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If you can't argue on the facts and stay on topic then why waste my time? This is not about the size of government, banks or controlling a woman's uterus (which is a really annoying, tiresome straw man). What about the children born alive, what about the women the regulators DELIBERATELY turned their backs on?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Now you want regulation enforced, but its to late for the ones who died in West, Tx. Or the ones who die because criminals get guns as easy crazy people. Sorry to waste your time but you fail to see a connection with all the problems we have that need solving.
You hollering strawman all the time doesn't cut it.
Crazy people shouldn't be running loose... they should be in Assylums before they can hurt others.
Even pro choice people are outraged and disgusted by this Gosnall fellow and what he did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
The notion that we want to control a woman's uterus IS a straw man so I will call it what it is. Again, this is not about West, TX, banks, the size of government, gun control. What about the children born alive, what about the women the regulators DELIBERATELY turned their backs on?
These horrors described in this thred are not the exception .
Here is the wording by Justice Kennedy in the majority opinion of Gonzales v Carhart (where the court upheld the consitutionality of late term abortions
)Keep in mind ;what he describes here is 2nd trimester and not late term.
FindLaw | Cases and CodesQuote:
Of the remaining abortions that take place each year, most occur in the second trimester. The surgical procedure referred to as "dilation and evacuation" or "D&E" is the usual abortion method in this trimester. Planned Parenthood, 320 F. Supp. 2d, at 960-961. Although individual techniques for performing D&E differ, the general steps are the same.
A doctor must first dilate the cervix at least to the extent needed to insert surgical instruments into the uterus and to maneuver them to evacuate the fetus. Nat. Abortion Federation, supra, at 465; App. In No. 05-1382, at 61. The steps taken to cause dilation differ by physician and gestational age of the fetus. See, e.g. Carhart, 331 F. Supp. 2d, at 852, 856, 859, 862-865, 868, 870, 873-874, 876-877, 880, 883, 886. A doctor often begins the dilation process by inserting osmotic dilators, such as laminaria (sticks of seaweed), into the cervix. The dilators can be used in combination with drugs, such as misoprostol, that increase dilation. The resulting amount of dilation is not uniform, and a doctor does not know in advance how an individual patient will respond. In general the longer dilators remain in the cervix, the more it will dilate. Yet the length of time doctors employ osmotic dilators varies. Some may keep dilators in the cervix for two days, while others use dilators for a day or less. Nat. Abortion Federation, supra, at 464-465; Planned Parenthood, supra, at 961.
After sufficient dilation the surgical operation can commence. The woman is placed under general anesthesia or conscious sedation. The doctor, often guided by ultrasound, inserts grasping forceps through the woman's cervix and into the uterus to grab the fetus. The doctor grips a fetal part with the forceps and pulls it back through the cervix and vagina, continuing to pull even after meeting resistance from the cervix. The friction causes the fetus to tear apart. For example, a leg might be ripped off the fetus as it is pulled through the cervix and out of the woman. The process of evacuating the fetus piece by piece continues until it has been completely removed. A doctor may make 10 to 15 passes with the forceps to evacuate the fetus in its entirety, though sometimes removal is completed with fewer passes. Once the fetus has been evacuated, the placenta and any remaining fetal material are suctioned or scraped out of the uterus. The doctor examines the different parts to ensure the entire fetal body has been removed. See, e.g. Nat. Abortion Federation, supra, at 465; Planned Parenthood, supra, at 962.
Some doctors, especially later in the second trimester, may kill the fetus a day or two before performing the surgical evacuation. They inject digoxin or potassium chloride into the fetus, the umbilical cord, or the amniotic fluid. Fetal demise may cause contractions and make greater dilation possible. Once dead, moreover, the fetus' body will soften, and its removal will be easier. Other doctors refrain from injecting chemical agents, believing it adds risk with little or no medical benefit. Carhart, supra, at 907-912; Nat. Abortion Federation, supra, at 474-475.
The abortion procedure that was the impetus for the numerous bans on "partial-birth abortion," including the Act, is a variation of this standard D&E. See M. Haskell, Dilation and Extraction for Late Second Trimester Abortion (1992), 1 Appellant's App. In No. 04-3379 (CA8), p. 109 (hereinafter Dilation and Extraction). The medical community has not reached unanimity on the appropriate name for this D&E variation. It has been referred to as "intact D&E," "dilation and extraction" (D&X), and "intact D&X." Nat. Abortion Federation, supra, at 440, n. 2; see also F. Cunningham et al. Williams Obstetrics 243 (22d ed. 2005) (identifying the procedure as D&X); Danforth's Obstetrics and Gynecology 567 (J. Scott, R. Gibbs, B. Karlan, & A. Haney eds. 9th ed. 2003) (identifying the procedure as intact D&X); M. Paul, E. Lichtenberg, L. Borgatta, D. Grimes, & P. Stubblefield, A Clinician's Guide to Medical and Surgical Abortion 136 (1999) (identifying the procedure as intact D&E). For discussion purposes this D&E variation will be referred to as intact D&E. The main difference between the two procedures is that in intact D&E a doctor extracts the fetus intact or largely intact with only a few passes. There are no comprehensive statistics indicating what percentage of all D&Es are performed in this manner.
