LOL, even Obama doesn't know all about it and neither does Congress... they haven't READ it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
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LOL, even Obama doesn't know all about it and neither does Congress... they haven't READ it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Here it is from the Thin-skinned One himself, the unbelievable, hypocritical, and yes, anti-American attitude behind the Dems outrage over citizens speaking out against Obamacare... just shut up and get out of the way.
"But I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess. I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking." -Barack Obama
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
You DO know, don't you, that there is no "it"? Once a bill hits the floor, it becomes an "it", and what's in "it" would be fair debate. But, the BILLS floating around have a lot of stuff in them that won't find there way into the final bill, and there's stuff that ISN'T in them that will..
So, let's wait till there's an "it".
excon
Are you serious? It's no big deal that Congress and the president haven't read what they produced? Why do we EVER discuss bills not in their final form then? Shouldn't a "lawmaker" know what he or she is voting on, and if we wait to object until it reaches the floor for a vote isn't that too late?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I can't explain why Obama would back a "universal" health care plan that isn't universal. That's his bit of insanity. He'll have to try to explain it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
But he won't. He won't even admit to it.
Elliot
You're full of hate. Hard to have a discussion with you.
Not hate. Just a realistic view of him and his goals. He doesn't merit my hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Have you ever stopped to wonder if maybe, just maybe, accusing others of being "full of hate" is a display of hatred?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Is this what Pelosi and Hoyer meant by un-American?
Just waiting for Pelosi and Hoyer to denounce this un-American astroturfing by the SEIU...Quote:
Healthcare Town Hall Forum with Congressman Jim Himes
August 06, 2009, 5:30 PM - 7:00 PM
Stamford Senior Center, 888 Washington Blvd. Stamford, CT
Legislative Forum
Purpose: Congressional representatives are coordinating forums on the health insurance crisis around the state for constituents to come share their personal stories and hear proposed solutions being debated in Washington, DC.
Agenda: Congressman Jim Himes (D-4), who has already been hard at work organizing his peers in Washington DC for health insurance reform, will speak and listen to our concerns.
Action: Opponents of reform are organizing counter-demonstrators to speak at this and several congressional town halls on the issue to defend the status quo. It is critical that our members with real, personal stories about the need for access to quality, affordable care come out in strong numbers to drown out their voices.
How's this for astro-turfing ? Here are the Obot marching orders from HCAN :
Health Care for America NOW - Steps To Win
And here is Madame Mimi's strategy memo obtained by Connie Hair at Human Events (link here )
Revealed: Pelosi July 31 Strategy Memo - HUMAN EVENTS
I went to that site. "Obot"? "Marching orders"? Dude there is something wrong with you if that's what you see there.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
"it's important that you take away right-wingers' opportunities to talk with reporters."
"confiscate signs or leaflets"
"Make sure that you assign marshals to take care of moving the crowd."
None of that text appears on the Health Care for America site.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Nah... it's just in Pelosi's memo. The memo that she never intended to be made public. Did you think she would really post those things online where everyone could see them? Nope... this was all in secret.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Like it or not, Pelosi and her sycophants are EXACTLY the mad mob of anti-free-speech brown-shirts that she accused the protesters on the Right of being. SHE'S the Nazi.
I see. Tom was trying to mislead people again. Quelle surprise.
No he wasn't. He gave both sites. You only looked at one. YOU are the one misleading others.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Try to follow threads you'll understanding things better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Part one (find the link yourself)
From: Margarida Jorge To: HCAN Field Partners
RE: HCAN—Responding to Right-Wing Attacks in the Field - August 4, 2009
Since early February, we've seen increasing numbers of militant right-wing activists attending public meetings across the country targeting Members of Congress and President Obama. Now in the August recess, the “tea-bagger” protesters and right-wing activists are showing up in larger numbers with a mission to be as disruptive as possible in the hopes of rattling Members of Congress and halting health care reform through pure spectacle and obstruction.
Our response is shaped by 3 things:
In many cases, protestors will show up at events or meetings you don't organize but are participating in as an attendee or sponsor. You can still influence the outcome of these events or meetings, and it's important for HCAN organizers and leaders to be ready to encounter these protesters in order to make sure that our volunteers and activists respond appropriately as well as capitalize on opportunities to also move our message, work with Members, and educate the public.
- Our targets are Members of Congress who must vote “yes” for this bill. Our targets are not the rightwing extremists. The targets of these attacks are Members of Congress. Those Members are also our targets. We need to use these attacks as opportunities to work with the Members in ways that build our relationship in the field and bring us together as allies in health care reform. Members may be more receptive to partnering with us if they know we will help them combat the opposition.
