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  • Apr 22, 2009, 04:39 PM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    Bottom line .... dunking KSM exposed the 'next wave' which was a plot to attack LA with International Airliners . The question is ;since the technique most likey saved the lives of hundreds if not thousands in LA.. "Men sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

    Hello again, tom:

    All unsubstantiated and uncorroborated reports from the people most likely to lie about it - the CIA, and the vice dufus his damn self. Believe me, if there WAS a memo that proves what vice is saying, and that exonerated the CIA, doncha think it would have been leaked by now??

    Plus, the "technique", which you still miscast as "dunking", doesn't work any better than ordinary interrogation. Not a life was saved - not a one. In fact, it could be argued that since torture is a recruiting magnet for Al Quaida, it has endangered us substantially. I'm making that argument.

    I have a great deal of respect for violent men who risk their lives on the battlefield. I have NO respect at all for violent bullies, who take NO risk when they slam their handcuffed victim against the wall. Where is the honor in that?

    excon
  • Apr 22, 2009, 05:02 PM
    excon

    Hello again, tom:

    You told me once, that the value of waterboarding is that the detainee thinks he's going to drown. You also told me that the problem with releasing information about the "techniques", is that they'll find out that they WON'T die when they're waterboarded...

    Doncha think Zubydah figured out he wasn't going to die after the first waterboarding? Plus, if it works, how come it didn't work the first 82 times they did it??

    excon
  • Apr 23, 2009, 02:16 AM
    tomder55
    Quote:

    All unsubstantiated and uncorroborated reports


    Plus, the "technique", which you still miscast as "dunking", doesn't work any better than ordinary interrogation. Not a life was saved - not a one. In fact, it could be argued that since torture is a recruiting magnet for Al Quaida, it has endangered us substantially. I'm making that argument.
    Obama's Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair, is a retired admiral who commanded the Navy in the Pacific and served on the White House's National Security Council .He wrote in his memo that the techniques employed were effective . He joins a list of high ranking military ,justice and intelligence directors who make the same claim. All I ever hear in rebute is field agents who by their own admission were often reporting 2nd hand information with prejudice.

    Very simple remedy... release the unredacted documents that Cheney has requested. Why not if the Obamas have nothing to hide ? It will come out in evidentiary discovery anyway if Holder persues this .
    Quote:

    In fact, it could be argued that since torture is a recruiting magnet for Al Quaida, it has endangered us substantially. I'm making that argument.
    Those methods foiled terrorist plots, in particular KSM's 2nd wave plan to fly a passenger jet into the Library Tower in Los Angeles, the West Coast's tallest skyscraper.

    How can "image" trump the saving of lives in national security policy?
  • Apr 23, 2009, 07:29 AM
    ETWolverine

    Excon,

    Are you aware of the fact that last year Ted Kennedy tried to get waterboarding listed as "torture" via legislation?

    If waterboarding actually was torture, why would he have to change the law to get it to be called torture?

    BTW, the legislation failed BADLY in the Senate, with even a majority of Dems voting against it. There are two possibilities as to why that would be:

    1) They don't really believe that it is torture themselves, or

    2) By changing the law NOW, they would have to admitt that Bush and his people were within the bounds of the law at the time they performed these acts. To do that would mean that they would have to let Bush drop out of the limelight, and wouldn't have him as a whipping boy or a distraction from their miserably failed policies. Better for them to compromise on their beliefs regarding the legality or illegality of waterboarding, just as long as they can keep blaming Bush for everything that they do wrong, especially on national security.

    Elliot
  • Apr 23, 2009, 07:31 AM
    speechlesstx
    Someone at Huffpo - an Air America host - is even asking "what would you NOT do to stop a nuke?"

    Quote:

    I repeat: What would you not do to locate that nuclear device?

    My answer is simple. I wouldn't not do anything to locate and defuse a nuclear devise to avoid its imminent detonation. But first on my list of interrogation techniques would not be torture or insects placed within a confinement box. (Hats off to the sick bastard who thought of that one.)

