Ask Me Help Desk - Minimum wage

No one likes a multi-faceted problem.
1. Education worries about math and science competition with the world and not about trades.
2. Too many young adults don't care about learning skills. They feel entitled.
2.a. Too many single parent households.
3. Huge corporations do get richer and richer, with their vast departments of accountants, lawyers, and lobbyists.
4. Social programs meant to 'help' end up creating more and more welfare mentality among too many.

Demanding 15/hr serves to perpetuate all all the other wrongs.
Having tax dollars subsidize low wage workers does the same thing.

One starter solution: raise the minimum to 9 (Robert Reich's calculated suggestion) or 10.10 as seems to be one favorite, and tell all workers with public benefits that they have 4 years to complete at least 1 year of a training program through the Education Connection.

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no one likes a multi-faceted problem.

Bingo >tried to make all caps<

Its a lot of work and many moving parts. But doing nothing is unacceptable.

Who cares about another astroturf demonstration meant to line the pockets of the ever shrinking unions and their bosses.

The ever shrinking unions, the ever shrinking middle class. Coincidence? You better care because your future earnings are tied to union success. Its simple, costs are rising and your paycheck ain't.

But you can get a part time job at Walmart. No union dues there either. How come you aren't moving up the ladder in your job like Tom is? You must not be busting your butt like those lazy burger flippers.

Who said anything about us not moving up? Not I. What I said was thanks to your idea of fairness YOU are making us poorer.

so speech should the poor starve or be without medical care? just because your idea of fairness is to accumulate

You obviously haven't read my comments either as that could not be further from the truth.

let's look at this multi-faceted problem

To deal with a multi-faceted problem you break it into each of it's facets and tackle each one individually

So problem number one; entry level jobs have a rate too low to be attractive and offer real income
problem number two; increase in rates might mean layoffs problem. number three; higher minimum means higher youth wage. problem number four; we don't want to pay anyone more money, no way

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, tom:
THIS is an EXCELLENT example of right wingers NOT understanding the market place..

First off, Micky D's IS as automated as it can be. What possibly makes you think they aren't? Your WRONGHEADED assumption, is that WHEN they come up with a NEW way to automate, they'll put it on the shelf because they'll have to fire a few employees...

??????

excon

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In 2011, Annie Lowrey wrote about the burgeoning tablet-as-waiter business. She focused on a startup firm called E La Carte, which makes a table tablet called Presto. “Each console goes for $100 per month. If a restaurant serves meals eight hours a day, seven days a week, it works out to 42 cents per hour per table — making the Presto cheaper than even the very cheapest waiter. Moreover, no manager needs to train it, replace it if it quits, or offer it sick days. And it doesn’t forget to take off the cheese, walk off for 20 minutes, or accidentally offend with small talk, either.”

Applebee’s is using the Presto. Are we really supposed to believe that the chain will keep thousands of redundant human staffers on the payroll forever?

People don’t go into business to create jobs; they go into business to make money. Labor is a cost. The more expensive labor is, the more attractive nonhuman replacements for labor become. The minimum wage makes labor more expensive. Obama knows this, which is why he so often demonizes ATM machine as job-killers

Get set for the rise of the machines | New York Post

you don't get it automation means no jobs, these low level jobs are important but it is always the low level jobs that get automated first, it is because they are a process that can be reduced to a few steps, if they are not taken by some idiot in India who doesn't know his a$$ from his apex they are automated.

This may be progress but it is wrong because people need meaningful work and if it is not there they become a statistic. No computer can yet do what I do because I am a reasoning being, my thought processes cannot be reduced to simple computer logic or a set of steps

When this rise of the machines gets here, I will be gone and so will my unique talents

People need work; meaningful work is something they have to work for on their own time, by acquiring skills or starting their own business.

We in the US knew for decades that manufacturing was leaving in droves, and we did NOTHING at any but in band-aid ways.

