The baker and florist, business people, do not participate in ANY wedding.
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The baker and florist, business people, do not participate in ANY wedding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Actually yes they do. Atleast if they are good ones. They may play a role that is near the sidelines but they are there to make sure everything goes correctly and according to the customers wishes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Persons of deeply held religious beleifs may be forced to perform acts that go directly against what they beleive. Since it is currently a right to paticipate or not in a religious beleif then you are mandating by the government what and how you should beleive.
Seems that with this decision the government has placed itself directly into the path of being a religious zealot and forcing others to attend under threat of punishment.
Nope no more melting pot. The government has seen to that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdumQuote:
Since it is currently a right to paticipate or not in a religious beleif then you are mandating by the government what and how you should beleive.
Poke fun if you like but how about proving me wrong ?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
According to Tom, just baking a wedding cake is participation enough to go against one's religious beliefs. Like the pharmacist who cannot sell birth control pills. I am sure not all bakers and florists feel that way, and there must be a free market solution, but the gloom and doom end of the world stuff is a bit paranoid. Change and inclusion as set in our own constitution may not be smooth, and not every judge is a liberal bleeding heart, but it seems every time some group wants a piece of the equality dream somebody always finds a reason to deny it.
Obviously we have not arrived at creating that perfect union yet. YOU would have to be blind if you think we have.
My dad was a minister and officiated at innumerable weddings, including his children's. I have, as an adult, been to scads of weddings. The florist and baker deliver their goods before the wedding, then disappear back to their shops. They don't hang around to make sure of anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdad
I will add that I have done many weddings and blessings.
It is at some point, if someone professes to be a Christian, where do they draw line. Most like to talk, and then say we will pray from the safety of their pew on Sunday morning. To me, they are as bad, if perhaps as worst as those who merely go along and do things against their religious teachings.
The idea at least when you read the Bible, there is risks to being a Christian. None of the 12 disciples retired to a rich beach house. Most were tortured or killed for their beliefs. Today in many parts of the world, Christians are put in prison, beaten or killed merely for their beliefs. But they hold on to their beliefs, I doubt if more than 4 or 5 percent of people in America, who "claim" to be Christian, would stand up and declare they are, if they faced torture or death.
There is a simple answer for Christians, all Christian churches, declare that they will no longer obey any law that is against their teachings. They don't worry about tax exemptions, and their members refuse to issue gay marriage license, refuse to have any dealings with gay marriages.
If America really is (and I do not believe it is) it would be simple, the government can not put in jail millions of Christians, it can not take 100's of thousands to court.
And if a few lose their jobs or business, let the churches support and help restore them for doing their Christian duty.
Chuck christians have forgotten to rely on the power of God and this is because many are nominal and do not know that God has no grandchildren.
You want to know where to draw the line? At the biblical standard. Either you believe or you do not. There isn't any half in and half out. I am not for Islam but Islam would not allow what has just been done in the US. The US has just proven what Iran has suspected and declared for decades. I hear voices saying that what has been done is a victory for freedom, that people are somehow more free, and I wonder how the majority can somehow swallow such nonsense. Did the founding fathers fight for this sort of freedom? Did they liberate a nation to licensiousness?
They did it for the free labor, and the right not to pay taxes to the homeland. And burn a few witches along the way, while running the heathens off their lands. No blood on Christian hands from any examples of history.
They are as flawed as the rest of the humans.
Tal you said they did it to run the heathens off their lands, how come the heathens have been allowed to take over? No one is free of blood Tal, Not christians, Not muslims, Not heathens, this is because no one heeds the instructions there seems to be "a you couldn't mean me" clause
Nobody on the left calls it a melting pot anymore . I've heard phrases like "quilt " or "mosaic " . In other words ,there is no unique assimilation per se.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdad
The fact that the cake they bake is being used in the ceremony makes them participants . Suppose a Jewish baker was force to bake for a neo-nazi event . Would he be subject to the same standards that you would impose on a baker who holds deeply held objections to homosexual weddings ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
I am in favor of the elimination of the tax exempt status for religious institutions . It compromises the church's independent position and I also think they could be successfully challenged over the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment .Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
What a jaded view you have of your countries history !! Why do you stay in a land you despise so much ?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Nope, wrong.Quote:
The fact that the cake they bake is being used in the ceremony makes them participants
Do you not read your own posts? Go back and read your history of posts here at AMHD.Quote:
Why do you stay in a land you despise so much ?