    In fact, it was reported that a legal memorandum prepared for the CIA noted that along with said insect placement, approved interrogation techniques included inter alia: attention grasp, walling (hitting a detainee against a flexible wall), facial hold, facial slap, cramped confinement, wall standing, stress positions, sleep deprivation and waterboarding).

    But would I proscribe Draconian treatment absolutely? In every case? When some experts and military types tell me it's effective? I'll eschew, all right. But how can I say that these techniques, call it "torture," are never to be used?
    Amazing how the tone can change when their own side says it works.
  • Apr 23, 2009, 07:48 AM
    excon

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine
    If waterboarding actually was torture, why would he have to change the law to get it to be called torture?

    Hello again, El:

    If waterboarding ISN'T torture, why did F.B.I. director, Robert Mueller pull his men off the project telling them "we don't do that"?

    Speech. You can line up all the dufus's you want from either side saying that torture worked and it's a good thing. It's not. It never was. It never will be. That's so!

    excon
  • Apr 23, 2009, 08:11 AM
    tomder55
    Richard Fernandez (aka Wrechard ) at Belmont Club once was involved in the anti-Marcos insurgency in the Philippines.

    He has an interesting take on the subject.
    ( I will allow for the differences in definition in the terminologies over what torture ;under duress etc. It is safe to state that the rebels in the Philippines were subject to real torture as opposed to the techniques described by the memos... and address the issue of effectiveness.)

    Belmont Club Terrorism and moral torture

    Quote:

    When I ran safehouses in the anti-Marcos days the first order of business whenever a cell member was captured by the police was to alert the surviving members, move the safehouse and destroy all links to the captured person. That's because everyone knew that there was a great probability that the captive would talk under duress, however great his bravery and resistance. Nobody I know, or have heard of who has had experience in real-life situations has ever said, “our cell should continue as usual and the safehouse should remain open, despite the fact that one of our own is being tortured by the secret police, because I read in the New York Times that coercion never works.”
  • Apr 23, 2009, 08:49 AM
    excon

    Hello again, Speech:

    I'm amazed that I, excon, am the only one in the world who can see that the emperor has no clothes.. When I was a kid, I read about a guy who could do that, but I never thought I'd become him.

    Well, apparently, I have.

    I'm going to try to show you the same thing I see. It isn't difficult to grasp. In fact it's easy, otherwise I never would have latched on to it, that's for sure. But, sometimes people refuse to see, even after their blindfolds have been removed. But, you're a smart guy. I KNOW you'll get it.

    Let's see, the ticking time bomb... You've got somebody who knows where the bomb is. What do you do to him to get that information?? Is that the scenario?

    Ok, here's the key question. How do you KNOW the guy you have has the information you want?

    In fact, you don't. You may have to think about that for a while, because it's new information. But, by any logic you may choose to incorporate, you don't know - can't know - what the guy in front of you knows.

    You can only surmise what he knows, and that's not reason enough to pull his fingernails out. Consequently, the "ticking time bomb", is a ruse to scare people and convince them they need to torture. It certainly sounds different, doesn't it, when said this way: You've got a guy in front of you who you THINK knows where the bomb is? Yeah, it does. This would be easier if people would watch PBS instead of Jack Bauer. But, I'm up to the task.

    excon
  • Apr 23, 2009, 10:07 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Ok, here's the key question. How do you KNOW the guy you have has the information you want?

    You don't, I think we all know that. I also think we all know the shadow warriors do a pretty good job of figuring out whether a guy might have information.

    Quote:

    You can only surmise what he knows, and that's not reason enough to pull his fingernails out.
    I never said pull his fingernails out and I haven't seen anything to suggest that's what we're doing. I have seen throwing them against a false wall, tossing some bugs in with them and yes, waterboarding.

    Quote:

    Consequently, the "ticking time bomb", is a ruse to scare people and convince them they need to torture.
    That was the lefty from Air America's words, not mine. But care to answer his question? What you not do to stop a nuke?

    Quote:

    It certainly sounds different, doesn't it, when said this way: You've got a guy in front of you who you THINK knows where the bomb is?
    But you say that as if there is never any compelling evidence to suggest he does know something. Are they just grabbing guys off the street at random and asking, "hey you, do you know where the bomb is?"

