Ask Me Help Desk - Medicare for ALL with money left over to buy an aircraft carrier or two

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So he can, all on his own, determine the validity of "divine guidance" someone else received? Wow. That's taking on a big responsibility. I don't think he, or you, or I, or anyone other person is able to, on our own, do such a thing.

Christians all the time judge the guidance of the holy books and holy men of other religions.

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So your answer is that they should not legally be forced to do that? Just asking.

Nope. They are business owners and staff who want to sell their wares. The beliefs and lives of their patrons have nothing to do with anything. I worked in LibraryLand for over 25 years. We never questioned patrons as to their beliefs, how they lived, their motivations. We smiled and showed our love as we helped them with their library needs.

ADDED: I was very pleased to see this article in today's (10/28/18) Chicago Tribune:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/busin...027-story.html

We had our homeless regulars and interacted with them. Someday I'll tell you about Jerry, our very special library homeless guy, who, during our twelve-year friendship, taught me many ways to cope with homelessness.

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Christians all the time judge the guidance of the holy books and holy men of other religions.

Not on our own. Our own ideas have nothing to do with it. Our ideas and beliefs are guided by the Bible.

So the Jewish bakery would have to bake/decorate a cake for the KKK? They would be legally required to do so and could be arrested and fined if they refused? Just trying to clarify your position.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So the Jewish bakery would have to bake/decorate a cake for the KKK? They would be legally required to do so and could be arrested and fined if they refused?

Hello j:

Jews don't look at those things quite the same way Christians do... As distasteful as it was, in the very Jewish city of Skokie, Ill, the Jews SUPPORTED the right of the KKK to march down main street..

I suggest, that in order to SUPPORT free speech, most Jewish bakers would hold their nose, and bake the stupid cake..

https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-hist...-speech-skokie

excon

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So the Jewish bakery would have to bake/decorate a cake for the KKK?

Bake a stupid cake??? Heck, no!!! They would CATER their meal! I predict KKK minds and hearts opening up.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I predict KKK minds and hearts opening up.

Hello again, Carol:

AND wallets.. Nazi money spends just like Jewish money.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Carol:

AND wallets.. Nazi money spends just like Jewish money.

excon

Hello again, excon:

I babysat my way through college in Chicago's western suburbs. The families I regularly sat for were Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish (plus atheist now and then). The ones who quickly and easily made me part of their family by involving me in their religious celebrations and observations, by always having delicious food on hand, and by entrusting me with their delightful children (even the doctor's brood of twelve was a walk in the park) were the Jewish families. It was an eye-opening experience for this small-town Lutheran preacher's kid.

The KKK would only benefit from positive interaction with Jews.

Carol

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Bake a stupid cake??? Heck, no!!! They would CATER their meal! I predict KKK minds and hearts opening up.

Evade, evade, evade. Have some courage. Take a position. Should the law force them to do business with the KKK?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Evade, evade, evade. Have some courage. Take a position. Should the law force them to do business with the KKK?

Why get the law involved? Why force? Like excon said, they'll do it willing.

The KKK AND the Jews can benefit from positive interactions with each other, as can other groups that have opposing points of view.

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Why get the law involved? Why force? Like excon said, they'll do it willing.

The KKK AND the Jews can benefit from positive interactions with each other, as can other groups that have opposing points of view.

Strange how you fear answering a simple question.

How did the law get involved? Go back and follow the thread that started with the law forcing Christian bakers to be involved with gay marriages. The question was then asked, "Should the government be able to force a Jewish baker to do business with the KKK?"

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Like excon said, they'll do it willing.

Neither of you has any way of knowing if they would or wouldn't.

Those bakers need to be educated, not put in handcuffs.

"Those bakers need to be educated."

Chilling, frightening words, that the government, or perhaps Wondergirl, needs to be in the business of telling people what to believe. And remember that there are people (not me!) who believe that the JEWISH bakers are the ones who need to be educated.

You still haven't answered the question of the Jewish baker, but I'm assuming from your post above that you do not believe that either the Christian baker or the Jewish baker should be compelled by law to violate their religious beliefs.

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Chilling, frightening words, that the government, or perhaps Wondergirl, needs to be in the business of telling people what to believe. And remember that there are people (not me!) who believe that the JEWISH bakers are the ones who need to be educated.

Educated in how to love....

Educated in how to love....

That's a good comment, so long as we realize that love demands we tell people the truth.

Like Pontius Pilate asked, "What is truth?"

Like Pontius Pilate asked, "What is truth?"

If you don't know the answer to that, then how do you know we are supposed to love each other?

And what is YOUR truth? I'm betting at least some of it is different from mine. Then what?

And how can we arrive at THE Truth?

And how can we arrive at THE Truth?

[/QUOTE]

I'd go a step beyond that. How can we even know that there is any such thing as truth? If there is no real truth, then you, nor I, can say with any real conviction that people should love each other. It just becomes opinion.

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then you, nor I, can say with any real conviction that people should love each other. It just becomes opinion.

No shoulds. That's legalistic talk that generates guilt. As Dr. Albert Ellis once advised,"Don't 'should' on yourself."

P.S. Read I Corinthians 13.

You're missing the point completely. Why would I read 1 Cor. 13 unless it is the truth? You seem to think that the truth is nowhere to be found, but if you believe truth is in the Bible, then do you accept it all?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You're missing the point completely. Why would I read 1 Cor. 13 unless it is the truth? You seem to think that the truth is nowhere to be found, but if you believe truth is in the Bible, then do you accept it all?

