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Originally Posted by talaniman

Coalitions and compromise takes time, to work thru checks and balances and all that money.

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Indeed, You are right, no one has the perfect system, some systems work well and progess is achieved. Some do not and produce dysfunctional solutions. We think that a government should get on with doing what a government is elected to do and so when there is a minority in charge of the Senate, we do not let that get in the way of government.

We have some interesting debates going on at the moment in which it appears compromise might not be possible. They are the Carbon Tax and offshore processing of Refugee Applicants (otherwise known as the Malaysia solution). These things have become emotive because we have a government which was not elected in its own right but is held in place by a "coalition" of some most unlikely bedfellows. Not unlike your own, this government controls the Senate, but only with the goodwill of others.

What happens Tal is that unpopular ideas are sometimes tested in a smaller setting before moving on.

Local and regional attitudes are really deep in the house right now, and conservatives have stifled any compromising for now, but we do have another election and hopefully this will yield a higher turnout, which would favor moderates and progressives.

Heck they have a computer for the Financial sector, wish we could replace the congress with one. Our debates are a joke in the primary as everyone is trying to get to the political right, where the conservatives and extremely conservatives are. They hate progress, and long for the good old days and NO government, until a flood or something comes through. There numbers though are sizable 30/40%, so they can't be ignored, nor should they. They slow the process down though, and maybe that's not a completely bad thing, but some accept change quicker than others. There in lies the rub, and where we lose speed, and flexibility of government.

Heck, had we raised taxes in 2008, when this mess started, we could have had enough growth to avoid another financial meltdown, and been much further down the road of recovery, despite what the rest of the world was doing.

But as we see, some would just as soon shut the government down, than work on consensus.

Consensus, what is the opposite to that, nonsense?

As a guide the opposite to progress is congress

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conservatives have stifled any compromising

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Bs... the bill has been talking about is stalled in the Senate (controlled by the Dems ) .Majority leader Reid says he has more important things on his agenda.

You want consensus ? Stop the class warfare of the President . You want to change taxes ? Then overhaul the tax code for all Americans instead of targeting the few .

Exactly... to the Democrats "compromise" is code for do what we want, how we want, when we want, and don't disagree in any way, shape or form. They have failed to grasp that they lost the last election due to among many other things... telling the Republicans to " sit in the back of the bus and be quiet". As Obama said publicly.

Obamacare is a good example of Democrat "compromise". Done behind closed doors where Republicans weren't even allowed to be present or propose any amendments, or to even have a proper vote on.

A lot like how things happen in dictatorships around the world.

I get your feelings but as usually you have NO facts. Republicans had more than a year to contribute both to debate, and legislation. Indeed many amendments, and ideas, were incorporated, yet they backed away as they always have the last 3 years when it comes to actually passing something.

Even after taking some power, which not only was not a mandate, but regional, in the last election, they have failed to enact any kind of job solutions, but have attacked abortion and voting laws, while states cut teachers and police, as villains, and let bridges and roads fall apart.

But when you do NOTHING to help build, its easy to jump on the "enemy", the one you hate, and blame him for everything bad in the world, while relieving yourself of responsibility for FAILURE, and Ineptness.

So while you point the finger at Mr. Obama, remember you are pointing the other 3 at YOURSELF. Make sure you take some blame for the mess, and if you can't help clean it up, then get out of the way while the cleaning crew does its job.

Lets make it official, I blame YOU as much as I blame the government for this world class mess. So if you want a debate, brings some FACTS!!

We had a year to contribute what? They refused a vote on anything the republicans propsed... when we got enough democrats they resorted to questionable tactics of putting it through without a vote, after havign drafted it behind closed doors... and even in violation of Obamas "transparency rules" by not letting anyone have a chance to even read it.

If the Supreme court doesn't say its unconstitutional, when a Republican gets voted in and we take over the Senate in 2012 we will repeal it in its entirety.

And even if we don't... we will defund it preventing it from ever taking full effect.

Perhaps after its gone the left will grasp the concept of "Cooperation" doesn't mean ramming something down everyone's throats that few actually even want.

And even better... we repeal it using the very same tactics and methods they used to ram it through without a proper vote.

Heck... if the rules allowed THEM to do it... they can't say a thing when we undo it the very same way.

