe. You have produced no evidence of widespread conditions of people not being safe. Now are they being fed and housed in an acceptable fashion? I don't know, and I don't think you do either, but I've seen no evidence that there are widespread problems with this. It is sad that children are temporarily separated from parents, but I'm not sure what to do about that, and it does not last more than twenty days, so I just don't know what to say about it. I suspect those people are accustomed to much tougher conditions than you realize. I can tell you some stories just from my own time in Guatemala that would illustrate that.

You did raise a good point about Chicago. Parts of that city HAVE been taken over by drug dealers and gangs and are unsafe, and people are affected by the tens of thousands, and yet you have not mentioned that. Why is it that you people in Chicago do not make your own city safe? Why is it that liberals living in major U.S. cities are so quick to jump on the situation at the border, and yet so silent about the horrendous conditions which exist practically in their own backyards? Can you answer that question for me? Why is that?

It's late and I'm old, so it's lights out for me. Mañana.

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It's late and I'm old, so it's lights out for me. Mañana

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It shows

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It's late and I'm old, so it's lights out for me. Mañana.

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I'm older than you and will be up for a few more hours.

I have been doing what I can to improve Chicago and suburbs. Rome wasn't build in a day.

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I have been doing what I can to improve Chicago and suburbs. Rome wasn't build in a day.

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Not easy, is it? And that is kind of my whole point. Liberal democrat governments have utterly failed in their efforts to make inner city areas safe and productive. In Baltimore, for instance, 13 of the 39 high schools could not produce a single student who scored proficient on the state's mathematics exam. So maybe it's time for liberals to cut the government a little slack on the border and give it some time to get the problem fixed instead of setting your hair on fire and running out of the house screaming bloody murder. Also not a good idea to accuse detention guards of rape and assault without some really good supporting evidence. A little moderation would be in order from the people who can't get the problems in their own backyards fixed. You've had decades and failed, and your plea is, "Rome wasn't built in a day." Well, it's been a far, far shorter period of time on the border.

Not intending to sound impatient, but I'm still waiting for your answer to this question. "Why is it that liberals living in major U.S. cities are so quick to jump on the situation at the border, and yet so silent about the horrendous conditions which exist practically in their own backyards? Can you answer that question for me?"

Chicago has a more dynamic economy than the whole state of Mississippi despite the challenges, so be careful who you call a failure.

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Chicago has a more dynamic economy than the whole state of Mississippi despite the challenges, so be careful who you call a failure.

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You have completely and thoroughly missed the point. You have also dodged the question.

In the meantime, Chicago has more murders in a year than the lowest fifteen states combined.

If you want to suggest that Mississippi has failed in a number of important ways, I would agree with you.

As I have always reminded Clete, more people, more poverty. It's a growing thing, that needs to be solved. The longer it festers, the harder the solution, and the more problems it brings.

Just do the math, start with population per square mile and you will understand the challenge better.

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As I have always reminded Clete, more people, more poverty. It's a growing thing, that needs to be solved. The longer it festers, the harder the solution, and the more problems it brings.

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Poverty of soul is the great enemy. If economic poverty causes crimes, then how can you explain how the crime rate fell during the Great Depression?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Poverty of soul is the great enemy. If economic poverty causes crimes, then how can you explain how the crime rate fell during the Great Depression?

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Noone but the criminals had any money

What Clete said. It is no coincidence that there was and has always been two economies in America. One for the haves, and one for the have NOTS. LOL, guess how the dufus got to be one of the haves?

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Noone but the criminals had any money

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What Clete said. It is no coincidence that there was and has always been two economies in America. One for the haves, and one for the have NOTS. LOL, guess how the dufus got to be one of the haves?

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So I'll ask it again. If poverty causes crime, then why did the crime rates FALL during the Great Depression? And please don't tell me you have to have money to commit a crime. That's a ridiculous idea.

https://www.history.com/topics/great...eat-depression

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New Deal programs were likely a major factor in declining crime rates, as was the end of Prohibition and a slowdown of immigration and migration of people from rural America to northern cities, all of which reduced urban crime rates. Even when the U.S. economy stalled again in 1937-38, homicide rates kept falling, reaching 6.4 per 100,000 by the end of the decade.

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https://www.city-journal.org/html/cr...ion-13399.html

All excuses aside, you cannot escape the fact that poverty increased dramatically during the GP. Now you say that poverty causes crime, but crime decreased during that time, so even if you throw in some government programs, most of which involved work and not sit around and do nothing programs, and all of which still left people in a hard financial situation, how do you account for that decrease in crime? I thought increased poverty would result in increased crime?

I wonder if it could have been the fact that those people were poor in money but not afflicted with poverty of soul, and not given to the idea, as many are today, that my lack justifies me taking from others, and that the culture of the time did not include people running around making excuses for criminal behavior.