Intact D&E, like regular D&E, begins with dilation of the cervix. Sufficient dilation is essential for the procedure. To achieve intact extraction some doctors thus may attempt to dilate the cervix to a greater degree. This approach has been called "serial" dilation. Carhart, supra, at 856, 870, 873; Planned Parenthood, supra, at 965. Doctors who attempt at the outset to perform intact D&E may dilate for two full days or use up to 25 osmotic dilators. See, e.g. Dilation and Extraction 110; Carhart, supra, at 865, 868, 876, 886.
In an intact D&E procedure the doctor extracts the fetus in a way conducive to pulling out its entire body, instead of ripping it apart. One doctor, for example, testified:
"If I know I have good dilation and I reach in and the fetus starts to come out and I think I can accomplish it, the abortion with an intact delivery, then I use my forceps a little bit differently. I don't close them quite so much, and I just gently draw the tissue out attempting to have an intact delivery, if possible." App. In No. 05-1382, at 74.
Rotating the fetus as it is being pulled decreases the odds of dismemberment. Carhart, supra, at 868-869; App. In No. 05-380, pp. 40-41; 5 Appellant's App. In No. 04-3379 (CA8), p. 1469. A doctor also "may use forceps to grasp a fetal part, pull it down, and re-grasp the fetus at a higher level--sometimes using both his hand and a forceps--to exert traction to retrieve the fetus intact until the head is lodged in the [cervix]." Carhart, 331 F. Supp. 2d, at 886-887.
Intact D&E gained public notoriety when, in 1992, Dr. Martin Haskell gave a presentation describing his method of performing the operation. Dilation and Extraction 110-111. In the usual intact D&E the fetus' head lodges in the cervix, and dilation is insufficient to allow it to pass. See, e.g. ibid.; App. In No. 05-380, at 577; App. In No. 05-1382, at 74, 282. Haskell explained the next step as
follows:
" 'At this point, the right-handed surgeon slides the fingers of the left [hand] along the back of the fetus and "hooks" the shoulders of the fetus with the index and ring fingers (palm down).
" 'While maintaining this tension, lifting the cervix and applying traction to the shoulders with the fingers of the left hand, the surgeon takes a pair of blunt curved Metzenbaum scissors in the right hand. He carefully advances the tip, curved down, along the spine and under his middle finger until he feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his middle finger.
" '[T]he surgeon then forces the scissors into the base of the skull or into the foramen magnum. Having safely entered the skull, he spreads the scissors to enlarge the opening.
" 'The surgeon removes the scissors and introduces a suction catheter into this hole and evacuates the skull contents. With the catheter still in place, he applies traction to the fetus, removing it completely from the patient.' " H. R. Rep. No. 108-58, p. 3 (2003).
This is an abortion doctor's clinical description. Here is another description from a nurse who witnessed the same method performed on a 26-week fetus and who testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee:
" 'Dr. Haskell went in with forceps and grabbed the baby's legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby's body and the arms--everything but the head. The doctor kept the head right inside the uterus... .
" 'The baby's little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his little feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors in the back of his head, and the baby's arms jerked out, like a startle reaction, like a flinch, like a baby does when he thinks he is going to fall.
" 'The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening, and sucked the baby's brains out. Now the baby went completely limp... .
" 'He cut the umbilical cord and delivered the placenta. He threw the baby in a pan, along with the placenta and the instruments he had just used.' " Ibid.
Dr. Haskell's approach is not the only method of killing the fetus once its head lodges in the cervix, and "the process has evolved" since his presentation. Planned Parenthood, 320 F. Supp. 2d, at 965. Another doctor, for example, squeezes the skull after it has been pierced "so that enough brain tissue exudes to allow the head to pass through." App. In No. 05-380, at 41; see also Carhart, supra, at 866-867, 874. Still other physicians reach into the cervix with their forceps and crush the fetus' skull. Carhart, supra, at 858, 881. Others continue to pull the fetus out of the woman until it disarticulates at the neck, in effect decapitating it. These doctors then grasp the head with forceps, crush it, and remove it. Id. at 864, 878; see also Planned Parenthood, supra, at 965.