- Our core message is effective, and we should always come back to it. Our campaign plan has always anticipated opposition. No matter what the right-wingers bring up to distract the debate, we should always circle back to our key message. We are on the side of quality, affordable health care for everyone, and we are against turning over health care reform to the insurance companies and lobbyists who got us into this mess to begin with. We need to educate the press and the public that the protesters are aligned with the corporate lobbyists and insurance companies who are trying to stop reform.
- Our ability to put the extremists into perspective helps us frame our narrative. We should be prepared to respond to the other side, but we don't need to be reactive or feel pressure to answer their accusations point by point. Instead, we should treat them as agents of the insurance lobbyists who want to maintain the status quo. We can dismiss their radical rhetoric by circling back to the basic things that we know most people care about— affordability, access, and quality.
Part II
Who are these people?
The people who show up are far right-wing ideologues recruited by paid organizers. Much of this recruitment and organizing is funded by industry lobbyists and public relations firms to engage radical right-wing groups. Many of these groups are motivated by far right ideology in general - not by health care as an issue. They are held together by a common vision of the world that centers on defeating Obama and his agenda. We can expect to see anti-abortion groups, pro-gun groups, insurance company employees (mandated by employers to come out), militia groups, and antiimmigration groups.
What are their goals in turning out disruptive mobs?
Their goal is to stop Obama, influence the media, and scare Members of Congress into thinking that there is more resistance to health care reform than really exists. The attendees are not reflective of the middle or average Republican Party member. Insurance industry lobbyists and public relations firms recruit mostly right-wing extremists who are willing to employ militant tactics in order to demonize Obama by tapping into fear and anger in the electorate. The fear comes from both aggressive communications tactics and rhetoric: anti-tax, anti-abortion, anti-immigration, and other themes that resonate with the farthest right wing of their party.
What is the strategy of the lobbyists and right-wingers who are orchestrating these protests? The most important thing to remember about this type of mobilization is that it is foremost a media strategy, not an organizing strategy. These angry mobs are not trying to persuade Members of Congress or the folks who are attending the event about their point of view. Their goal is to disrupt the event as much as possible in order to:
- Prevent our message from getting out.
- Scare Members of Congress into silence and submission.
- Paint a picture for the media that conveys widespread disapproval for health care reform in order to influence the narrative.
- Create as much tension as possible at these events so that the average spectator is completely turned off and disengages totally from this issue.
What can we expect them to do?
- They will be loud: They will “Yell, stand up and shout out, and rattle” the Members of Congress. They will be disruptive and not follow the agenda. They won't wait for an opening to speak. They will just interrupt and shout from the minute the event opens until it ends.
- They will paint a picture: They will carry a lot of signs. They will have gimmicks and props to get attention from the MOCs and from the media.
- They will look bigger than they are: They will spread out and distribute their signs widely. They will also get in front of any TV camera or press people in order to make sure the story that is reported is their story.
- They will seek confrontation: The right-wing protesters will foster confrontation at every turn because that's what draws media and distracts the public. They will use any means to do this including abusive language, arrests, props, and physical violence. Be prepared.
How should we prepare to encounter the right wing protesters at MOC events?
- Contact friendly MOCs and let them know you are coming to make sure our side is heard and that the event is positive. Provide constructive support for Members of Congress who are holding public events to promote health care reform by turning out constituents and anticipating problems ahead of time. Ask the Member's staff what would be most helpful and talk through a strategy for making sure the right messages don't get drowned out by chaotic protesters.
- Inoculate your staff and your volunteers by telling them what to expect and what purpose lies behind the right-wing demonstrations. The more that the attendees know what to expect; the less startled they will be by the irrational tone and militancy of the protesters.
- Bring more people than the other side has. Their side will be smaller but noisier. You must bring enough people to drown them out and to cover all our bases so as to marginalize their disruptive tactics. You don't want to get into a screaming match, but it must be obvious to everyone—including press—that you represent the majority.
- Arrive earlier than the other side does. We need to stack our folks in the front to create a wall around the Member, and we need to stake out the best spots for visibility and signs. Reconnaissance on the venue and an understanding of the staging will be important here. Make sure you do your homework so you can position your folks most effectively.
- Be more visible than the other side. Bring more signs and leaflets, and whenever possible, post your signs all over the place so that you visually out-perform the other side. Make sure you have people holding signs in every place where a TV camera is likely to be and that next to every right wing sign, there's one of your signs with your message.
