The claim that a military option is ruled out is bogus.
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The claim that a military option is ruled out is bogus.
Tom reaching an agreement is not a failure, you have had to concede that Iran can have a nuclear power industry
Iran has violated more than 20 international agreements and Security Council Resolutions and is the leading state sponsor of terrorism.
How can we trust them with a nuclear deal that prevents anytime, anywhere inspections? Tal is big on 'trust but verify ' .There is no adequate verification program in this deal . That is a deal breaker even if you think it's a good idea.
That's not what the science says Tom, just what the non science guys like you say.Quote:
There is no adequate verification program in this deal . That is a deal breaker even if you think it's a good idea.
Speaking of non deals I notice you haven't got a deal with the TPP either, Once again your dog in the manger attitude of protectionism falls short as you back off things that had been previously agreed. Election year in the boondocks must be close. Free trade really is a non event where the US is concerned. Fact is we don't want you in our markets either
Yes you do, even if you personally don't. LOL, foolish to think you can balance your book on Chinese, Asian, or European financial adjustments alone.
Yes it is an election year in the US.
Ah yes but it is so easy, indonesia didn't want 500,000 to 1,000,000 cattle but China did, Balance achieved, India just loves uranium and Europe, well I'm sure you would like to get their cars out of our market
how can you say that when some sites are not even open to inspection ?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
After the deal is signed sealed and delivered, there will be a process to gain access to previously blocked sites. That's the whole point of the deal, gaining access to suspected sites.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
rubbish ,the emperor knew the Iranians made side deals with the IAEA about the scope of the inspections they would permit . Neither he or Kerry know what sites will be inspected ,when or how .
There are 2 secret side deals on top of the Iran nuclear agreement - Business InsiderQuote:
The agreements were uncovered, completely by chance, by two members of Congress — Rep. Mike Pompeo (R-Kan.) and Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) — who were in Vienna meeting with the U.N.-releated agency.
In an interview, Pompeo told me that he and Cotton were meeting with the deputy director of the IAEA and the agency's two top Iran negotiators just days after the nuclear accord was announced, when they asked how the agency will carry out verification at the Iranian military complex at Parchin. IAEA officials told them, quite casually, that the details were all covered in agreements negotiated between the IAEA and the Iranian government. It was the first they had heard of the side deals.
Pompeo says they asked whether they could see those agreements. He says IAEA officials replied, " 'Oh no, of course not, no, you're not going to get to see those.' And so everybody on our side of the table asked, 'Has Secretary Kerry seen these?' 'No, Secretary Kerry hasn't seen them. No American is ever going to get to see them.' "
It turns out that only the two parties — the IAEA and Iran — get to see the actual agreements (though you can see a picture of Iranian and IAEA officials holding up what appear to be the secret accords here).
In other words, Obama is gambling our national security and handing over $150 billion in sanctions relief to Iran, based on secret agreements negotiated between the IAEA and Iran that no U.S. official has seen.
We were suckered by the emperor and Pelosi when she told us Obamacare would have to be passed for us to find out what's in it . Now we are told that Iran and the IAEA made a secret agreement behind the back of the P-5 +1 and we should be ok with it because the 12ers are so trustworthy . The emperor will get away with it again because he's the HL Mencken of modern American politics. [SIZE=2]“No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.”[/SIZE]
What exactly is the intelligence rating of the american public? How do you rate the IQ of a nation, scientific method suggests you should ask some questions like where is Tuvalu? or even Timbuktu? What is the highest ambient temperature ever recorded? And average the answers and of course you would come up with zeroQuote:
the intelligence of the American public
https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/f...une_2015_1.pdf
I find it both hilarious and SAD congressmen can be so ignorant of a process that encompasses 53 nation states and decades of agreements just like the one with Iran that was just signed. It's been in the works for quite a while Tom, but of course no republican cared to read up on it before they started hollering about it.
https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pres...rk-cooperation
So your so called "side deal" is standard policy for every nation, and mandatory for any signatory of a Non Proliferation Treaty (NPT).