China said OOPS, we are doing all the manufacturing and none of the design, and started investing in some serious education. We think we are doing that, but we are lumping all kids together, trying to turn all of them into the best of the best, instead of guiding each one on a path right for his abilities. This doesn't have to be a railroad job, starting too young as people used to claim. It can start in high school. Learn for what jobs are out there on the large scale, not the elite ones. Nurture the elite ones too.

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Applebee's is using the Presto. Are we really supposed to believe that the chain will keep thousands of redundant human staffers on the payroll forever?

Having been through upgrading through automation you still need humans to fix the glitches and maybe they get away with reducing the number of humans, somebody has to bring the food to the table and clear the dishes. The job changes but sending a steak back still needs a human.

And you need a tech team.

@joy,

Did nothing as jobs left is an understatement, as it left a lot of people behind trying to catch up, but that's the free market, and it's a broken business model too expensive for the average worker. We are finding the needs of the young to have an entry level experience are overlapping with the needs of the older displaced worker with obligations and dependents.

Those entry level jobs have become jobs to compete for and not just young kids living with parents, and there are few choices since banks are tight on loaning money to new entrepreneurs.

And someone still has to chop the onions and saute them. And roast the lamb. And slice the beef. And add the sprig of parsley to the plate before the (human) waitress takes it to the customer.

I'm waiting for high schools (and even earlier) to wake up and start thinking seriously about vocational guidance of their students (not just college prep).

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And someone still has to chop the onions and saute them. And roast the lamb. And slice the beef. And add the sprig of parsley to the plate before the (human) waitress takes it to the customer.

I'm waiting for high schools (and even earlier) to wake up and start thinking seriously about vocational guidance of their students (not just college prep).

A White Castle VP came right out and said a doubling of the min wage will result in layoffs because the company would be forced to close down more than 200 franchises.
I agree with you about vocational ed. People trained in skilled trades command higher starting salaries ,and are more likely to open their own private business .
I love the outrage here . Obamacare forced many small businesses to reduce many of their staff to part timers and there doesn't seem to be a peep of outrage about the hardship those workers are facing .

Pushing for a higher minimum standard is not outrage, but sticking to a broken business model instead of fixing it is outrageous. Go ahead McDonald's and Walmart, start laying off half your workers because you lose a government subsidy.

I thought sucking at the government teat was against conservative principles? If corporations can't stay in business without government assistance haven't you said they should fail? Sure you have.

Bailouts anyone?

Your the one that favors a tax code loaded with all types of deductions and built in subsidies . I don't favor that ,you do.

Mine are for the people who get up early and do the less glamorous low paying jobs who don't have lobbyist, lawyers and accountants and off shore accounts and stick silver spoons in their kids mouth. Average people.

You know, the ones who got the trickle cut off.

you don't get it still, If having to pay a "minimum wage" is going to put someone out of business you have to ask how well were they doing anyway, perhaps they just have too many minimum wage employees and not enough peoplewho can think and organise to get more productivity so there can be less people paid more and the business make more through efficiency. I wonder why is it I have to keep correcting your thinking? Have you been brainwashed?

White Castle is a major privately held franchise that's been around since 1921 . Tell your tale to their VP Jamie Richard.

ah a 90 year old company is like a 90 year old man, ready for the grave. In a company like that fresh thinking comes slow and adaptation comes slow too. The business model may have worked way back when, but this is a different age. Seems you might need to employ a more up to date business model.

We had a company with an old adagea as a motto "while I live I grow" after a 130 years it stopped growing and it no longer exists

Hello again:

I've been in business for 40 years.. My costs have ALWAYS gone up and NEVER stopped going up.. Any businessman who says he can't stay in business because his costs are gonna go up, is either LYING or is a Republican.. Sometimes, BOTH.

excon

Yes it is hard to make money so you have to work smarter, that might mean doing with less staff or it might mean expanding sales with existing staff. Whatever you do you have to remove the slave mentality of expecting people to work for nothing so you can be rich. That is all the minimum wage is saying, work has a certain value and if you can't use the worker efficiently that is not the workers fault

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In a company like that fresh thinking comes slow and adaptation comes slow too.