Wow! I guess I'm being too subtle, too philosophical. Do you know what I Cor. 13 is about? As for what I believe about the Bible ... that's a whole 'nother topic.

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Wow! I guess I'm being too subtle, too philosophical. Do you know what I Cor. 13 is about? As for what I believe about the Bible ... that's a whole 'nother topic.

I know exactly what it talks about, but if it's not the truth, then what difference does it make? You're being evasive. What you believe about the Bible is the foundation for what you believe about 1 Cor. 13. You can't separate one from the other. You sure are reluctant to nail down what you believe and why you believe it.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I know exactly what it talks about, but if it's not the truth, then what difference does it make? You're being evasive. What you believe about the Bible is the foundation for what you believe about 1 Cor. 13. You can't separate one from the other. You sure are reluctant to nail down what you believe and why you believe it.

I am a preacher's daughter, have taught Sunday school and adult Bible class for years, attended a Lutheran teachers college, taught in Lutheran grade schools, attended an ecumenical neighborhood Bible class for at least ten years, sent my two kids to a Lutheran grade school (pre-K-8th grade). I have grown in grace and am not a literalist.

Jesus was a Jew, so why haven't you converted JL?

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I am a preacher's daughter, have taught Sunday school and adult Bible class for years, attended a Lutheran teachers college, taught in Lutheran grade schools, attended an ecumenical neighborhood Bible class for at least ten years, sent my two kids to a Lutheran grade school (pre-K-8th grade). I have grown in grace and am not a literalist.

A lot of nice information, but I still don't understand what you believe other than you are not a literalist with the exception of, I suppose, 1 Cor. 13.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

A lot of nice information, but I still don't understand what you believe other than you are not a literalist with the exception of, I suppose, 1 Cor. 13.

Then let's take this into PMs. It's not part of this thread.

OK with me.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Jesus was a Jew, so why haven't you converted JL?

Get a life please, Jesus may have been a Jew by birth but he was more and he founded anew covenant, leaving the old Jewish covenant behind. Being Jewish can't make any one righteous, so why would you convert?

I see what your saying Clete, but if being Jewish doesn't make you right, then how can being a Christian make you right? Or is this part of some evolution or something? I just find it fascinating that we humans can move down the road and start a brand new religion. Don't you? I can certainly see the inspirational value of that.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Neither of you has any way of knowing if they would or wouldn't.

Hello j:

Well, I AM a Jew, after all.. I KNOW my community.. I could be wrong, of course. I was wrong once back in 1997.

I was in the restaurant business. You didn't have to pass a test to be MY customer.. Yes, I'm SURE I did serve some rotten Nazis.

Plus, as a Jew IN business, I KNEW that the courthouse was the place for solving disputes. But, as mentioned, there wouldn't BE any disputes because my only worry about my customers was whether they'd pay me. I didn't give a sh*t what their religion or politics were..

excon

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Plus, as a Jew IN business, I KNEW that the courthouse was the place for solving disputes. But, as mentioned, there wouldn't BE any disputes because my only worry about my customers was whether they'd pay me. I didn't give a sh*t what their religion or politics were..

Yes. That's you, and I get that. But you have no way of knowing what the other thousands of Jewish businessmen/women in American would do. We are talking about what the law should compel someone to do, not what your personal intentions are.

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I just find it fascinating that we humans can move down the road and start a brand new religion.

It had something to do with a man being raised bodily from the dead.

All due respect but can you prove that or are you just taking the word of some ancient man. I am in no way dismissing your faith or belief, but why should I believe you or your bible?

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All due respect but can you prove that or are you just taking the word of some ancient man. I am in no way dismissing your faith or belief, but why should I believe you or your bible?

Actually you are dismissing the Christian faith, but that's your right. Taking the word of some ancient man? You need to investigate the evidence. You plainly have not done so.

Ex why not reconstitute the JDL ? Meir Kahane was always one of my heros .

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Originally Posted by talaniman

All due respect but can you prove that or are you just taking the word of some ancient man. I am in no way dismissing your faith or belief, but why should I believe you or your bible?

Now Tal don't get your knickers in a knot. I'll refer you as I have done others to the book "evidence that demands a verdict", perhaps that will convince you

Clete, we agree on something! Evidence Which Demands a Verdict is a great place to start. If you really try to think about it as you read, then it takes a while to get through it.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Ex why not reconstitute the JDL ? Meir Kahane was always one of my heros .

Hello tom:

That's a terrific idea..

excon, Jewish warrior

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Clete, we agree on something! Evidence Which Demands a Verdict is a great place to start. If you really try to think about it as you read, then it takes a while to get through it.

Yes I've been through it a couple of times, but I don't need it because he revealed himself to me, got my attention you might say

Well I guess I should buy the book if I want evidence of what you say, but cannot articulate.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Well I guess I should buy the book if I want evidence of what you say, but cannot articulate.

Brace yourself for a fundamentalist read. One goodreads commenter said, "This book suffers profusely from circular reasoning, "facts" with no support, and sources that don't matter."

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Brace yourself for a fundamentalist read. One goodreads commenter said, "This book suffers profusely from circular reasoning, "facts" with no support, and sources that don't matter."

1. Have you read it?

2. Another reviewer wrote, "Originally published in 1972, Evidence that Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell has been a trusted resource for believers seeking to always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks for a reason for the hope that is in them (1 Peter 3:15). But as McDowell notes in the foreword, we are to do so with gentleness and respect. That is certainly the tone that comes through throughout this book."