Tal Tom wouldn't know that, it wasn't a law passed by his congress of ningnongs
so tal ,you are not denying that the side deal they made excludes inspection of Parchin and other military sites that we know they have used for nuclear and ballistic missile R&D . I rest my case .
The Iranians made it clear before and after the talks concluded that they would never permit inspection of their military sites . You can be happy with this capitulation but I am not .
Tom, what part of MANDATORY are you not getting here? Your characterization of Iran becoming a signatory to a NPT as a side deal hold no water.
Here's the list of other countries who agreed to the "side deal" with the IAEA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...uclear_Weapons
And another FACT we don't see coming from you "bad deal" guys,
Iran's foreign minister calls for world's nuclear weapons states to disarm | World news | The Guardian
Maybe stop hollering and calling names, and let go of those knee jerk talking points would yield a greater understanding of complex moving parts.Quote:
Patricia Lewis, the research director for international security at the Chatham House thinktank, said: “Most interesting to me is that Zarif is strongly linking the nuclear deal in Vienna to the WMD-free zone. Iran used to be a thought leader in this process – a role it absconded from in recent years. It looks as if once again it may be prepared to take this on as a major issue. The fascinating thing to watch will be how Israel will respond, a country that won’t even reveal its nuclear weapons capability and remains outside the NPT.”
Tom, how much inspection of US military sites is there, perhaps we can have some facts in that
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Russians Inspect Montana Nuclear Launch Facilities | Military.com
Tal ,Even when there are inspections there will be no US IAEA inspectors allowed. The emperor got hosed . You should stop defending a soddy deal that puts the world in greater danger .
Tom I cannot see why you keep saying it puts the world in greater danger when various facilities in Iran are dismantled or modified. If there was/is a danger, then the danger is no greater and should be lessened. You are belly aching about not allowing your spies into their facilities but maybe it takes time to build up trust in the process. As far as Russia and the US are concerned how long did it take to reach this degree of cooperation and how long will it last?
Thankfully the opposition to this deal is bipartisan. Yukiya Amano, the director general of the IAEA, until Friday was refusing to brief senators on exactly how the UN nuclear weapons watchdog would monitor Iran's nuclear activities. Now Amano,will testify to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee Wednesday due to pressure from opposition Dems .Kudos to ranking Foreign Relations member , Maryland liberal Dem Ben Cardin who has taken the lead on this issue. It was insane to put all the verification for this agreement on the IAEA without them giving Congress the details of their inspection plans. Like it or not ,secret agreements between Iran and the IAEA is not the way to 'trust and verify 'compliance as JF Kerry and Secretary of Energy Ernest Moniz would have us believe . You know it and I know it . Given the IAEA past history with verification of Iraqi WMD ,and it's failure to inspect Parchin even though we know Iran has been doing secret nuclear testing there ;it is not wise to hand off all compliance inspections to the UN agency .
I don't get why the IAEA should have to molycoddle your Senate. The IAEA is not there for you to nitpick. They are an experienced organisation who know what they are doing. We don't want another IRAQ where inspectors were saying WMD and they couldn't be found
They had a terrible record on Iraq WMD . All you have to do is read Hans Blix conflicting testimony to the UN in the months leading up OIF . They have had an even worse record about Iran's nuke program. We learned most of what we know from defectors .The IAEA missed one site after another .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
We learned a load of crap from defectors in Iraq and it is not unlikely we have learned a load of crap from defectors in Iran, what part of telling you what you want to hear don't you understand?
It is already confirmed that the sites Iran was hiding ,that were disclosed by the defectors exist . Iran has confirmed that .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Yes so along the way you will get to know whether they have done what they agreed. What I understand is that no one does instant, no one does exactly what others expect, all we can hope for is a robust agreement that we don't need a war to enforce. What we don't need is a war to put an agreement in place, there have been enough battered nations, enough failed nations and we have more than enough conflict.