- Have a real plan for the media. Remember, this is a communications strategy that the right wing is using and our goal is to stop them from hijacking and changing the message and tone of these events. Assign 3-5 people to speak with the reporters who attend and make sure the reporters understand the scope and message of the event. If you let the media just report on what they see, they will invariably focus on the mayhem. That is a far juicer story than affordability and the public health insurance option. Don't wait for the reporter to approach you. You must approach the reporters and be assertive in shaping the narrative that they write. Have someone assigned to greeting the media or checking in media as they arrive. That way you will know who they are and be able to work with them both during the event and afterwards. Also, plan to record both the events you attend and the events you organize. TV stations will use amateur footage to round out their stories, and the other side is recording and posting video online. We need to be able to give the press video of successful events too.
How should we interact/what do we say to the other side?
- Do not debate on their “policy” points. Remember, they are seeking a platform to distort the truth about reform by making health care about abortion, rationing, euthanasia, etc. Rather than try to reply with the truth (which won't move them anyway) we should respond with our message and at every turn re-focus the agenda on communicating with the Member of Congress.
- Interrupt them when they get disruptive and refocus the meeting: Line up a number of people who feel comfortable interrupting and prepare them with statements like:
- “Excuse me, I came today to listen to Representative XXX explain how this bill is going to make health care more affordable for me and my family. We're being gouged by insurance companies that just want to make more profits while we struggle to keep up with premiums and co-pays. Representative, how are you going to fix that?”
- “I'm retired and can't afford my prescription drugs because I'm on a fixed income. Representative, how is this bill going to affect me?”
- “I want to hear the Representative speak. He's the one voting on the bill. Representative, how will this bill help people who already have insurance at work?”
- “What I'm worried about is how we're going to keep the insurance companies from continuing to charge people more for being sick and keep them from taking away coverage when we need it most. What's the plan for that?”
- Don't get into a shouting match with them. Instead, prep people on our side to keep raising the questions that we want answered. Repetition is the key. We need to arm our side with questions that play to the strength of our message and make sure we keep bringing them up over and over so that the press recognizes those central themes. We should also phrase those questions strategically to help move the message.
- “Over the last XX years, insurance company profits have risen XXX %; in this bill you would regulate insurance companies so that they can no longer deny people with pre-existing conditions and would have to play by fair rules. Isn't that right, Representative XX?”
- “Isn't it true that this bill would guarantee everyone a choice of public health insurance option that will lower cost overall in the system?”
- Address the MOC directly with a positive message: Remember, these Members need cover and they are getting beaten up by right wing zealots in these meetings. We want to let the Member know that we appreciate his efforts to hear constituents and that we, the majority, agree with him.
- We should demonstrate that we are the majority by chanting: When the other side gets too loud, we should shut them down with chants that counter their message like “Health Care Can't Wait!” and “Health Care Delayed is Health Care Denied” and prep people to chant at key points when the other side gets most disruptive.
- Follow up with the Member one-on-one: This experience may have been trying for your MOC. Make sure that you thank him and that you let him know that the majority is with him. He needs to know that we will provide cover and support him at every turn for his leadership on this issue.
Organizing your own events with a Member of Congress
One advantage to organizing your own Town Hall or public event with Members of Congress is that you will have much more control over the event and limit the other side's opportunities for disruption. Still, you should take precautions to make sure that you can keep meetings you organize under control. Here are some basic tips:
- Talk to the Member of Congress ahead of time so that you agree on a format that is comfortable for the Member and that you can troubleshoot roles or concerns that the Member may have about the event. It is important to know how much time the Member will have, when he will arrive, what staff he's bringing, and how many questions he'll answer so that you can anticipate any issues that may arise and can plan your program appropriately.
- Know who you are turning out to attend the event. Make sure you turn out a substantial number of people from your base and that everyone signs a sign in sheet upon entering the event. Give everyone name tags so they are easily identifiable. If you want to ensure greater control over turnout, you can ask attendees to rsvp or even issue tickets to the event and require presentation of the ticket at the entrance.
- Choose a venue that is difficult for the opposition to access without being noticed. Get to your location early and make sure you set up the venue in a way that ensures that the attendees you want are at the front and that any protesters who come are sequestered as far as possible from the stage. Make sure that you have signs and visuals up and that you adequately understand the layout of your venue so that you know where the entrances are, where the press will be positioned, where your speakers will be, etc.