    Quote:

    Yeah, it does. This would be easier if people would watch PBS instead of Jack Bauer. But, I'm up to the task.
    It is funny how the very people that whine the most love to use the idea it to make millions of dollars to entertain us. By the way, I don't watch Jack Bauer, but I do watch The Unit. They tend to not take many prisoners - they just shoot them.

    One good thing about the left admitting to the fact that torture can indeed accomplish the objective is maybe we can finally have an honest discussion.
  • Apr 24, 2009, 06:10 AM
    speechlesstx
    Pelosi, who is pushing for investigations on torture, claims she knew nothing about the interrogation methods that were being used on detainees. "Flat out, they never briefed us that this was happening," she said.

    Quote:

    In September 2002, four members of Congress met in secret for a first look at a unique CIA program designed to wring vital information from reticent terrorism suspects in U.S. custody. For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA's overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.

    Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised. Instead, at least two lawmakers in the room asked the CIA to push harder, two U.S. officials said.

    "The briefer was specifically asked if the methods were tough enough," said a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange...

    Yet long before "waterboarding" entered the public discourse, the CIA gave key legislative overseers about 30 private briefings, some of which included descriptions of that technique and other harsh interrogation methods, according to interviews with multiple U.S. officials with firsthand knowledge.

    With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, from 2002 to 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan).

    Individual lawmakers' recollections of the early briefings varied dramatically, but officials present during the meetings described the reaction as mostly quiet acquiescence, if not outright support. "Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing," said Goss, who chaired the House intelligence committee from 1997 to 2004 and then served as CIA director from 2004 to 2006. "And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement."
    What a liar.
  • Apr 24, 2009, 09:16 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El:

    If waterboarding ISN'T torture, why did F.B.I. director, Robert Mueller pull his men off the project telling them "we don't do that"?

    Because it's the CIA and the Military's job. The FBI is a law enforcement agency, and it shouldn't be doing military style interrogations. The CIA and the military are free to use these techniques. Mueller was right... the FBI doesn't do that. The CIA and the military do.

    Quote:

    Speech. You can line up all the dufus's you want from either side saying that torture worked and it's a good thing. It's not. It never was. It never will be. That's so!

    Excon
    Saying "that's so" doesn't make it so. The proof is in the pudding... terrorist attacks were stopped because of information garnered via these techniques. The saving of American lives is always a good thing.

    Elliot
  • Apr 24, 2009, 09:22 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    Saying "that's so" doesn't make it so. The proof is in the pudding... terrorist attacks were stopped because of information garnered via these techniques.

    Hello again, El:

    What?? And, YOU'RE not just "saying it"?? Dude! There's NO proof. There's TALK of proof, and that (to quote a friend), doesn't make it so.

    excon
  • Apr 24, 2009, 09:39 AM
    ETWolverine

    Eyewitness testimony is proof, excon, even in our current, liberal court system. We have eyewitness statements people who were there, who used the actionable intelligence gleaned from these interrogations, who are clearly saying that it worked. We may be talking about unreleased memos, but there is proof well beyond that that is public. It ain't me saying it, it's them.

    Elliot
  • Apr 26, 2009, 08:54 AM
    excon

    Hello again:

    Couple things.

    Whether is works or not, ISN'T the issue for me, and I'm not going to discuss it further. I don't care if it DOES work. It's depraved, immoral, and inhuman. It's against everything we stand for as a country. It's against everything I went to war for, and spilled my blood on the battlefield for. It's as ANTI and UN-American as you get.

    The people who support it do not understand the door they have opened. It will forever change the future of this country. It's a future that I, for one, WILL not go down.

    The TORTURE that occurred under Bush must be totally, and absolutely repudiated by this nation. "Going forward" doesn't do that. I't leaves torture ON the table for some future demagogue to use again, in our name. I will not permit that.

    I'm an American. We hold people to account here. My country does NOT torture. Nor does it change the meaning of the word simply because they want to do it. That's what happened here, plain and simple.

    The people that did it, MUST be held to account!

    excon
  • Apr 26, 2009, 10:12 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again:

    Couple things.