Some doctors performing an intact D&E attempt to remove the fetus without collapsing the skull. See Carhart, supra, at 866, 869. Yet one doctor would not allow delivery of a live fetus younger than 24 weeks because "the objective of [his] procedure is to perform an abortion," not a birth. App. In No. 05-1382, at 408-409. The doctor thus answered in the affirmative when asked whether he would "hold the fetus' head on the internal side of the [cervix] in order to collapse the skull" and kill the fetus before it is born. Id. at 409; see also Carhart, supra, at 862, 878. Another doctor testified he crushes a fetus' skull not only to reduce its size but also to ensure the fetus is dead before it is removed. For the staff to have to deal with a fetus that has "some viability to it, some movement of limbs," according to this doctor, "[is] always a difficult situation." App. In No. 05-380, at 94; see Carhart, supra, at 858.
Sen. Obama spoke at a Planned Parenthood event after the decision and decried the decision calling it a “concerted effort to steadily roll back” access to abortion".
If refusing to participate in a gay wedding is barbaric what do you call this?
You should be all for education, and contraceptives to prevent abortions. But you aren't.
Except for this inconvenient factQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
How abortion has changed AmericaQuote:
As our reverence for life has diminished, so has our reverence for the institutions that surround and support it.
Scholars at the Brookings Institution observed in 1996 that Roe v. Wade contributed to the collapse of marriage and the dramatic increase in out-of-wedlock births. The idea that children were part of a sacred institution called marriage started disappearing.
The sense of honor, the sense of shame disappears in this culture of self.
In 1965, seven years before Roe v. Wade, less then 10 percent of American babies were born to unwed mothers – 24 percent to unwed black women and 3.1percent to unwed white women. As of 2010, this was up to 41 percent of our babies born to unwed mothers – 73 percent among black women and 29 percent among white women.
Sixty percent of our out-of-wedlock births are to women in their 20s.
Proper education, and contraceptives would help the out of wedlock rate too, but you still ain't for it huh?
They aren't going to get that in the public schools here or the Colleges... not enough time left after the indocrintation and Political correctness to actually teach things they need for life.
I'm all for education, but not the kind your side wants to give them.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
yeah because all the sex ed stuff has worked so well til nowQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
What's your solution?Quote:
yeah because all the sex ed stuff has worked so well until now
You first.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Kirsten Powers is on the job still. Was Gosnell's house of horrors an aberration? She doesn't think so as evidence continues to mount that his clinic is far from alone and regulators look the other way when they should be protecting women and children and enforcing the law.
There's your war on women.Quote:
Quote:
Closing arguments leave questions about clinics elsewhere in America.
"If I talk, maybe people will make sure it won't happen again."
That's what 20-year-old Desiree Hawkins told me last week as she recounted the horror of visiting abortion doctor Kermit Gosnell in December 2009. The jury in Gosnell's trial for the alleged murders of multiple babies and one woman heard closing arguments Monday afternoon, but they won't hear from Hawkins.
Hawkins was forced to relive the nightmare of Gosnell's house of horrors when she was contacted by a Drug Enforcement Administration agent this year. The agent told her that one of the severed feet found in jars at the clinic belonged to her aborted baby. She was set to testify as a rebuttal witness against Gosnell until he chose to not take the stand.
When she was 16, Hawkins sought an abortion at a National Abortion Federation-certified abortion clinic, Hagerstown (Md.) Reproductive Health Services. The clinic told her she was 19 weeks pregnant and referred her to Gosnell. When she recently retrieved her file in anticipation of testifying, she was shocked that her sonogram showed she had in fact been at 21 weeks, which meant she would have been 23 weeks pregnant by the time Gosnell performed the abortion. "I was so overwhelmed and hurt," said Hawkins. "If I had known I was 23 weeks, I would have (chosen) adoption."
She also would have avoided the trauma visited upon her by Gosnell. Hawkins described the licensed medical professional as laughing at her during the procedure as she cried and begged him to stop because of the pain. "Stop being a baby," he said.
Hawkins experienced betrayal anew when she read the grand jury report replete with testimony of government officials admitting they ignored repeated complaints about Gosnell because they didn't want to limit access to abortion.
'People die'
Said Hawkins, "What really got me was when the (health department official) just said, 'People die.' They just decided to look the other way." She is passionate that "someone needs to make sure all states' departments of health ... are preventing this from happening."