Tom we too often look to see conflict that might not exist. Right now Russia is a serious concern in the Ukraine. Iran might be making political gains in Iraq, but you choose not to escalate your involvement. Syria just tears itsself apart but it is an artificial construct, a legacy of WWI imperial thinking, the whole of the middle east is the same, part of the great game, which you now play with Russia and Iran. Playing this game has destroyed empires
The strawman argument is that we have to accept THIS agreement or have a war . WE should've walked away until the Iranians agreed to terms close to what we wanted . All this agreement is one way concessions on our part with NO reciprocal concessions on theirs .Quote:
What we don't need is a war to put an agreement in place,
Tom who has been beating the tom toms of war, The US has been threatening Iran for years over this, It is not Iran who has been saying to the US you can't have nuclear weapons, Send another aircraft carrier into the Gulf it may impress them
And what will we do when we walk away and the rest of the world does business with the Iranian? Do you really think the other negotiating partners will walk away with us and continue to punish Iran's economy?
No I don't expect the rest of the world will continue to punish Iran because the rest of the world doesn't have the same issue with Iran. I get it that your embassy was attacked and captives taken, I get it that you got your asses kicked in a failed rescue attempt setting the scene for long term issues between you.
I get it that they have a philosopy so foreign to you that you want regime change. I get it that you fought a proxy war with them using Saddam. I also get that you are responding to pressure from Israel and your own jewish lobby. What none of us want is another US preemptive strike and belligerousness from US republicans and hawks.
Walk away from the deal if you want and we will go back to the same crap we have heard for the last ten years and teh Iranians will continue their enrichment to gain plutonium. The Iranian rhetoric has toned down in recent times. They have a focus on daesh because unlike yourselves daesh is a real threat. Syria is a key ally for them, the shiites of Iraq are important and they have the military capability to put boots on the ground
Who ? Me ? What bs ! Under the emperor ,the US treats Israel as the pariah ,not Iran (the worlds biggest state sponsor of terrorism).Quote:
I also get that you are responding to pressure from Israel and your own jewish lobby
Again with the strawman false choice . Make a deal with Iran when they are serious about making a real deal . Essentially ,all this deal is capitulation and concessions without anything reciprocal. The Iranians were ALREADY under the inspection regime of the IAEA .The sanctions were for VIOLATIONS of UN mandates . So what was gained ? The only beneficiaries from this deal are the Iranians . They give nothing in return .Quote:
What none of us want is another US preemptive strike and belligerousness from US republicans and hawks.
No your republican politicians, didn't you allow the Israeli PM to address your congress? In the middle of your negotiations with Iran? What message did that send? That the american government is whiped by a bunch of jewish political contributions. I have another name for it but the editor would edit it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
When will you realise you got the only deal you were going to get, they weren't going to dismantle their nuclear power industry for you. You have been forced to give them back their own money and allow them to have normal relations with other countries but guess what, no trade deal for you! The Irans had to dismantle a significant part of their industry, where do you get the idea they didn't have to give anything away?Quote:
Again with the strawman false choice . Make a deal with Iran when they are serious about making a real deal . Essentially ,all this deal is capitulation and concessions without anything reciprocal. The Iranians were ALREADY under the inspection regime of the IAEA .The sanctions were for VIOLATIONS of UN mandates . So what was gained ? The only beneficiaries from this deal are the Iranians . They give nothing in return .
Tom in international diplomacy big gains are rare, incremental progress is what you hope for. You have been the bully on the block for so long you think that every idea you have is going to be accepted but 95% of the world don't think the way you do. Obama has just done the grandstand thing on climate change and he thinks the rest of us will fall in line before he proves he can actually put it in place, it's another Obama photo op and a diversion from that other debate. He wants to give his congress something to chomp on 'cause they can't chew 'baccy and spit at the same time. What's better than an internal issue that will get their local constituents hollerin' and while they are dealing with that the Iran deal will slip quietly into the sunset
I agree with you 100%.Quote:
No your republican politicians, didn't you allow the Israeli PM to address your congress? In the middle of your negotiations with Iran? What message did that send? That the american government is whiped by a bunch of jewish political contributions. I have another name for it but the editor would edit it out.