Slate examines the GOP amendments to a Senate health care bill. - Slate Magazine

I had to include this one just for you Smoothy,

How about them republican amendments to Obama's health care bill? American Taliban WHITE NOISE INSANITY

And here are yet more republican amendments in the bill that are now the LAW.

Republican Ideas Included in the President's Proposal | The White House

So much for factless rants based on FEELINGS, and not facts. Just curious, what are the basis for your FACTS? What sources do you base them on?

I go along with tax reform, but at least they will go back to the way it was in January of next year, which is just as cool with me.

You get to vote next year too, just as I do. Until then the debate continues, and for the record, I stand by my comments on flexibility, and shared prosperity in good times, and shared responsibility in urgent times. I just don't think its fair for the ones that caused this mess to be made whole, and the ones that made them whole again to be left holding the bag.

Yeah... pure liberal propaganda. When did this proper vote take place after all? Right, it didn't...

When you have to wait years to get a hearing aid like in England... or have to wait 6-9 months for cancer surgery in Canada... I bet they are going to be real happy with socialized health care. But then the Elite won't have it will they?

If it was so damned good, why did Congress opt out of it... and why did Obama give so many wavers for political payback. You'd think ALL liberals would be flocking to it if it was even 1% of what they claim it is... after all, FREE, nobody has yet figured out where all of these FREE doctors are going to come from, or where all of these FREE machines are going to come from or where all these FREE medications are coming from? After all, its FREE isn't it? I suppose all the liberals are going to volunteer to do all those jobs for FREE since they love that system so much.

Maybe Hollywood will start making movies for FREE too so all the poor can see movies again, and all the stars will work for FREE, and so will all the Sports stars and teams too.

Or maybe they can just all go to CUBA, where Democrats are trying to model the Healthcare system after as well as the political system.

Maybe all the Democrats will suddenly decide to serve for FREE and decline any salaries since they think everyone else should work for FREE.

When the economy finishes its collapse... and nobody can get real healthcare much less jobs... they will try to blame it on the evil rich who refuse to do ALL the work and pay ALL the bills. Or like a broken record... blame it on Bush.

I've been inside European Hospitals too many times over the last 25 years, I've seen too many people in them as patients, I've seen too many people die in them... people I knew personally.

I've been in American hospitals too, twice as a patient for surgery.

European Health care and hospitals scare the hell out of me.

I feel the same about American hospitals, and have more than a few horror stories of my own.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

If the Supreme court doesn't say its unconstitutional, when a Republican gets voted in and we take over the Senate in 2012 we will repeal it in its entirety.

And even if we don't....we will defund it preventing it from ever taking full effect.

Perhaps after its gone the left will grasp the concept of "Cooperation" doesn't mean ramming something down everyones throats that few actually even want.

And even better...we repeal it using the very same tactics and methods they used to ram it through without a proper vote.

Heck...if the rules allowed THEM to do it....they can't say a thing when we undo it the very same way.

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Sounds to me like the right wants to save the future by going back to the past while the left wants to move to the future without considering the past.

Also sounds like a recipe for becoming a political dinosaur.

Tut

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Also sounds like a recipe for becoming a political dinosaur

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The left ? Absolutely... we are seeing it happening in Greece now ;and it will ripple throughout the states that think they can hold power by distributing largess like bread and circuses to retain power. It has been a recipe for failure in the past ,and so it is today.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

the left ? absolutely ... we are seeing it happening in Greece now ;and it will ripple throughout the states that think they can hold power by distributing largess like bread and circuses to retain power. It has been a recipe for failure in the past ,and so it is today.

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Hi Tom,

Yes, but I was thinking more in terms of two dinosaurs.

Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Sounds to me like the right wants to save the future by going back to the past while the left wants to move to the future without considering the past.

Also sounds like a recipe for becoming a political dinosaur.

Tut

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Well the real difference is there is no reason to totally abandon a system that works extremely well for one that works as well nowhere else.

Some people would take anything just because its "FREE" to them rather than pay for something that is far superiour.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I feel the same about American hospitals, and have more than a few horror stories of my own.

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Unless you have spent YEARS living somewhere that actually has socialized medicine to compare it to... then all you are doing is blindly accepting something as fact.

I have had the last 25 years to compare European Socialized medicine to the far superiour American system, first hand, with my own eyes.