That's the problem isn't it? Nobody wants to be assimilated by you. Live and let live. The country would be better for it. Then you won't have a freak out when your fellow Americans partake of their own dreams. Not serving a customer because of YOUR religious beliefs is a crock of CRAP!Quote:
In other words ,there is no unique assimilation per se.
Christianity isn't being assaulted, it's being ignored for truth and reality, and rightfully so considering the actual practice of it, as the institutions have failed its people and began to crumble long before gays decided to live in light, and not the closet.
A true Christian (or Muslim) would welcome others with love, and not beat them into conversion, to be ASSIMILATED! A people are judged by how they treat the least of them, not what they make them do.
How the hell can you serve a GOD when you cannot even serve a fellow human when all he wants is for you to bake him a freakin' cake? Enough of this self righteous hypocrisy. Get real, and realize WHY you are having such a bad week!
Tal you may have understanding of the message of Christianity but you have certainly missed the message in Islam. Islam is assimulation, convert or die, our way or the highway and no room for gays there either. Would a muslim bake a cake for a gay wedding? Probably comprised of C4.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
What is not realised is christianity is way of life not a religious observance, but the fact is there are rules and they are being broken by people of all persuasions.
You talk about freedon but the baker should be free to serve who he chooses in his shop without someone getting their nose out of joint, his right to free speech and freedom of association is just as strong as anyoneelses. If you walk into a store and they don't have what you want you go someplace else or perhaps not you're the type who would hold a protest and conduct a boycott
Nope ;being compelled by the government to violate your religious beliefs is what is a crock . You make it sound like being served by a business is a right . Hate to clue you in but the Civil rights act makes it illegal to refuse service based on race, color, religion or national origin. Places of “public accommodation” include hotels, restaurants, theaters, banks, health clubs and stores. Nonprofit organizations such as churches are generally exempt from the law.Quote:
Not serving a customer because of YOUR religious beliefs is a crock of CRAP!
Where does it say sexual orientation ? It doesn't . Should it ;probably yes . However if it means having to give your services to a ceremony that you have religious objections to then too bad . Find another baker ,minister ,florist ,caterer , dj to do the job. The only one who loses under that is the person who is refusing the service .
Fr Chuck is right. Churches have to take a stand if they are subject persecution by your tyranny .And believe me ....it is tyranny to force churches to perform religious services against their will. It is tyranny to tell a religious adoption service that they MUST adopt children to homosexual couples . It is tyranny to tell religious institutions that they MUST provide abortion pills to their employees against their religious beliefs .
Congratulations . Your side got what it wants again .... a war against religious rights . Doesn't surprise me . The left proves over and over again it opposed religious liberty ....and most of the rest of the 1st amendment for that matter .
It's but the latest trick to legalize discrimination, promote hate, and marginalize another human. The others were struck down, so to will this one.
Not even ALL Christians are down with that Tom.
Why aren't we all questioned at the door as to our sexual orientation? Who's going to undress me to see if I'm transgender or check my into my sex life to see if I kiss other women? (I've heard that those who scream the loudest are the most insecure.) Or maybe most businesses welcome customers who BUY stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I keep wondering why this is an argument, fact is most of the gay community live among the gay community, it is only when they stray there is conflict
That's not true in the US. They might be your neighbors, eeeeek! I know four same-sex couples who've been together 25 years and longer who own homes in upper-middle class neighborhoods. And two of those couples adopted babies years ago. And guess what -- those babies had terrific childhoods and are straight adults with successful careers.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
No they are a bit thin on the ground in some parts of the country and there are areas in our cities well known for their communities but then a lesser percentage of our population appears to have that preference. I don't agree that children should be raised by same sex couples
Why do you intentionally misrepresent my position. Nowhere do I say that homosexuals should be denied service because they are homosexuals. What I am saying is that a business owner should not be compelled by law to service or participate in ceremony that they have religious objections to. The florist who got in trouble for not providing flowers for a homosexual "wedding " had been selling the same homosexual customer flowers for other reasons for years .Quote:
Why aren't we all questioned at the door as to our sexual orientation? Who's going to undress me to see if I'm transgender or check my into my sex life to see if I kiss other women? (I've heard that those who scream the loudest are the most insecure.) Or maybe most businesses welcome customers who BUY stuff.
