what is amazing is where these debates lead, always to the baser parts of human nature
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what is amazing is where these debates lead, always to the baser parts of human nature
I'm one who's pretty tired of this late June ritual of waiting breathlessly for these unelected oligarchs to make narrow decisions on our liberty . Nothing was won today except that we lost a little less religious liberty than we thought .
[why do you have to wait until June or is it summer madness?
because SCOTUS traditionally waits until summer recess before they make major rulings.
The emperor will make an executive order to skirt SCOTUS . After all ,the contraceptive mandate was one of his decrees. A small part of it was whittled away and the bulk of the nation still has to comply to his edict.
I see they need to shine some light on their findings as if the dark halls of the courts lack illumination
Once Roberts made law by rewriting Obamacare ,then it was inevidible that they'd have to jump hoops and twist like a pretzel to dissect each part of the law that gets challenged. In the end ,the law will be more or less the construct of SCOTUS ;the unelected branch.Quote:
I see they need to shine some light on their findings as if the dark halls of the courts lack illumination
You just changed the argument from an arts and crafts store to a christian book store. Why did you feel the need to do that?Quote:
So no one works in a Christian book store because it's a Christian book store?
Why do you feel the need to be wrong? I specifically listed 3 faith-based businesses, one of which is Mardel, owned by the Hobby Lobby guys.
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Do you moonbats not understand that probably a lot of women work for Hobby Lobby, Mardel and Chik-Fil-A BECAUSE of their owner’s morals and not in spite of them?
Scotus suggests the same accommodation for religious organizations can be made for employees of companies like Hobby Lobby, but I think a companies religious freedom stops at the religious freedom of the employees, and many more companies will start claiming religious freedom affecting even more employees.
I don't think insurance companies are as ready to be accommodating as the government or scotus. Covering some birth control, and not others is a sham to begin with.
Karma why do you continually show your arrogance and ignorance in these matters? I once began a Christian Book store to be a Christian Book store and worked there voluntarily something I would not have done in an ordinary book store. Faith is important, as you have no faith you have no idea. I have seen and done inexplicble things done in faith and without faith it would not have been possibleQuote:
So no one works in a Christian book store because it's a Christian book store?
People of faith have a particular view and scripturally they are a pecular people in the eyes of people like you
Been listening to Mimi Pelosi, eh? So let's put that to the test. A pharmacist says his religious beliefs won't allow him to dispense abortifacients. What now?Quote:
but I think a companies religious freedom stops at the religious freedom of the employees
Because you both are wrong. I was referring to people getting employment with arts and crafts stores and restaurants. I'm certain the job market isn't that slanted towards the job seekers in that they can leisurely research the background of all owners. Steve then changes the argument to only Christian book stores to try to salvage his point.Quote:
Karma why do you continually show your arrogance and ignorance in these matters?
So you know more than 9 Supreme Court Justices who have heard all the arguments, saw the evidence, and a Majority sided with.
A true socialist mindset...believing the workers have domain over the actual business owners who built the business and did all the investment to make it work.
If they don't like it...they can go down the street and work for someone else that does offer it.
Obamacare was never voted on....it was rammed through with trickery and deceit. Forced upon a population where the vast majority want nothing to do with it.
It wasn't your point it was mine. The facts don't disappear because the page changes. "Do you moonbats not understand that probably a lot of women work for Hobby Lobby, Mardel and Chik-Fil-A BECAUSE of their owner's morals and not in spite of them?"Quote:
Because you both are wrong. I was referring to people getting employment with arts and crafts stores and restaurants. I'm certain the job market isn't that slanted towards the job seekers in that they can leisurely research the background of all owners. Steve then changes the argument to only Christian book stores to try to salvage his point.
You live in a bubble if you can't get what's obvious.
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At Hobby Lobby, we value our customers and employees and are committed to:
- Honoring the Lord in all we do by operating the company in a manner consistent with biblical principles.
- Offering our customers exceptional selection and value in the crafts and home decor market.
- Serving our employees and their families by establishing a work environment and company policies that build character, strengthen individuals and nurture families.
- Providing a return on the owner's investment, sharing the Lord's blessings with our employees, and investing in our community.
We believe that it is by God's grace and provision that Hobby Lobby has endured. He has been faithful in the past, and we trust Him for our future.