As I've said before... I have legal residency and work status in the EU. I could hop a flight tomorrow and start working the following day there legally anyplace I want. I've had that status the last 20 years. The 5 years prior to that I was a resident and a military ID card holder but only had work status on a US Militiary base.

Its also sad that most of the people trying to ram that down our throats have never been out of the country at all, and most of the rest haven't been more than tourists. I've actually been a long term resident, I've been through emergency rooms over there, I've been on Ambulances over there... I've been to doctors over there.

99.9% of those who want it, only want something free someone else will have to pay for, and take the word of people who have an agenda to push. The same people that generally know nothing about the real system and have this fictional Utopian view of a system that exists noplace in the world as they imagine it because it doesn't work.

Besides... what most people THINK are free and fully covered under European socialized health care, aren't.

Go to a specialist, you pay out of pocket, prescriptions... out of pocket, go to an optician get mamograms etc... you pay out of pocket. Dentists, out of pocket, eye doctor and glasses... out of pocket.

Go to a private doctor or Private hospital (yes they do have them) you pay out of pocket.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Well the real difference is there is no reason to totally abandon a system that works extremely well for one that works as well nowhere else.

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Hi Smoothy,

Could you run that by me again please.

Tut

Then keep what you have and leave everyone else alone.

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Smoothy,

Could you run that by me again please.

Tut

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The system we have now works very well... why change to a system that works poorly every place else in comparison.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Then keep what you have and leave everyone else alone.

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Who and what is that referring to? The lefties want to take a good healthcare system off everyone BUT congress and their Union Supporters (remember all those wavers)... and follishly believe the Obama LIE that you can keep what you have... when its all designed to take that away from everyone... Except of Course CONGRESS and the WHITEHOUSE...

Who by the very act of exempting themselves from it is proof positive what a steaming load of manure it really is. Or they would have it themselves.

So who are you votiing for in the election, Santorum, Hmmm probably Michelle Bachmann! Bet this is hard choice for you since there are so many far righties to choose from.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

So who are you votiing for in the election, Santorum, Hmmm probably Michelle Bachmann! Bet this is hard choice for you since there are so many far righties to choose from.

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ANYONE but OBAMA would be a HUGE improvement.

Obama has accomplished the impossible... Jimmy Carter is no longer the worst president in our lifetime.

So you don't want to admit Bachmann is your choice huh? Or do you mourn that Christie just said NO?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

So you don't want to admit Bachmann is your choice huh?? Or do you mourn that Christie just said NO?

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I honestly don't have a preference WHICH Republican gets the nomination at this point... any of them will be a huge improvement over Obama.

I disagree strongly, but you already knew that.

Well... there are a few people that still believe the economy is doing great. I don't know by what definition they use, or how they quantify it... or exactly WHERE in the country that's its doing great.


But then, there are people that believe in Alien abductions, and would argue just as passionately they experienced one if not more.

Take the money out of politics on every level, and they become servants, ours, the peoples, instead of some greedy fats cat who wants mo' money.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

So you don't want to admit Bachmann is your choice huh?? Or do you mourn that Christie just said NO?

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I don't know why the Republic establishment is fixated on getting a Northeast Republican on the ticket. Do they think Romney or Christie can pick off their state ? Yeah that worked so well for the Dems in 2004 . Didn't Kerry get N Carolina with Edwards on the ticket ? I would jump on the bandwagon of a NE Republican if Rudy would announce. But that won't happen.

I don't think any of the announced candidates will do even though I will vote for whoever is the nominee over the President... hold my nose and vote for Romney even. But it's way to early... There are enough differences between the candidates that I want to hear them make their case .

If I had a say on the candidate then I say without reservation that I'm on the Cain train. But who knows... Palin still looms and I think she'd be a fine President.

So what do you think of Reagan calling for higher taxes on the rich, and closing there loop holes??

The President used Reagan's quotes out of context... nothing new there .

And before you show that miniclip from the 1985 speech let me elaborate. Reagan lowered marginal rates and closed loopholes. Obama's Buffett rule is just a marginal rate increase on a select group of taxpayers. Reagan's tax reforms were on the right course . Obama's is just so much progressive pablum.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Palin still looms and I think she'd be a fine President.

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Oh dear.