    Whether is works or not, ISN'T the issue for me, and I'm not going to discuss it further. I don't care if it DOES work. It's depraved, immoral, and inhuman. It's against everything we stand for as a country. It's against everything I went to war for, and spilled my blood on the battlefield for. It's as ANTI and UN-American as you get.

    OK, then. What did you spill your blood on the battlefield for? Leaving aside the fact that you were drafted. (Or so you told me.) What was it you were fighting for?

    I thought that you were fighting for the security of the USA. I thought that that was the primary goal of soldiers... keeping the USA safe. I thought that that was the reason for the military.

    Seems that you were fighting for something else... something that has never actually existed in this or any other country. It seems you were fighting to be considered a nice guy. Which, to me, means you were never the proper person to be in battle in the first place. Which just proves my point about an all volunteer military being better at its job than a conscripted military.

    In what way does what you are proposing fit the military goal of keeping the USA safe... which is the ONLY goal of the military.

    "People sleep soundly at night because rough men stand ready to do battle."

    Quote:

    The people who support it do not understand the door they have opened. It will forever change the future of this country. It's a future that I, for one, WILL not go down.
    Fool! What we are supporting is exactly what has existed since the founding of this nation. It is not a door being opened. It is a door we are trying to keep suicidally idealistic nut jobs from closing.

    Quote:

    The TORTURE that occurred under Bush must be totally, and absolutely repudiated by this nation. "Going forward" doesn't do that. I't leaves torture ON the table for some future demagogue to use again, in our name. I will not permit that.
    Then you are committing national suicide. And I will not permit THAT. It's my life and those of my family that you are putting on the line for your misguided idealism.

    Quote:

    I'm an American. We hold people to account here.
    So will you be held accountable if we do get your way and the result is another major attack that kills thousands more Americans... or millions? Will Obama and his cronies? Who is responsible if, as a direct result of a change in our intelligence gathering policies, we get attacked? What level of accountability will you face as one who supports this change?

    Quote:

    My country does NOT torture.
    Really? What country do you live in. Because it ain't the good ol' U.S. of A.

    Quote:

    Nor does it change the meaning of the word simply because they want to do it. That's what happened here, plain and simple.
    I ask again... have you read the memo? Have you read the reports of what was actually done? (Not the MSM reports, the actual reports of the people involved.) It is VERY clear that what they did WASN'T torture. But you have to have actually done the research in order to accept that fact.

    Are you aware of the number of restrictions put on waterboarding as performed by the interrogators at Gitmo?

    -There had to be a medic on hand at all times.

    -At no point could a "pour" last more than 40 seconds, and only three times in any session could it last more than twenty seconds.

    -No session could last more than 2 hours.

    -The total "pour" time could not last more than 20 minutes collectively in any 2 hour session.

    -Sessions could not occur more than twice a day.

    -No more than 6 sessions in a single week.

    You asked why it tool so many times being dunked before KSM talked? The above restrictions are the answer. It is clear proof that no matter how unpleasant it may have been, it was NOT torture.

    As a matter of important fact, the techniques used on the terrorists were based on the techniques used in SERE (Survival Evasion Resistance and Escape) training in the military, only with even more restrictions. Unless you are prepared to claim that the US military tortures its own men and women, the only conclusion is that these techniques are not torture.

    Here is the technique described in the Office of Legal Council's 2002 memo:

    "In this procedure, the individual is bound securely to an inclined bench, which is approximately four feet by seven feet. The individual's feet are generally elevated. A cloth is placed over the forehead and eyes. Water is then applied to the cloth in a controlled manner. As this is done, the cloth is lowered until it covers both the nose and mouth. Once the cloth is saturated and completely covers the mouth and nose, air flow is slightly restricted for 20 to 40 seconds due to the presence of the cloth… During those 20 to 40 seconds, water is continuously applied from a height of twelve to twenty-four inches. After this period, the cloth is lifted, and the individual is allowed to breathe unimpeded for three or four full breaths… The procedure may then be repeated. The water is usually applied from a canteen cup or small watering can with a spout… You have… informed us that it is likely that this procedure would not last more than twenty minutes in any one application."


    Quote:

    The people that did it, MUST be held to account!
    I agree. Every one of them should be given a medal.