Abortion rights advocates have asserted that Gosnell was an "extreme outlier" and opposed legislation to increase regulation of Pennsylvania abortion clinics as they have in other states. But how could they possibly know that this is an aberration?
Last week, Ohio officials shut down an abortion clinic after inspectors found that a medical assistant administered narcotics to five patients, that narcotics and powerful sedatives weren't properly accounted for, that pharmacy licenses had expired and that four staff members hadn't been screened for a communicable disease.
This month, a Delaware TV station reported that two Planned Parenthood nurses resigned in protest over conditions at a clinic there. One nurse, Jayne Mitchell-Werbrich, said, "It was just unsafe. I couldn't tell you how ridiculously unsafe it was."
Clinic closure drumbeat
Last month, Maryland officials shut down three abortion clinics, two for failings in their equipment and training to deal with life-threatening complications.
Last year, an Associated Press investigation found that Illinois hadn't inspected some abortion clinics for 10 to 15 years. After state health officials reinvigorated their clinic inspections in the wake of Gosnell, inspectors closed two clinics, including one fined for "failure to perform CPR on a patient who died after a procedure," according to AP.
Such problems wouldn't be a shock to Pennsylvania state Rep. Margo Davidson, the only member of the Democratic black caucus to vote for the abortion-regulation bill passed there. She told me, "We don't know how many (Gosnells) there are. I'm not trying to overturn Roe v. Wade, but if a woman makes this difficult choice, she should at least be afforded the highest level of care." She said the choice community knew what was going on and did nothing.
Indeed, the grand jury found that the National Abortion Federation inspected Gosnell's clinic, refused to certify him, but didn't tell anyone. Pennsylvania Planned Parenthood representative Dayle Steinberg has admitted that its officials knew the clinic was unsafe after women complained. What did they do? "We would always encourage them to report it to the Department of Health."
Davidson concluded that for the choice community, "the institution was more important than the individual lives." Davidson knows firsthand what can happen when people choose to look the other way: Her 22-year-old cousin died after an abortion at Gosnell's clinic.
Hello again, Steve:
It just isn't working... One MONSTER does NOT reflect what's actually happening on the ground... What if I posted about a MONSTER who killed somebody with a gun... Wouldn't you be telling me that ONE monster does not reflect what's happening on the ground??
You WOULD.
If you want something to be OUTRAGED about, be OUTRAGED that YOUR country is imprisoning people WITHOUT charging them with ANYTHING... And, because the prisoners take exception to that, they've decided to STARVE themselves. Then YOUR government sticks them in chairs, chains their hands and legs, and FORCES a tube down their throat.
If THAT doesn't OUTRAGE you, and it won't, you'll understand why what outrages you, DOESN'T outrage me..
Next.
excon
Your president is calling in drones and killing them... they would be happy if they were rotting in jail without being charged.
Math is hard isn't it? I counted four more examples in that one column alone, but thanks at least for demonstrating you aren't really concerned about any war on women.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Hello again, smoothy:
This, along with MOST things you post, come right out of your a$$.Quote:
they would be happy if they were rotting in jail without being charged.
Excon
Hello again, Steve:
I'm NOT reading the gory details you post. It SICKENS me. That you've found 4 OTHER monsters, does NOT make a trend.
Next.
excon
I learned that from you. You are after all one of the masters.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
It must really pi$$ you off then that it's a female liberal that's doing all the legwork here. Or is Powers just showing her true colors?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I have always been for strict clear rules of acceptable behavior for everybody, even the rich guys the right allows to rob us.
What about the rich guys the left allows to rob us? You can't get a better example of crony capitalism than Zero himself, but this is about the horrors being perpetrated against women and children and regulatory failure. I agree with the PA Dem that said, "the institution was more important than the individual lives." That's twice I've agreed with libs/dems today.
YOU mean like Mr. I-pay-18.4%-tax Obama... George Soros and the Hollywood syndicate?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I assume you apply that to the victims of regulatory failure in West, TX?Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
That would be your assumption . I haven't read anything yet that places a cause for the fire.
OSHA hadn't been there for 20 years. If they were supposed to then they dropped the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
DOT was there in 2011 which sounds about right, and found 2 violations. Some nurse tanks were missing placards and they needed a security plan. Both were corrected and they were fined $5250.00.
Unless you know of something else I can't comment other than they had no OSHA safety inspection but the agency that governs them said their faults were corrected after a modest fine.
Your turn.
History of Safety Violations at Texas Fertilizer Plant | Care2 Causes
Quote:
The EPA also expressed concerns about the West Fertilizer Company's Risk-Management Program (RMP), required for such facilities. These concerns included worries that the plan was outdated, and that it had no documentation regarding what it intended to do in order to address safety concerns. A new plan was filed five years later to get in compliance. Amazingly, the plant claimed that it didn't have any explosive or flammable materials on site, and didn't list fire among potential safety risks in the workplace.