I remember repubs doing the same thing to King Reagan back in the day, when he was talking to Gorby, Nixon too, with China. Everything Obama does is a disaster according to repubs anyway so no surprise they holler long and hard yet again.
Netty is a crybaby, with hundreds of Nukes himself, and while NO ONE trusts Iran, repubs and Netty want NO constraints on the country that's already told him and the US, screw you guys for decades, so it's safe to say the repub/Netty way has gained NOTHING over years.
To even think we should go back to that strategy, is an even worse deal than Obama's by far.
And they have waged war against the US since 1979 .There are thousands of US deaths and 10s of thousands injured and maimed directly from Iranian Qod forces and their many surrogates . Stop making excuses for them . We were justified in turning the whole country into a glass desert many times since 1979 .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Proof?Quote:
10s of thousands injured and maimed directly from Iranian Qod forces
Thousands of US deaths, this is drawing a long bow Tom, if your government believed that you would have been at war with Iran years ago
you guys ignore the news even when it comes from one of your favorite sources . Geeze ;this is old information known since 2006 when US troops were taking some of the highest casualties on the Iraq war. Iran was providing their surrogates in Iraq with shaped plate armor penetrating EFPs . The bulk of US casualties in Iraq were from road side bombs that Iran provided.
EXCLUSIVE: Iraq Weapons -- Made in Iran? - ABC News
American forces also did battle with Shiite militias directly backed by Iran during the height of the war. The Iranian leader Quds Force, Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani, led much of the militias’ campaign against United States forces .
The Iranians ,through their surrogates in Lebanon killed 241 US servicemen in Beirut .
The Iranians were directly responsible for the Kobar Towers bombing that killed 19 US servicemen. The 1983 bombing of the US embassy in Kuwait was directly linked to Iran .The 1984 hijacking of TWA 847 that killed . U.S. Navy Diver Robert Dean Stethem was conducted by Iranian sponsored terrorists .
Yes Tom but it seems an american death in a far away place doesn't have the same value as a death in New York otherwise the avengers would have not only attacked Iraq they would have carried on to Iran. Your problem is you can't fight in three theatres at once. If your government believed they were being attacked by Iran then they should have sent a few cruise missles, at least, to Teheran. I expect you knew this would bring Russia in and you wanted to avoid that prospect. No, you reserved your best efforts for places where you had, on paper at least, numerical superiority, and of course, you didn't want to cut off oil supplies in the Gulf otherwise your allies would be directly threatened. Those american lives were expendiable, sorry to tell you that, but no other conclusion can be drawn but you allowed that the tail on the tiger to be twisted and all this crap about Iran and nuclear weapons was payback
And how did all that Iranian aggression workout for King Reagan, and Pappy Bush?
all I can speak to is my policy ideas . I don't agree with the current adm that dismisses these obvious attacks on US sovereignty and American troops .I don't agree with Bush when he got gun shy after properly identifying the 12ers as part of an axis of evil .He was 3-3 on that call btw . But he got soft when the going got tough. The fact remains that Iran has waged war against the US and the only thing we did reciprocally was the sanctions . And now the emperor is giving that option up with nothing in return .Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
The reality of US electoral cycles and your enemies don't suffer from this drawback
Perhaps it is that he believes you can no longer fight a war for ever. Ten years of war has crippled you as far as capability goes, these are no longer the days you can fight a hundred years war and the armies of Asia are huge so you cannot fight them on their own territory, Even Korea should have taught you that lesson but you had to learn it over again in Vietnam. It is good you are leaving Afghanistan
The Nuclear deterent has only deterred Russia it hasn't deterred these other nations from twisting your tail because they know you are not going to use the bomb except as a last resort
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