Evidently the 14th Amendment supersedes the 1st ,even though the interpretation of the 14th applied is an expanded invention of progressive courts.
Yes maybe MOST business owners have no objections ... Let them service the "wedding" then .The only monetary loser is the business that doesn't participate
What is happening in some cases (and I suspect will happen more frequently as acceptance of a lifestyle choice is forced upon us) is that businesses that have these objections will be sought out and punished. An Indiana pizzeria was thrust into the national spotlight when it's owners daughter said that IF a homosexual couple wanted pizza at their "wedding " ,they would refuse to make them.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
The backlash was so severe that they were forced to temporarily shut down. Of course the misleading headlines like "Indiana pizzeria won't serve gays " didn't help .Quote:
“We service anyone. I don’t care who it is. I don’t care if they’re covered with tattoos, I don’t care if they got rings in their ears. I don’t care if they’re gay. The only thing I said was I cannot condone gay marriage," O'Connor, 61, told The Times. He said he believes his decision not to cater same-sex weddings is simply an expression of his religious beliefs.
"If they want to come in the store, that’s their privilege, they can do that. But I can’t condone gay marriage, that’s against my belief," he added.
I expect to see similar attacks around the country . We've seen it in states that already allowed same sex "weddings" . Now we'll see such efforts nationwide.
Indiana is also the place that passed and was signed by Pence the right to discriminate against gays. The business community quickly moved to back that down. A free market solution?
Lets add those states that have gone so far as to not issuing a marriage licence to gay couples where it was ruled unconstitutional to ban gay marriage. You may see this as an attack on religious rights, but I see this as gays and others exercising their own rights to protest, speak out, and seek legal redress.
and where does it end ? Discrimination suits against churches that won't provide same sex marriage counselling ? You've already proven that in your view , those who believe in traditional religious beliefs are to be labelled bigots ;to be treated as such in the eyes of the law.Quote:
You may see this as an attack on religious rights, but I see this as gays and others exercising their own rights to protest, speak out, and seek legal redress.
We know at very least ,the tax exempt status of those institutions will come under attack.
You nailed it. I can only add that I feel that way about mosques and synagogues, as well as churches. Is it unrealistic to hold them to a higher standard of good behavior?
For sure their should be boundaries to their power, and authority, over the citizens they serve(?). Or do you think protecting pedophiles and terrorists is a good thing?
good ,your argument has reached absurd. No one was condoning physical harm .
But I get it . Unless you demonize your opposition, the general public will have little appetite for forcing Christians to pay for abortion pills, or forcing Christian bakers or photographers to help celebrate events they find morally offensive.(they wouldn't even dare attempt to compel a Muslim to work their "weddings" ).
Religious freedom laws protects all people (even you) from persecution by those who would force them into doing something they find morally objectionable .
Putting religion above the law is absurd.
Why don't Christian bakers and florists refuse to sell to marrying couples who were previously married and got divorced, and to couples who lived together and fornicated before their scheduled wedding? Even Jesus spoke against them in Mark 10 and in other parts of the Gospels.
So you are saying Tal that your constitution which has a clear separation between church and state is absurd, You may as well throw the whole thing away and start again because what you are saying is that the legislature which exists under the constitution can pass laws that supercede the consititution and this is not so. Religion is an involiate freedom and no homosexual should be able to challenge that freedom.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Wondergirl, they might if they could identify these people, the only reason they are objecting to homosexuals and identifying them is the message or some other part of the process is clearly identifying the occasion as homosexual
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