    Elliot
  • Apr 26, 2009, 02:03 PM
    galveston

    The idea that I have seen bandied about that Gitmo waterboarding and the water torture used by the Japanese in WW2 are somehow similar is absured.

    Only the name water is the same.

    Phooey! I can hold my breath much longer than 40 seconds!!
  • Apr 26, 2009, 02:09 PM
    excon

    Hello again, El and Gal:

    You poor, poor lost souls. May God forgive you, for you know not what you speak.

    excon
  • Apr 26, 2009, 02:21 PM
    galveston
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again, El and Gal:

    You poor, poor lost souls. May God forgive you, for you know not what you speak.

    excon

    I most certaily do know that I can hold my breath for more than 40 seconds!

    And thanks to Obama, If I were in that position I now know that I wouldn't have to hold it longer than that.
  • Apr 27, 2009, 04:50 AM
    tomder55

    Galveston is right in that the disclosure of the memos and subsequent publicly announced policies advertise what jihadists need to train for. He is also right in earlier comments that humiliation is an underused resource ;and should not be considered torture.
  • Apr 27, 2009, 06:51 AM
    excon

    Hello again:

    This thread has run its course. There can't be any rational discussion of these issues when one side isn't rational.

    I can't tell if my opposition is saying that 1) torture isn't torture, that 2) torture is lawful and constitutional, that 3) they deserve it, or that 4) torture works.

    Frankly, it matters not which of those it is, cause ALL of 'em are Orwellian and, an anathema to what America stands for. When they come up with something cogent, I'll take 'em on. But, right now, they've truly lost their minds.

    excon
  • Apr 27, 2009, 07:04 AM
    speechlesstx
    I guess I've lost my mind because I think it's despicable for members of Congress to be fully aware of what was taking place and then turn their backs on their country, their soldiers and intelligence personnel in lying through their teeth about it in manufactured political outrage.

    Quote:

    Security Before Politics

    By Porter J. Goss
    Saturday, April 25, 2009

    Since leaving my post as CIA director almost three years ago, I have remained largely silent on the public stage. I am speaking out now because I feel our government has crossed the red line between properly protecting our national security and trying to gain partisan political advantage. We can't have a secret intelligence service if we keep giving away all the secrets. Americans have to decide now.

    A disturbing epidemic of amnesia seems to be plaguing my former colleagues on Capitol Hill. After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, members of the committees charged with overseeing our nation's intelligence services had no higher priority than stopping al-Qaeda. In the fall of 2002, while I was chairman of the House intelligence committee, senior members of Congress were briefed on the CIA's "High Value Terrorist Program," including the development of "enhanced interrogation techniques" and what those techniques were. This was not a one-time briefing but an ongoing subject with lots of back and forth between those members and the briefers.

    Today, I am slack-jawed to read that members claim to have not understood that the techniques on which they were briefed were to actually be employed; or that specific techniques such as "waterboarding" were never mentioned. It must be hard for most Americans of common sense to imagine how a member of Congress can forget being told about the interrogations of Sept. 11 mastermind Khalid Sheik Mohammed. In that case, though, perhaps it is not amnesia but political expedience.

    Let me be clear. It is my recollection that:

    -- The chairs and the ranking minority members of the House and Senate intelligence committees, known as the Gang of Four, were briefed that the CIA was holding and interrogating high-value terrorists.

    -- We understood what the CIA was doing.

    -- We gave the CIA our bipartisan support.

    -- We gave the CIA funding to carry out its activities.

    -- On a bipartisan basis, we asked if the CIA needed more support from Congress to carry out its mission against al-Qaeda.


    I do not recall a single objection from my colleagues. They did not vote to stop authorizing CIA funding. And for those who now reveal filed "memorandums for the record" suggesting concern, real concern should have been expressed immediately -- to the committee chairs, the briefers, the House speaker or minority leader, the CIA director or the president's national security adviser -- and not quietly filed away in case the day came when the political winds shifted. And shifted they have.