And yet they've thrived in an environment with increased competition. White Castle also has their products in grocery stores using that innovation that you claim they are incapable of. The reason their products also thrive in grocery stores is that they've nurtured and developed multi-generational customer loyalty for their product . They must be doing something right .
So when their VP says that increasing their labor costs to the extent that a doubling of the min. wage might cause the closing of 200 of their franchises ,I tend to believe him . I know their business model . I don't know Ex's .

Yawn, its those hard workers that have made WC rich. McDonalds' too. Lets not pretend that serving customers is not the whole base of the wealth and reputation that's brought in the billions every year.

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And yet they've thrived in an environment with increased competition. White Castle also has their products in grocery stores using that innovation that you claim they are incapable of. The reason their products also thrive in grocery stores is that they've nurtured and developed multi-generational customer loyalty for their product . They must be doing something right .
So when their VP says that increasing their labor costs to the extent that a doubling of the min. wage might cause the closing of 200 of their franchises ,I tend to believe him . I know their business model . I don't know Ex's .

They have 400 stores and none of them are franchises they don't use that business model. Ok they expanded their product into supermarkets makes sense but the McDonalds business model has expanded to 32000 stores through franchising, the size of the two business is not comparable. Tom prices increase, it is the way things are. I don't know what an increase in wage would ad to the price of the product but it wouldn't be much, wages is not a large part of product cost. I have seen the multinational fast food outfits jack prices at least 25% and the queue of cars is still out the gate. I expect they have targeted different customers and the baby boomers are educated to eat at fast food joints so the market is ever expanding along with their waste lines. In short Tom stop the bleating. Those kids who work at the fast food joints buy the product too, increase their wages and they will buy more, but this isn't what it is about, it is about lifting the base for everybody

Hello again,

Not only is the minimum wage too HIGH, Rand Paul tells millions he’s doing them a FAVOR by cutting off unemployment benefits.

I dunno WHAT to say about that.

excon

Hello again, tom:

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So when their VP says that increasing their labor costs to the extent that a doubling of the min. wage might cause the closing of 200 of their franchises ,I tend to believe him . I know their business model . I don't know Ex's .

As I said above, ANY businessman who says he CAN'T compete because his costs are going up, is LYING or is a REPUBLICAN.

The fast food industry pays around 10% of the cost of a burger in labor. That means for every $1 that comes in, they pay $.10 CENTS in labor. If his labor costs DOUBLED, he'd have to charge another $.10 CENTS for a $1 burger to break EVEN. In rough terms, that means the the cost of a $5 burger would go up $.50 CENTS, if he wanted to break EVEN.

SOME business's out there DON'T have enough faith their product to believe that the public will pay 10% more. Maybe White Castle did a study about it...

But, they DIDN'T. I LOVE White Castle, and I'd pay a LOT of money to eat them.. I WON'T buy the frozen ones, though, because they're CRAP. I OFFERED to BUY a franchise.. I offered them a LOT of money. They said NO.

In addition, I wonder WHY nobody has responded to my argument that prices go UP all the time, and IF companies CAN'T sustain that, they go OUT of business.. But, White Castle has been around for a LONG LONG time.. Clearly, they've ABSORBED increases in their costs MANY, MANY times in the past, and they're STILL there.

Over to you, wingers..

excon

PS> My plan??? To produce the BEST product available. People will pay ANYTHING to get it. I charge MORE than ANYBODY, and have NEVER received resistance to my prices.

If you're WORRIED that the market WON'T buy your product if you raise prices, you need a BETTER product.

They are over 1 year without work, thus not counted in the unemployment stats. They get dropped from the workforce so the adm can lie to us about the unemployment rate .
Extend their benefits and put them back on the unemployed list so we can know the true extent of unemployment in the Obama-recovery .
Question ...
Will all these unemployed Americans' do the jobs Americans won't do' ?