Now to be fair, I understand that poverty adds stress to lives, and people might do things when poor that they would not have done outside of poverty, but it is not automatic. The great question is, how do people get into, or out of, poverty? I contend that, in most cases, it starts on the inside. A woman who decides to have three children outside of marriage runs a great risk of poverty. A person who drops out of school in the 11th grade because "it's too dull" is in trouble. People who don't like the concept of work are not in a good position.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

"Why is it that liberals living in major U.S. cities are so quick to jump on the situation at the border, and yet so silent about the horrendous conditions which exist practically in their own backyards? Can you answer that question for me?"

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I'm working to help both.

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I'm working to help both.

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That's good. It should help you realize how difficult it is and hopefully foster some humility.

That still does not tell us why liberals are so quick to breathe fire at Trump for the situation at the border while being so silent about their own challenges in inner cities. If you want to feel sorry for children, try feeling sorry for the tens of thousands of poor kids who are trapped in failing inner city schools and have so little hope for the future.

I will keep it simple. There has always been poverty and crime, it's a challenge that has never been solved despite how sophisticated we think we have become. Maybe as you say it's just the nature of some to be evil, as it is for some to be good, or anywhere in between.

I think it's only natural for liberals to breathe fire at the dufus, as it was for the conservatives to breathe fire at Obama. Geez JL, does any human need an excuse to breathe fire if they don't like something? Some are just noisier than others and you shouldn't blast them for it. The thought of abused children get's people riled up and that's something you know about. Nothing personal, liberals don't abide by the dufus the way you do.

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That's good. It should help you realize how difficult it is and hopefully foster some humility.

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You could have kept that condescending comment to yourself. You are not the only or even the most experienced person on this board you know. I could be over reacting, but just saying!

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Maybe as you say it's just the nature of some to be evil, as it is for some to be good, or anywhere in between.

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I'm not saying that as much as I'm saying it can come down to simple choices that we, as a culture, should value and encourage others to value.

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I think it's only natural for liberals to breathe fire at the dufus, as it was for the conservatives to breathe fire at Obama. Geez JL, does any human need an excuse to breathe fire if they don't like something? Some are just noisier than others and you shouldn't blast them for it. The thought of abused children get's people riled up and that's something you know about. Nothing personal, liberals don't abide by the dufus the way you do.

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I think that's a fair statement. I just want people to get as riled up about abused children in their own city as they do about the reports from the border. If not, then at least admit that the person really doesn't care about children so much as he/she just does not like Trump.

I do get tired sometimes of the constant personal attacks that get launched on this board against someone who is not a flaming liberal and does hold to Christian values. That's why I think your quote above was fair and even-handed. I "abide" by Trump because I like many of his policies, just like you abided with Obama for the same reason.

Those simple choices aren't so simple. Maybe for YOU, but not for others, is all I'm saying. Nice to have choices though, and the wisdom to make good ones. Not everyone has it like that for whatever reason. Seems logical to conclude the bigger the city the more crime there is. The more corruption. More who need and can't get.

Sometimes all your choices are bad ones, so you can only go with the least bad choice. That's pretty screwed up ain't it?

Yes, people are sometimes in tough situations and their options are limited, but that is generally not the case. Women don't have to get pregnant out of wedlock which is a choice many make and is generally devastating for the woman and the child. Dropping out of high school is usually not a necessary choice. Choosing to be lazy is bad. So I'd just like to see our culture return to a time when family, education, and hard work were valued.

They ARE valued by most I think, but some take longer than others to get it, and still more need help finding it, but we have to accept that there are those that don't and won't and deal with them appropriately. You can't save everyone, even if they WANT to be saved.

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but we have to accept that there are those that don't and won't and deal with them appropriately.

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Yes, there are those who make bad choices. I don't see why the government should be able to force an American who makes good choices to take some of his/her money and give it to a person who is making poor choices. They are free to make poor choices, but they should also bear the responsibility for those decisions.

Taking tax money for the general welfare is what governments do. I don't see why the government gives a corporation a tax incentive to close a plant and build a new one in another country. I guess we both have our issues, and different opinions about human suffering be it intentional, or not.

LOL, sometimes having sex is the only feel good in a miserable life. Breeding is the most powerful of human instinct and we suffer from it as well as without it. Some are more evolved than others. I don't exactly condone bad choices or mistakes, but been there and done that, so I certainly UNDERSTAND it.

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Taking tax money for the general welfare is what governments do.

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Yes, but for the GENERAL welfare, which means that which benefits everyone. Highways, national defense, schools, and a system of courts quailfy for that, but taking money from one person for no other reason than to give to another is not the general welfare. And besides, it is typically bad for both persons.

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I don't see why the government gives a corporation a tax incentive to close a plant and build a new one in another country

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That should not be the case. I'm not aware that it is, but if it is, it should be stopped.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That's good. It should help you realize how difficult it is and hopefully foster some humility.

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Calling this statement condescending is the understatement of the year. You are a pompous a**, jsl.