Hobby Lobby is THE place to shop with everyday Super Selections and Super Savings! Store hours are Monday through Saturday from 9 a.m. to 8 p.m. and all Hobby Lobby stores are closed on Sunday.
Our other affiliated companies headquartered in Oklahoma City include Mardel and Hemispheres.
You already know about Chik-Fil-A, those gay-hating closed on Sundays guys. Now man up and stop misrepresenting my posts please.Quote:
About Mardel
Mardel Christian & Education is a faith-based company dedicated to renewing minds and transforming lives through the products we sell and the ministries we support. To this end, we provide a large selection of Bibles, books, movies, gifts, music, kid products, apparel, church and educational supplies, and homeschool curriculum.
We offer quality products at the best prices on Mardel.com and across our 35 stores located in the central region of the United States. Our products share truth, teach knowledge, offer encouragement, inspire worship, and bring joy – fulfilling the vision of Mardel to make a difference and give hope.
Furthering our mission, we faithfully give 10% of our net profits to help print Bibles translated by Wycliffe Bible Translators. Wycliffe Bible Translators is a ministry dedicated to translating the Bible into the language of every people group around the World.
We are a resource center equipping the whole person – specializing in the provision of all your spiritual and intellectual needs.
They skirted the larger 1st amendment issue in favor of a "narrow" ruling about Obamacare and RFRA . Congress can remedy this by amending either RFRA or Obamacare . More likely the emperor or his flunkie at HHS will make another decree from on high.Quote:
Scotus suggests the same accommodation for religious organizations can be made for employees of companies like Hobby Lobby, but I think a companies religious freedom stops at the religious freedom of the employees, and many more companies will start claiming religious freedom affecting even more employees.
I don't think insurance companies are as ready to be accommodating as the government or scotus. Covering some birth control, and not others is a sham to begin with.
talk about a storm in a teacup
Congress will do SQUAT! They have done nothing about any of the SCOTUS rulings so in a vacuum, the president has no choice but to act.
Yup, he'll just make us pay for them. The hysterics are just that, hysterics.
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Imagine that a woman starts work at Hobby Lobby tomorrow morning — July 1. She joins Hobby Lobby’s health care plan. It includes access, copay-free, to the following categories of FDA-approved birth-control:
- Male condoms
- Female condoms
- Diaphragms with spermicide
- Sponges with spermicide
- Cervical caps with spermicide
- Spermicide alone
- Birth-control pills with estrogen and progestin (“Combined Pill)
- Birth-control pills with progestin alone (“The Mini Pill)
- Birth control pills (extended/continuous use)
- Contraceptive patches
- Contraceptive rings
- Progestin injections
- Implantable rods
- Vasectomies
- Female sterilization surgeries
- Female sterilization implants
(This new woman at Hobby Lobby cannot use male condoms or a vasectomy, at least not directly. However, if she chose either contraceptive method, in conjunction with her husband, she would have access to it.)Further, not only would she have access to these medicines and devices, but Hobby Lobby would fund them. That’s right: while White House press secretary Josh Earnest claims that it “jeopardizes the health of women,” Hobby Lobby’s health plan pays for 16 different kinds of contraceptives for its female employees!In the Left’s fantasy world, the militant Christians at Hobby Lobby police single female employees to assure that they have not engaged in sinful, pre-marital sex. As for married women, Hobby Lobby deprives them of birth control so that each can deliver a new baby every nine months, for God’s glory, just like in the Old Testament.Liberals are living in a cartoon of their own making.Again, Hobby Lobby’s health plan pays for birth-control pills, vaginal rings, contraceptive patches, and other items to help female employees plan their pregnancies. The Left’s arguments to the contrary are — surprise, surprise — lies.What Hobby Lobby will not cover are four contraceptive methods that its owners fear are abortifacients:
- Plan B (“The Morning After Pill”)
- Ella (a similar type of “emergency contraception”)
- Copper Intra-Uterine Device
- IUD with progestin
Rather than simply prevent sperm and ova from uniting, Hobby Lobby’s owners believe that these medications either kill human beings when they are fertilized eggs or prevent them from implanting themselves in utero, whereupon they die.Hobby Lobby does not prevent its female employees from using any of these four types of contraceptives. However, since they believe these innovations kill babies, they simply require that any employees who want to use them buy them with their own money.The Left behaves as if Hobby Lobby were forcing their female employees to wear burqas. But Hobby Lobby’s policy is no different than, say, walking into the cafeteria at Yeshiva University and demanding a bacon cheeseburger.“I am sorry,” the cafeteria manager replies. “We keep kosher. If you want a chicken sandwich or some brisket, we can help. Indeed, our prices are subsidized. So, we will help you buy those items. But if you want to mix milk and meat and bite into a pork product, please purchase a bacon cheeseburger at the restaurant across the street. When you are done, please come back to work.”