Hello again, tom:

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Will all these unemployed Americans' do the jobs Americans won't do' ?

Apparently not. Is that cause they're not HUNGRY enough??

Question.. The crops wither on the vine because we've deported the workers. At the same time the poor are poorer than ever. Why won't they take those jobs? Have we not made them POOR enough? Do you think they would if we made our poor as poor as, say the Brazilian poor?

excon

apparently that is the only part of my comment you read . You missed this part :

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They are over 1 year without work, thus not counted in the unemployment stats. They get dropped from the workforce so the adm can lie to us about the unemployment rate .
Extend their benefits and put them back on the unemployed list so we can know the true extent of unemployment in the Obama-recovery .

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The fast food industry pays around 10% of the cost of a burger in labor. That means for every $1 that comes in, they pay $.10 CENTS in labor. If his labor costs DOUBLED, he'd have to charge another $.10 CENTS for a $1 burger to break EVEN. In rough terms, that means the the cost of a $5 burger would go up $.50 CENTS, if he wanted to break EVEN.

You keep throwing out numbers without any supporting data.

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What Are the Ranges?

Certain fast food restaurants can achieve labor cost as low as 25 percent, while table service restaurants are more likely to see labor in the 30 percent to 35 percent range. Food costs (including beverages) for the restaurant industry run typically from the 25 percent to 38 percent range, depending upon the style of restaurant and the mix of sales.

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According to the 2010 Restaurant Industry Operations Report compiled by the National Restaurant Association, restaurants whose average ticket runs $15 and under or $25 and over typically spend 33.7 percent of their gross sales revenue on labor. Restaurants whose average ticket totals between $15 and $25 typically spend 33.2 percent of gross sales on labor expenses. These numbers are close enough to indicate that labor costs are relatively consistent throughout the restaurant industry, regardless of the level of service that a establishment provides.

Care to recalculate?

Hello again, Steve:

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Care to recalculate?

Nahhh... I was IN the restaurant business for years.. The numbers I quoted were MY numbers. I can't help it if other guys weren't as good as me.

excon

All you have to do Tom to embarrass the prez, is vote yes for a change. Now tell that to the congress, your side of it. Or are you holding it hostage to repeal Obamacare?

Even supply side economics demands you trickle down something.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, Steve:
Nahhh... I was IN the restaurant business for years.. The numbers I quoted were MY numbers. I can't help it if other guys weren't as good as me.

excon

In other words you have no data to back up your claim, you're just blowing smoke.

Even your numbers Speech even with overhead shows a tidy double digit profit, reinvested I hope, in equipment and the people who actually do the work to make those profits. I know the job they do you can train a monkey to do, and pay him peanuts. Go ahead, let me know how that works for you.

Um, that was JUST labor costs. The food, building, furniture, insurance, etc. aren't free.

Hello again, Steve:

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you're just blowing smoke.

Nahhh... This is the Cameo. It was my joint in Steamboat Springs. It was a LONG time ago, and I didn't keep my books to show you. Take my word for it, I made a LOT of money. And my labor costs were 10%. That COULD be because I was the only high priced help in the kitchen.

And, I only blow a certain kind of smoke.

excon

So you paid your people nothing. Meanwhile, I need facts, I need data, I'm a science kinda guy.

Hello again, Steve:

Nahh.. I made the money on the OTHER end. So MY labor wasn't included in the labor costs. Since I had NO high priced chef or restaurant manager, the entire 10% went to my employees. As I've said before, I paid my help MORE than anybody else did.

I don't think you know how PROFITABLE a successful restaurant IS. How many restaurants do you know where they LINE up before you open and STAY lined up till you close. It's a LICENSE to print money. I think you got a B-B-Que joint down there that does that.

excon

No BBQ joint here that popular but there's a tourist trap called the Big Texan Steak Ranch. Otherwise, I'm just reporting the SUPPORTED facts. I don't make policy decisions on hearsay.