    Circuses are not new in Washington, and I can see preparations being made for tents from the Capitol straight down Pennsylvania Avenue. The CIA has been pulled into the center ring before. The result this time will be the same: a hollowed-out service of diminished capabilities. After Sept. 11, the general outcry was, "Why don't we have better overseas capabilities?" I fear that in the years to come this refrain will be heard again: once a threat -- or God forbid, another successful attack -- captures our attention and sends the pendulum swinging back. There is only one person who can shut down this dangerous show: President Obama.

    Unfortunately, much of the damage to our capabilities has already been done. It is certainly not trust that is fostered when intelligence officers are told one day "I have your back" only to learn a day later that a knife is being held to it. After the events of this week, morale at the CIA has been shaken to its foundation.

    We must not forget: Our intelligence allies overseas view our inability to maintain secrecy as a reason to question our worthiness as a partner.
    These allies have been vital in almost every capture of a terrorist.

    The suggestion that we are safer now because information about interrogation techniques is in the public domain conjures up images of unicorns and fairy dust. We have given our enemy invaluable information about the rules by which we operate. The terrorists captured by the CIA perfected the act of beheading innocents using dull knives. Khalid Sheik Mohammed boasted of the tactic of placing explosives high enough in a building to ensure that innocents trapped above would die if they tried to escape through windows. There is simply no comparison between our professionalism and their brutality.

    Our enemies do not subscribe to the rules of the Marquis of Queensbury. "Name, rank and serial number" does not apply to non-state actors but is, regrettably, the only question this administration wants us to ask. Instead of taking risks, our intelligence officers will soon resort to wordsmithing cables to headquarters while opportunities to neutralize brutal radicals are lost.

    The days of fortress America are gone. We are the world's superpower. We can sit on our hands or we can become engaged to improve global human conditions. The bottom line is that we cannot succeed unless we have good intelligence. Trading security for partisan political popularity will ensure that our secrets are not secret and that our intelligence is destined to fail us.
  • Apr 27, 2009, 07:18 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GOSS
    The terrorists captured by the CIA perfected the act of beheading innocents using dull knives.

    Hello again, Steve:

    In other words, they deserved it. I think I mentioned that. See reason 3), above.

    But, thanks for a new reason to torture; 5) it was OK because we told the Democrats. Noooo, Steve. Telling someone you're breaking the law doesn't excuse you from breaking the law. It really doesn't.

    excon
  • Apr 27, 2009, 07:38 AM
    ETWolverine
    excon,

    "[A] strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all hose who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means."

    --- Thomas Jefferson

    "[An insurrection] in nearly one-third of the States had subverted the whole of the laws.. . Are all the laws, but one, to go unexecuted, and the government itself go to pieces, lest that one [Constitutional law] be violated?"

    --- Abraham Lincoln


    [Congressman Clement Vallandigham was arrested] because he was laboring, with some effect, to prevent the raising of troops, to encourage desertions from the army, and to leave the rebellion without an adequate military force to suppress it.. . Must I shoot a simple-minded deserter, while I must not touch a hair of a wily agitator who induces him to desert [because of Constitutional law]?"

    --- Abraham Lincoln

    (In both of these statements, Lincoln was defending his violation of the Constitution because it made no sense to follow the Constitution to the point of destruction of the Nation. He was saying, in essence, that the Constitution is not a suicide pact.)



    "The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact."

    ---Justice Robert Houghwout Jackson, 1949, Terminiello v. Chicago


    "The Constitution is silent about the permissibility of involuntary forfeiture of citizenship rights. While it confirms citizenship rights, plainly there are imperative obligations of citizenship, performance of which Congress in the exercise of its powers may constitutionally exact. One of the most important of these is to serve the country in time of war and national emergency. The powers of Congress to require military service for the common defense are broad and far-reaching, for while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact. Similarly, Congress has broad power under the Necessary and Proper Clause to enact legislation for the regulation of foreign affairs. Latitude in this area is necessary to ensure effectuation of this indispensable function of government."

    --- Justice Arthur Goldberg, 1963, Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez


    I am still trying to figure out where in our history you get the idea that our country has to be better vis-à-vis human rights than our enemies, unto the point of committing suicide. Can you please tell me WHERE you got this idea? Can you show me a time when this idea was ever true and not some sort of idealistic fantasy? When have we ever agreed to commit suicide in order to uphold the Constitution for our ENEMIES?