- Select a strong moderator to move the agenda in a disciplined way. Make sure you select someone who is comfortable interrupting rowdy protesters, who can command the attention of the room, and who understands how to de-escalate tensions and re-direct people to the agenda.
- Lay out goals for the meeting and establish ground rules for conduct in the meeting at the beginning of the event. Among these ground rules should be a protocol for asking questions. One way to do this is to ask people to submit questions ahead of time on cards, to permit only one question at a time, and to limit the topic of questions.
- Plan for disturbances and assign marshals. Make sure that you assign marshals to take care of moving the crowd, keeping people organized and orderly, and acting as security should any need arise to ask noisy or disruptive protesters to leave. If you have cause to think that you will need more back-up, notify the police ahead of time.
- Collect signs and leaflets that are not provided by you or your organization. Another way to limit protesters' ability to hijack your event is to confiscate signs or leaflets that they may bring into the venue from outside. The best way to do this is to make a blanket rule that no one can bring signs or leaflets and to advertise this fact as you do turn out in the weeks preceding the event. You can distribute your own signs in the event and offer them one as they enter if you choose to allow them to enter.
- Assign people to greet the media and to stay close to reporters both as they enter and leave the event. It's important that you take away right-wingers opportunities to talk with reporters by making sure that your staff or leaders are in constant contact with the media who attend. You should set up a special table or area for the press to sit during the event and that area should be close t the stage and away from any areas of the venue where protesters may gather. Also make sure you have materials ready for the reporters so that they know the purpose and message of the event.
The SEIU chapter scrubbed their site of the "drown out" comment. I guess they realized it was tough to use when that's exactly what Pelosi and Hoyer called un-American.
Hello again, Steve:
I don't remember you're being so up in arms when people like me were being accused of being UN American when I didn't go along with the war, the detention, the spying, and any other the's I can think of...
Nor, do I remember you correcting Sarah Palin when she told those little red neck audiences that she finally was in REAL America...
Nope, I don't remember it at all...
I also don't see you putting down Glen Beck or the Limp one for using the Nazi stuff... Or suggesting that Pelosi should be POISONED...
Nope, I don't see ANY of that stuff coming from your side... Besides, I thought you were the TOUGH guys. No??
excon
I don't recall you being called un-American for such things, but a) I support your right to express your opinion and don't consider that un-American and b) I figure if nothing else you can handle it pretty well yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I believe Sarah apologized for that remark. Still waiting on Pelosi, Hoyer and every other ELECTED leader that has disparaged Americans in the last week to apologize.Quote:
Nor, do I remember you correcting Sarah Palin when she told those little red neck audiences that she finally was in REAL America...
You'd have to be more specific.Quote:
I also don't see you putting down Glen Beck or the Limp one for using the Nazi stuff... Or suggesting that Pelosi should be POISONED...
What does TOUGH have to do with it?Quote:
Nope, I don't see ANY of that stuff coming from your side... Besides, I thought you were the TOUGH guys. No??
Hello again, Steve:Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
Well, I was checking out the haps at Fox when I came upon Glen Beck drinking a glass of wine with another glass sitting there. He was pretending that he was sipping Cabernet with Speaker Pelosi... He invited her to take a drink... Then he said he POISONED it...
Did he suggest that somebody poison her?? Maybe.
And, if you haven't been listening to the drugged out limp one for the past two days, you missed the Nazi name calling... But, I didn't... If you want to hear some Nazi name calling, just check out the Wolverines stuff, AND HE'S A JEW!
Soooo, I'm not going to get too upset about Madame Speaker saying somebody is UN American... I don't AGREE with her, but in the context of the general conversation, it's pretty MILD.
What does being tough have to do with it?? I thought tough meant thicker skin... Guess not.
excon
Oh, did I offend your sensibilities, Excon?
I didn't hear you make any comments when Pelosi accused people on the right of toting around swastikas.
But if I should, G-d forbid, call her a Nazi after she is caught with a memo specifically CALLING for her goon squads to "take away right-wingers' opportunities to talk with reporters", "confiscate signs or leaflets" and "Make sure that you assign marshals to take care of moving the crowd." Despite the fact that those are Nazi-era strong-arm tactics, and despite the fact that she called people on the other side Nazis, you have a problem with her having to take the same treatment she dishes out.
The fact that she called OTHERS Nazis is sheer hypocrisy on her part.
The fact that you make no comment when she does it, but jump on me when I do it is hypocrisy on YOUR part.