Bullsh*t. There never was a crisis and it doesn’t work that way, we don’t have an imperial presidency, you don’t get to do whatever you want just because you’re a petulant loser who didn’t get his way with Congress. If Hobby Lobby employees want to kill their babies they can pay for it themselves. Otherwise, they can enjoy the HL funded contraceptives they’re provided.Quote:
the president has no choice but to act.
P.S. You didn’t answer my last question.
Steve,
I don't doubt that's what their mission statement says, I never disagreed there. Where I disagree is you saying that employees seek out employment there BECAUSE of those mission statements. I thought I was pretty clear on that.
Hobby lobby isn't selling a product here they are limiting choices based on belief, that has no basis in science. They know better than a doctor what's best for a patient and call it a benefit?
Stopping an egg from being fertilized is NOT abortion. And none of their business. But effective birth control methods eliminate the need for abortions. Ignoring the scientific facts is what makes the religious right WRONG. What we got is good enough no need for anything better, is WRONG!
The boss telling a woman what her health choices should be is WRONG! The boss having more rights than workers is WRONG! Beliefs got nothing to do with it. Corporations are not people.
I don’t disagree that for some it’s just a job, but you’d be a fool to think a company’s values don’t play into people’s decisions on employment. There’s a Mardel half a mile from my work, most of the employees obviously see it as part of their ministry, not just a job, so the feminist overlords need to just butt out. They knew what they were getting into when they took the job.Quote:
don't doubt that's what their mission statement says, I never disagreed there. Where I disagree is you saying that employees seek out employment there BECAUSE of those mission statements. I thought I was pretty clear on that.
OK, are you not paying any attention? Hobby Lobby furnishes 16 methods to prevent fertilization. What's the problem?Quote:
Stopping an egg from being fertilized is NOT abortion.
Still waiting on an answer to this.
It is the Congress that was dominated by libs that voted for Obamacare . Even they did not include any contraception mandate . Why ? Because they would not survive reelection if they put that into the law . The mandate is the result of a bureaucratic putsh backed by the emperor . The President has NO constituional authority to make law . How many times does he have to be judicially smacked down before he gets it ?Quote:
Congress will do SQUAT! They have done nothing about any of the SCOTUS rulings so in a vacuum, the president has no choice but to act.
He gets it, he doesn’t care.
Hobby Lobby Ruling Shows Deeper Flaw in US Health Care - The American InterestQuote:
As the United States becomes more and more culturally pluralistic we will see more disagreement in all areas of society — including over what the federal government deems “essential health benefits.” Here, as elsewhere, promoting decentralized and individualized decision-making can tamp down conflict and respect everyone’s freedom to live according to their principles. An employer-provided system can pit employers and employees against each other; a fully nationalized system can likewise ignite culture wars over taxpayer funding for this or that objectionable health care benefit.
BTW .. RFRA was passed in the Robert Byrd and Tom Foley 103rd Congress and was introduced into legislation by Chuck the schmuck Schumer. Bubba signed it into law.
Fear not lefties, apparently the emperor can "borrow the power" from Congress to fix things according to Turban Durbin.
I answered this already, but for the record, and simple majority vote to fill the board and judge vacancies makes it a moot argument. As for the buffer zone, the stupid judges should afford citizen the same buffer zone that they have around the Supreme Court building don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
They are the same freaking thing and to allow some and not others is a stupid objection. Hobby Lobby furnishes nothing, health care providers do, and while the newer options maybe a bit more expensive, they are tailored to give patients more options depending on what the doctors recommend after testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Religious hypocrisy based on ignorance. Like banning Bayer aspirin for Walmart Brand. The claim of abortions is as dumb and untrue as it gets. What's so STUPID is that contraceptives of all kinds actually prevent abortions, and treat a myriad of female health problems beside just birth control.