    Elliot
  • Apr 27, 2009, 07:59 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    I am still trying to figure out where in our history you get the idea that our country has to be better vis-a-vis human rights than our enemies, unto the point of committing suicide. When have we ever agreed to commit suicide in order to uphold the Constitution for our ENEMIES?

    Hello El:

    Couple things.

    Dude! We don't HAVE to be better. We CHOOSE to be.

    Bush was supposed to uphold the Constitution. It's got nothing to do with our enemy.

    But, you are to be commended by offering reason to torture 6); OK, we broke the law, but the Constitution isn't a suicide pact.

    I guess that makes you feel better... You guys only seem to glom onto that old rightwing saw when you want to VIOLATE the Constitution. But, when it comes to your Second Amendment rights, you're all over it.

    Your hypocrisy is manifest. It's here for all to read. I say again, you guys have lost your minds.

    excon
  • Apr 27, 2009, 08:02 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ETWolverine View Post
    I am still trying to figure out where in our history you get the idea that our country has to be better vis-a-vis human rights than our enemies, unto the point of committing suicide. Can you please tell me WHERE you got this idea? Can you show me a time when this idea was ever true and not some sort of idealistic fantasy? When have we ever agreed to commit suicide in order to uphold the Constitution for our ENEMIES?

    "Unto the point of committing suicide." Exactly, and I have to ask what would you NOT do to protect your family from imminent danger? I certainly would not whip out my pocket constitution and give it a read through, I'd do whatever was necessary to protect them.
  • Apr 27, 2009, 08:09 AM
    excon
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    "Unto the point of committing suicide." Exactly, and I have to ask what would you NOT do to protect your family from imminent danger? I certainly would not whip out my pocket constitution and give it a read through, I'd do whatever was necessary to protect them.

    Hello again, Steve:

    My gosh, my gosh. Nobody is asking YOU to take out your pocket Constitution... Whether YOU violate somebody's rights ISN'T the issue.

    The issue IS, if you're the president, and you're about to make a big decision, you'd BETTER WHIP OUT YOUR POCKET CONSTITUTION!! If you don't, you go to jail. That's the law.

    So, you TOO are admitting now that the dufus broke the law?? I'm sure you're not, but it looks that way. Let me know when you find your minds again, and want to have a RATIONAL discussion.

    excon
  • Apr 27, 2009, 08:18 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    I certainly would not whip out my pocket constitution and give it a read through, I'd do whatever was necessary to protect them.

    Did you get your copy from the Heritage Foundation too?

    Funny, it is only excon who feels that we need to follow the Constitution until we go down with the ship. I guess he knows better than Jefferson, Lincoln and various Justices of the Supreme Court, as well as many lower judges. AND he knows better than the military and the CIA what the military and intelligence ramifications are.
  • Apr 27, 2009, 08:31 AM
    excon

    Hello again, El:

    We are a nation of laws and not men.

    Yes, I DO know better than the men you list... I know, because every time we've made law out of fear, we've been wrong.

    You're afraid. The policy we're speaking of here was born out of fear. The men you list are, or were afraid. I'm not. The Constitution has served us well for over 200 years, and I think it's good for another 200.

    excon

    PS> Your post DOES suggest that the Constitution WAS violated by somebody. Would that be the dufus in chief?? I think it would be.
  • Apr 27, 2009, 08:54 AM
    excon

    Hello again,

    I just want to make SURE that I've got your reasoning correctly:

    1) enhanced interrogation isn't torture, 2) besides that, it's lawful and Constitutional, 3) they deserve it, 4) torture works, 5) it was OK to torture because we told the Democrats, and finally, 6) OK we DID torture, and we DID break the law, but the Constitution isn't a suicide pact.

    Do I have it right?

    excon
  • Apr 27, 2009, 09:36 AM
    excon

    Hello again:

    Help me out here, righty's. Now I'm a real intelligence type guy. I actually worked in intelligence when I served. So I know a little about it...