So if your sensibilities are offended, excon, I'm afraid that you're just going to have to deal with it. Fair's fair. What's good for the Speaker is good for me too.
Elliot
Hello Elliot:Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Here's the part you don't understand... The comparison between the Speaker of the House of Representatives, because of what she says, to the people who murdered 6 million of us, is deeply flawed. It DIMINISHES what those murdering bastards did to your family and mine.
As a Jew, and a deeply devoted one, I can't believe that you'd so callously throw around that phrase... But, you NEVER cease to surprise me.
excon
My skin's plenty thick for a sniveling weasel like Pelosi to call me un-American. That doesn't make it right. The leader of the House of Representatives needs to act like a representative, not someone declaring war on the people she represents.
Oh, there was nothing callous about my usage of the phrase. I've studied the way the Nazis did what they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Pelosi's power trip from the day she became Speaker has been a perfect example of Nazism as practiced by most of the tin-dictators of the SS. And her attempt to get people who disagree with her to shut up through the use of both marginalization tactics and now strong-arm tactics is right out of the handbook of Joseph Goebbels.
There was absolutely NOTHING callous about my usage of the term Nazi. It was a very deliberate, educated and well-contemplated usage of the term.
Elliot
Actually the calling of people nazis is the domain of the uneducated i.e they have no argument. It's commonly referered to as Godwin's Law:Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Quote:
Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation coined by Mike Godwin in 1990, and which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread reductio ad Hitlerum form. The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued, that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.
There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself) than others invented later. For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress.
Yeah, I've heard of Godwin's Law. Godwin was wrong, though. You see, there are indeed plenty of times when comparisons to Hitler are very apt and appropriate. Godwin just didn't like having to face that reality. He liked a nice, neat little world where everyone was sweetness and light, and nobody lied, committed acts of violence, or had ulterior motives in their actions. Unfortunately, the world isn't the Utopia he wishes it were, and people do commit acts of evil and depravity that compare aptly to actions taken by Hitler and the Nazis.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Also, if Godwin was right, shouldn't his "law" have been applied first to Pelosi's comments about opponents of the health care bill carrying swastikas, thus comparing them to Nazis?
But of course you only apply these rules to me, not her. Which just proves the fallacy of Godwin's law. It seems that it is only selectively applied, which makes it somewhat more of a "guideline" or a "suggestion" than a "law".
Then there's the The Big Lie: tell a big enough lie enough times, and people will eventually start to believe it, even in the face of evidence to the contrary... another tactic of Hitler's listed in Mein Kampf and practiced by Joseph Goebbels. If Pelosi tells enough people that her opponents are carrying swastikas, people will believe it eventually, even though there is video evidence that proves her claim false. She truly does use the tactics of the Nazis.
Elliot
Another point on Godwin's Law:
"Although deliberately framed as if it were a law of nature or of mathematics, its purpose has always been rhetorical and pedagogical: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler or to Nazis to think a bit harder about the Holocaust."
--- Mike Godwin 4/30/08
I Seem To Be A Verb: 18 Years of Godwin's Law | Jewcy.com
He never intended there to never be apt comparisons to Hitler and the Nazis. What he had trouble with was INAPT or INAPPROPRIATE comparisons made without deliberation or understanding.
That was NOT the case in my usage of the term. It was, as I said, deliberate, educated, and well-contemplated. It was also apt.
That's the Republican mantra! Ever watched Fox News?Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
Yep. Most days of the week. Haven't caught them in a lie yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I notice, though, that you've dropped your idiotic invocation of Godwin's Law.
Good for you.
Ah, so Pelosi is uneducated, she has no argument. I agree with that assessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I love the way you call people nazis, idiotic, insane, etc and you consider yourself some kind of devout religious type.Quote:
Originally Posted by ETWolverine
I don't consider myself anything. I do consider Pelosi's actions to be reminiscent of Nazi behaviors.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
And I don't see you arguing that fact. You don't seem capable of defending her actions as anything OTHER than Nazism.
Checkmate.
Elliot
You are a big funny man. LOL!
One of us has to be, and it ain't you.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
I know. I'm a fit realist who likes my fellow man.
No, I'M a realist. You're a Utopian socialist who believes that everything your government does is in your best interests.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedKarma
And I like my fellow man too. That's why I want the government to stay out of his life just like I want it to stay out of mine.
I guess it's because we live in different countries and my governemnt is not owned by corporate interests. You keep on living in fear of everything, I don't have to - I guess that's our biggest difference.
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