Glad to get you started.Quote:
Think this is bad? Ramit Plushnick-Masti and Jack Gillum, reporting for the AP, note that: “There were no sprinklers. No firewalls. No water deluge systems.” Without such basic fire suppression systems, once the plant started to go, it was almost unstoppable, and the fire spread quickly through the facility without any walls to keep it in check. This made the accident even more devastating than it could have been, and endangered the lives of first responders who arrived on scene to help victims.
The only relevant inspections to the blast would be those concerning workplace safety, which is OSHA and DOT. DOT, which governs hazardous materials was satisfied after their last inspection. Fire protection is within the purview of the authority having jurisdiction, whoever that may be in West, TX. I don't know what EPA fines have to do with the explosion, but feel free to count me as saying there was a failure somewhere, most likely with the plant owners and management more than anything. It sounds to me like they weren't as thorough in protecting workers and the community as they should have been and DOT and OSHA were their usual selves..
Again, your turn.
And yet another "exception" .
Investigation #3: Arizona
Hello again, tom:
I haven't been keeping up, but it looks like you're blaming the regulators for not regulating HARD enough (which is a switch). It also looks like you're giving the owners a pass. Do I have that right?
excon
Giving the owners a pass ? Hardly . No I don't think this is about lack of regulation . I think this is the industry as it really is... not that much different than the back alley coat hanger approach. They just have nicer offices.
No I think it's the law that would allow this that if horribly flawed.
Ex, you need to look back through this thread and see how many players KNEW about Gosnell but looked the other way. There's lots of blame to go around but no one wants to take responsibility and the rest are making excuses and offering pathetic "solutions" like needing MORE access to abortion for poor women so they can be victimized, too.
Open your eyes, the war on women you b*tched about for the last year is being exposed right in front of your face. Are you going to look the other way, too?
Did you know that as one Kermit Gosnell was facing murder charges for his house of horrors that the Sundance Film Festival was honoring four late-term abortionists in the film After Tiller? All of these "heroes" were taught by the slain abortionist, including one Leroy Carhart, the "butcher of Germantown."
As he was being honored, Carhart was "performing a third-trimester on a 29-year-old woman who was pronounced dead in a Germantown, Maryland hospital on February 7."
Carhart was also implicated in the death of another woman at a Tiller clinic in 2005, be sure and read about that. The good "Dr" Carhart installed an incinerator at his own Kansas clinic to deal with all those late term babies he slaughtered. This only after a journalist took a picture of a dog eating a baby's corpse at the public incinerator where he was disposing of their bodies.Quote:
.. in 2009 several of Carhart's employees filed affidavits with the Nebraska State Attorney General's office with details on Carhart's practices. The attorney general and the Nebraska Department of health launched investigations into testimony "...of Carhart's unlicensed workers illegally performing medical tasks, illegal post-viability abortions, drug violations, financial malfeasance," and that there was often "dried blood on medical instruments." The testimony also indicated that Carhart "had poor hygiene and rarely washed his hands between patients."
I can't wait for After Tiller to be released so I can see all about these "healthcare" "heroes."
http://www.investors.com/image/2RAMc...l-IBD-.jpg.cms
Yeah, Gosnell was just an outlier and the regulators are on the job, except he isn't and they aren't. Michigan, the next state to fail to protect women as with Pennsylvania, Delaware, NY, Virginia, Maryland...
Mentor clears doc in abortion complaint | WOOD TV8
Hello again,
Maybe, in an atmosphere of abortion on demand, Gosnell would have been found out earlier... But, when the right wing is CLOSING abortion clinics as fast as they can, I can see the left wing supporting doctors who remain and are willing to fight... So much so, that they don't really look INTO the practices of those who remain...
I really don't know. But, if you're suggesting, and you are, that lefties KNEW he was a butcher and STILL supported him, I unambiguously, reject it.
excon
No, making abortion more available is not the answer. If the government that can't fix potholes can't watch over the clinics open now you can't expect them watch more.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
The only way you can reject the fact that these butchers were known and allowed to continue is to close your eyes and plug your ears. I have documented it throughout this thread, but you remain in denial about the ACTUAL war on women being waged under your nose.
Its you who have denied women safe choices, so what's left? That right NO choice. That's what you wanted in the first place even though choice is a constitutionally protected right.
So much for your love of the constitution, and its obvious you think your rights are more important than the rights of others, especially women.
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