You guys aren't paying attention!
and that is based on a single study that Teva submitted to the FDA to change the labeling . Like it or not , the owners of Hobby Lobby have a religious belief that life begins at conception . The government contends that a pregnancy is “the period of time from implantation until delivery.”. So if a contraceptive is preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus then it is causing an abortion according to the owner's religious beliefs . You can say it is a disputed contention ,and even though there are many physicians and researchers who stand firm on the view that pregnancy begins at the moment of conception, in the end that is irrelevant because it's the deeply held religious beliefs of the owners that matter .Quote:
The claim of abortions is as dumb and untrue as it gets.
Alito said if the government has a "compelling interest " in making sure their employees have access then the government should pay for it.
SINGLE PAYER!! Medicare for all and screw the private insurance companies, and the religious JUNK SCIENCE crowd!!
PROBLEM SOLVED :D Move along,nothing else to see here!
No Tal, you're moving the goalposts. Hobby Lobby pays to prevent fertilization, get over it. EC is not the same thing and you know it. There would be no "emergency" if there was no fertilization.
This is what you haven't answered:
So let's put that to the test. A pharmacist says his religious beliefs won't allow him to dispense abortifacients. What now?Quote:
Tal: but I think a companies religious freedom stops at the religious freedom of the employees
There is a good article in "The Guardian" today titled "The Hobby Lobby ruling proves men of the law still can't get over "immoral" women having sex. That pretty much sums up the real intent of the ruling. Busybodies interfering with things that are none of their business and hiding behind so-called "religious liberty". The hypocrisy of right-wing nuts makes me really mad. Rush Limbaugh was married 3 times and had no children, so he either used some form of birth control, or was impotent or secretly gay which has been rumored. I'm pretty disappointed with Anthony Kennedy, he used to be the sensible, middle-of-the road justice, but lately he has been siding with the other four idiots. Antonin Scalia is a good example of why there should be mandatory retirement for Supreme Court judges. He has turned into the embarrassing uncle that you dread having over at Christmas. In Canada, Supreme Court judges must retire at 75.
Stopping fertilization is a better outcome than a killing a half formed baby. And that BC/EC does the same thing as a condom, or spermicide, it BLOCK fertilization in a more reliable way. That's just the science dude and really believing or a deeply held belief is a personal thing. There was a time that it was a belief that black people were inferior to white people and the earth was flat, so beliefs can change and evolve can't they?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Let the boss and the pharmacist work out their problems, its between them. No different than a worker in a right to work state who gets fired because the boss said so. Why is the pharmacist so special? It's the bosses business that he built and controls right? That's what you and Tom always say.
If she was smart and had a doctor who guided her through the process of BC, then their would be no emergency, but nothing is 100% effective. Isn't that up to the woman to decide? Oh I see, you have a right to make women abstinent. No you don't, its NONE of your business.Quote:
There would be no "emergency" if there was no fertilization.
I like what Earl said, and agree with the age limit for SCOTUS!!!
Dude, I'd be interested in this science that says preventing fertilization is the same thing as EC. I'm still interested in my religious rights for employees question. I know answering it puts you in a bind, you'd have to take both sides or otherwise contradict yourself.
even better..Quote:
SINGLE PAYER!! Medicare for all and screw the private insurance companies, and the religious JUNK SCIENCE crowd!!
PROBLEM SOLVED :D Move along,nothing else to see here!
a system in which individuals purchase health insurance within a private, competitive market would allow everyone to choose and fund only those benefits they want—and would bring down costs in the meantime. Instead of fighting each other over contraception coverage, we should spend time thinking how to make a system like that viable.
Tom reversionism will not solve the problem, you have just described the system you had and it didn't work, millions could not afford coverage and so changes were made and if what you have doesn't solve the problem then more change is needed and taking the private, for profit, insurers out of the equation might be the solution
I'm really revisionist then because I'd like to go back to the days when the patient made deals with the doctors . Trust me ;we'd all be better off .
have you actually ever tried to make a deal with a doctor? mine ignored me and sent me a bill
Doctors, nurses, and facilities. We need a LOT more, and throw in some home care professionals to boot.
The only difference I see is the timing, long term, versus short term. Study the science for yourself and let me know. Its still evolving. As far as employee/boss relationships, it can work if they both WANT it to. Both their fortunes are tied together.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
It's already happening. There are many physicians who do not process any insurance. Look for "Concierge Health Care" in your area.Quote:
I'd like to go back to the days when the patient made deals with the doctors .
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