VIDEO: Reagan Called For An End To 'Crazy' Tax Loopholes That Let Millionaires Pay Less Than Bus Drivers | ThinkProgress

You can't have it both ways. In truth, he raised and lowered taxes 17 times, not only to battle the budget, but to raise revenue, and for the record, Mr Obama has lowered taxes since he has been in office too. In the stimulus plan, that the right hates, and I the latest Jobs Bill, that the right hates even more.

FLEXIBILITY!

Again Reagan talks of loopholes... Obama talks about marginal rates.

I'm not asking for both ways. I have said put tax reform on the table to simplfy the code. Obama doesn't want that... he wants to score cheap political points with the silly Buffet rule that even Buffet is now backing off from.

Flexibility ? Reagan worked with a dominant Democrat Congress and got his agenda.. That means he had to deal with O'Neal . In Obama's case he flashes an empty piece of paper in the air and yells "pass the bill" knowing his own party in Congress won't touch it.

He tried to work with Bonehead, but yet again for the umpteenth time he was rebuked and what do you do when there is no compromise but plenty of obstruction. He is making the case to the people and the hell with congress, cantor, and bonehead. They asked, no demanded he lead, and now he is so let the chips fall where they may and we see who believes what.

Hey who started this clog up the works and don't let him win, so he can be a one term president crap in the first place.

All you righties care about it seems is the power to tell woman what they should do, trash gays, and start wars, and undermine the basics of America by defunding the government, and making even more poor people than Bush did, and let the free market do whatever it wants. Free market my a$$, take the money and go over seas and come home and talk of uncertainty, regulations and more BS excuses to keep the cash it sucked from the economy so we can be a third world like the rest of the freakin' world.

1% telling the other 99% what to do ain't going to work for me. Give me a break!

I will agree that none of the polocies or regulations of the last 3 years have gone far enough to effectively address the issues we face, but as I see it, the right doesn't want them too.

Ronald Reagan wouldn't have a chance in hell of getting elected in today's Republican Party. What's wrong with that picture.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

The system we have now works very well.....why change to a system that works poorly every place else in comparison.

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Fair crack of the whip Smoothy. Our system wins hands down ( by comparison).

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All you righties care about it seems is the power to tell woman what they should do, trash gays, and start wars, and undermine the basics of America by defunding the government, and making even more poor people than Bush did, and let the free market do whatever it wants. Free market my a$$, take the money and go over seas and come home and talk of uncertainty, regulations and more BS excuses to keep the cash it sucked from the economy so we can be a third world like the rest of the freakin' world.

1% telling the other 99% what to do ain't going to work for me. Give me a break

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Yawn... hard refute constructed rants and phantasms. I zoned out after you called protecting the life of an innocent child "telling a women what to do". I can't take an argument seriously that claims that I want to undermine the basis of America by defunding the Levithian that was never the intent of the nation's founding in the 1st place.

Doesn't matter who called for it who's going to do it?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

yawn ...hard refute constructed rants and phantasms. I zoned out after you called protecting the life of an innocent child "telling a women what to do". I can't take an argument seriously that claims that I want to undermine the basis of America by defunding the Levithian that was never the intent of the nation's founding in the 1st place.

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So preventing abortions is best done by shutting down ALL health care for a female? You have to be kidding me. That's like using a hammer to bust a pimple. Another example of Republican over reach. Just like the effort in Alabama to ban birth control.

And lets be clear, the founding fathers were 19th century men with no clue the direction this country would take, and when you speak of intent, they were well intentioned flawed humans, so don't run that intent of the founding fathers crap because obviously we are into actual practice and far beyond what they intended.

They intended that we would be free but they had slaves, so be careful who you point your intents at and see the actual practice.

And it was my turn to rant anyway. You used yours already. Hmmm, I might have a few more coming if you keep assuming the intent of long ago men. They done good with what they had, now its somebody else's turn.

Yawn Yawn Yawn some very tired issues here. I know you fellows have another year of this. I love elections here. Electioneering starts about six weeks before the election, and then it is over for another three years then we can get down to some good ole politic'n and dirt diggin but confine it to one place far away.

You guys never get out of election mode, it is a wonder you ever get anything done anyway time to discuss something important. This is race week on the mountain and I hear 80 million americans are going to tune in to see the Great Race, 1000 kilometres of V8 fury. I can't hear the buzz of bees yet but come Sunday (Saturday to you) I won't be able to hear myself think