    I can't figure out what intelligence distaster will unfold because Al Quaida knows what will happen to them if their caught... I'm having a real hard time with that. I can't believe that that information will do ANYTHING to embolden or strengthen their resolve, or do us harm in any way...

    Please, tell me what that information does to a hardened Al Quaida warrior, and how whatever it does makes us more susceptible to attack or endangers our troops.

    Now, I understand if they found out what our troop strength is, that would be bad. Or if they found out when we were going to attack them next, that would be bad...

    But, I don't understand how it's bad that they know we're going to use enhanced interrogation techniques on them if we catch them. Can you explain it to me in ways I, as a former intelligence officer can understand?

    If anything, it seems to me it would dissuade fighters from continuing.

    It also seems evident that it's a recruiting tool that has put us and our troops in harms way...

    You say no... But, if you were an Iraqi who was glad the US liberated him, as soon as you saw the pictures of Abu Grahib, you would have joined a resistance movement. Certainly, if you were a proud Iraqi, you would have. I would have. Steve, tom and the Wolverine would have. What makes you think an ordinary Iraqi won't do the same thing you would?

    excon
  • Apr 27, 2009, 09:37 AM
    ETWolverine
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again,

    I just want to make SURE that I've got your reasoning correctly:

    1) enhanced interrogation isn't torture,

    Correct

    Quote:

    2) besides that, it's lawful and Constitutional,
    Also correct.

    Quote:

    3) they deserve it,
    Incorrect. Whether they deserved it or not is irrelevant. They had information we needed, and they didn't want to share it. We needed that information in order to keep American citizens alive. Weighing the value of American lives against the civil rights of terrorists, the decision was made that American lives are more important than the civil rights of terrorists.

    Quote:

    4) torture works,
    It does. If it didn't work, the point would be moot. That is the ONLY reason for torture... the fact that it works and that it saves American lives. (Incidentally, that is also the only reason for animal testing for drugs is that it works and it saves lives. If it didn't work, there would be no reason to do it.)

    Quote:

    5) it was OK to torture because we told the Democrats,
    No, that is merely a statement on the hypocrisy of the left... they were all for it before they were against it. That's not a justification, just a statement of historical fact.

    Quote:

    and finally, 6) OK we DID torture, and we DID break the law, but the Constitution isn't a suicide pact.
    Slight mistake here. It wasn't torture, and the terrorists do not have Constitutional rights. But EVEN IF IT WAS TORTURE and EVEN IF THE TERRORISTS HAD CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, it still wouldn't matter, because the Constitution isn't a suicide pact.

    Quote:

    Do I have it right?

    excon
    Not very often.
  • Apr 27, 2009, 09:54 AM
    speechlesstx
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by excon View Post
    The issue IS, if you're the president, and you're about to make a big decision, you'd BETTER WHIP OUT YOUR POCKET CONSTITUTION!!!!!!!! If you don't, you go to jail. That's the law.

    Wasn't that the purpose of the memos, to run it by the OLC so they could advise the president? Wasn't that the purpose of briefing Congress so everyone was aware of the situation, to lay it all out on the table, provide opportunities for feedback and to raise objections? If there were none as Goss said, then if the law was broken than everyone involved was culpable - not just "the Dufus." You said so yourself I believe, so let's stop pretending this is all about Bush crimes.

    The nation cannot have an honest discussion about it if the Democrats that were in on this just want to play partisan politics with manufactured outrage, outright lies and self-righteous self-promotion to cover their own a$$es
  • Apr 27, 2009, 10:14 AM
    tomder55

    Abu Ghraib

    I noticed on Matthews that he kept on going back to the Abu Ghraib issue which really is different than CIA interrogation .

    No one suggests that what happened there was sanctioned. In fact investigations related to prisoner abuse by the military have resulted in 400 disciplinary actions including imprisonment, bad-conduct discharges, forfeiture of pay and other punitive actions.
  • Apr 30, 2009, 05:28 AM
    tomder55

    Another thing that is NOT true is that the CIA agents waterboarded KSM and Abu Zubaydah 266 times combined .They were waterboarded fewer than 15 times in all, according to the Red Cross, which has spoken to them.The large number the MSM ran with is the number of times water was poured on them, with each pour lasting only seconds.

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