You are the only one on this board who has gone on the record as approving the slaughter of children - first in the Bible, now the abuse of infants and toddlers at the southern border.

You claim to be a Christian who is following Trump's policies. Trump's policy is to abuse children and, by negligence, allow some to die. He is doing this for one reason only - to force the Democrats to fund his wall. You know, the wall you support that was supposed to be funded by Mexico? How gullible can you be? How Christian is that?

Stop whining at how you are treated here on this board - you brought it on yourself with your constant posts denying and refusing to believe what the whole world knows about the situation at the border. You say "I don't watch the evening news". Is that supposed to be some rationalization of your behavior? A pleading of ignorance?

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You are a pompous a**, jsl.

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Thank goodness you don't believe in name calling.

Rather than take your comments one point at a time, I can only suggest you try and keep up with what is being said on this board. Your accusations are ridiculous and easily refuted with what I have said before. I will not bother and say them again for your benefit.

The others on this board who do not agree with me on a number of points manage to keep the conversation civil. You might try doing the same. You seem to be one, evermore angry person. Sad. You might want to try and figure out why.

As to my supposedly condescending statement, it was directed at WG. I can tell you from experience that she is well capable of defending her points of view. If she feels offended, she will tell me.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Thank goodness you don't believe in name calling.

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I make an exception for you.

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Rather than take your comments one point at a time, Your accusations are ridiculous and easily refuted with what I have said before.

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So easy that you can't refute them, can you? I stand by everything I've said.

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You seem to be one, evermore angry person.

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That reply is at least consistent with your inability to defend killing (bible) and abusing (border) small children. The real mystery is why aren't YOU an "evermore angry person"?

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As to my supposedly condescending statement, it was directed at WG.

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"Supposedly"? The target of your statement doesn't change its condescending nature. Trust me, you have nothing to be condescending about.

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So easy that you can't refute them, can you? I stand by everything I've said.

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I don't care.

As to the rest of your rant, I don't trust you, and I see no need to repeat myself for someone who doesn't like to read. I don't care for your nasty, angry approach. You are a liberal version of Donald Trump. You mistake personal attacks for thoughtful responses.

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I don't care.

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I think that typifies your contribution

These lefties are ridiculous . 1st they complain that the kids are sleeping on floors . So the administration contracts to buy beds . Then the workers at the plant protest because the company is going to sell beds for the kids in the detention camps .

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1st they complain that the kids are sleeping on floors .

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As it turns out, the kids were sleeping on concrete floors and in cages during the Obama admin. Not surprisingly, there were no complaints at the time, which makes the outrage exhibited now by so many seem kind of fake.

https://apnews.com/a98f26f7c9424b44b7fa927ea1acd4d4

The real protest Tom is about separating kids from parents. The solution is reuniting families while being processed.

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As it turns out, the kids were sleeping on concrete floors and in cages during the Obama admin. Not surprisingly, there were no complaints at the time, which makes the outrage exhibited now by so many seem kind of fake.

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Obama ended the practice it must be noted (AGAIN) and the dufus brought it back as part of his zero tolerance policy. There was outrage then, so Obama changed the priorities to going after criminals and releasing family groups for judicial processing. The outrage now isn't fake, it's a carryover to an unpopular policy the dufus carries out.

You like distorting facts to blame Obama. Nope this is all on the dufus. BUMMER!

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You like distorting facts to blame Obama. Nope this is all on the dufus. BUMMER!

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Well, here they are, sleeping on concrete floors, in cages, asleep with all the lights on, and using aluminum foil blankets. The primary difference is this was done by Obama, so I guess that makes it alright. This pic was taken in 2014. So far as I can tell, there was no outrage at the time, and nothing much said about in the supposedly non-partisan news media. In fact, it was so little noticed that these same pics were later reused in 18 as supposed proof of what Trump was doing and no one even noticed until it was finally pointed out the pics were from 14. I'm pretty sure that none of the outraged members of this board were outraged then. Politics.

Attachment 49185


In case the photo doesn't load, as it sometimes does not, here's the link.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/imag...ec-960-623.jpg

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The real protest Tom is about separating kids from parents. The solution is reuniting families while being processed.

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It was lefty judges that held that kids can't be detained with adults. The REAL solution is to close the border from illegal crossers .

Nice try, but why do you think Obama ended the practice? Yeah he goofed, and corrected his actions, so when will you make the dufus correct his folly or even acknowledge his doing it is far worse, as he has slowed and stopped the whole process creating this current situation on our southern border. Blaming Obama for what the dufus is doing now is ridicules, and perpetrates another of his more obvious LIES that you seem to like repeating, while leaving out the nasty conditions that your picture is proof Obama DIDN'T do.

Now that's simply outrageous, even for you.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

It was lefty judges that held that kids can't be detained with adults. The REAL solution is to close the border from illegal crossers .

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Or process the LEGAL ones which asylum seekers are. Righties seem to have ignored that FACT of the LAW. Saying it's so doesn't make it so.