 |
OK Synnen, it would be like you posting that image and me saying "You're an idiot." No, a sign from Christians or any other religion or group making a similar attack is also inappropriate. I think I've been quite fair about it, you just can't seem to bring yourself to acknowledge this particular sign is inappropriate.
Ex I would say that is your opinion of what the founders thought. I have studied the 1st amendment for a long time ,read a lot on it and have yet to find a consensus opinion about it. Judges are just as perplexed to find a consistent set of standards to apply.
My own opinion is that they wanted to avoid the excesses of Europe ,but were not absolutists either way. Almost all of them believed in a universal God (even Jefferson who was torn between atheism and his Episcopalian roots) .But even there varying positions were in play .Jefferson and Madison believed that the state should not support a particular church at all . Others, such as John Adams and Washington, believed it was entirely permissible for the state to financially support churches in a non-preferential way.
The one thing I think is universally agreed upon is that they did not want an established national church . However they added the free exercise clause in the same amendment for very real reasons. I do not find evidence that they wanted to restrict the free exercise of religion in the public square. In fact I'm almost sure of that . Why would they include that in the same amendment with an almost absolute free speech in public clause if they did not find the 2 related ?
Anyway ; this is a state matter. There was never a restriction of state religion at the local level that any of the founders supported . In fact in the 1800s many states had established churches .
An offensive commemoration is still state-sponsored offence.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
And what might I ask was overtly, expressly offensive about the nativity scene? Don't answer that, we'll just be back to square one. The difference between a harmless commemoration of an event and a display expressly telling people they're fools in writing is beyond obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Hello again, tom:Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Yes, indeed. Perplexion rules. Hence, this discussion... and, many before... and many to come if we don't find a solution...
And, I think it WAS found, when the wall of separation came into existence... Now, I know it doesn't SAY those words... And you should know that I'm personally appalled at adding words to the Constitution that weren't already there...
But, I'm looking for a SOLUTION to the problem, not a legal argument one way or the other.
The solution IS to keep the public square FREE from ANY religious material. That would just plain solve it, no if's and's or but's. Simple... Problem solved. Let's get on to more pressing matters.
The problem is with your Christianity and your thinking that YOU have the public square to yourself because most of you are Christians, and so were the founders... You seem to let THAT part take over from your ordinarily sensible part... Because you SEE the argument and you think the solution is for everybody else to be banned from the square BUT YOU.
You KNOW that's not going to work. YOU KNOW IT! If you allow YOUR message, shortly, there will be one from your local mosque telling you that Christians are infidels... And, you're going to have to KEEP that message there...
But, you don't see that, do you?? I don't know why.
excon
Too bad! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
I don't think the nativity is offensive. I don't think the sign is offensive. Someone on each side, however, thinks it is offensive. You say the nativity is a "harmless commemoration"; many people probably agree with you. The sign, on the other hand, I think is harmless; many people probably agree with me. The sign is an expression, an opinion - it says religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds. It's an opinion, that's all.
Why is it OK for the Christian group to offend the atheist group? Why are you dismissing the offense of the atheist group?
My public square message does not condemn anyone . If the Muslims want to make a positive case for their peaceful religion then go for it. I would not object. If Synn wanted a tribute to Gaia... no problem.Quote:
If you allow YOUR message, shortly, there will be one from your local mosque telling you that Christians are infidels... And, you're going to have to KEEP that message there...
Why do you guys keep asking me why I dismiss the offense to the atheists? I never dismissed it, in fact in this response to you I said "I don't deny it may offend some," so can we all please stop suggesting things about me that aren't there? I can't explain it any clearer than I have already Jillian, the atheist sign is openly, directly, expressly, clearly hostile. The nativity scene is not. I've acknowledged atheist's rights, that the nativity scene offends some, and said if the situation were reversed it would be equally wrong, so there's nothing more for me to add... unless someone again attributes something to me that doesn't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Use the child test (of reading age) to determine the appropriateness of a display.
If a child sees a nativity scene for the first time they will see a bunch of people, a baby, and some animals. There is no message to either inspire or to infect the child's mind. If the child should ask their parents what it is, the parents can choose to either explain it fully from a Christian point of view, or say that it's a symbol of myth, etc. The scene itself
has no meaning unless it is explained, researched or asked about either by children or adults. It is not offensive in any way unless you choose for it to be offensive by you, formed by your own opinion; not the display itself.
The sign on the other hand incorporates an opinion; an opinion that some parents do not want their child exposed to and have no way to shield them since the child can read it themselves.
While as a taxpayer I don't mind symbols of the season, nativity scenes, menora's, Santa Claus, Christmas trees adorning public areas. I don't want any interest promoting it's opinion in these public areas.
If the "Celebraters of the Winter Solctice" want to display a symbol on public property, I have no problem with it, but keep your opinion to youself; if I want to know more I will research it myself.
I know someone will eventually say by the "child test standard" it would be appropriate to display a Swastika in a public place. No it wouldn't, society/community has standards which it can impose. Such as choosing not to display pornographic material, etc.
Would the people who provided the sign past such a test, I doubt it because of if the sentence "religion hardens hearts, and enslaves minds". If that is their goal and at the core of their movement rather than a more moderate expression like "we are alone on this world and the choices we make can make us a better place, so lets celebrate this Winter Solctice with love and kindness towards each other"; then I doubt the community would approve a symbol from them in a public place based on the "religion hardens hearts and ensalves minds" core belief as it is devisive; but would approve a symbol if they used a non-devisive expression of their belief like the one I proposed above.
Can you imagine doing this to a muslim holiday? I just don't get it. This is OUR celebration of OUR Lord's birth. Why in the WORLD do atheists even care? They don't have to celebrate it. I am SICK to death of being polically correct. It is disrespect to the Christian Faith and I for one am HIGHLY offended. What is it to an atheist? Geesh.
What it is to an aethist is what it would be to you if our country became prodominately Muslim and the majority only approved of Muslim displays in public places and found your Christian displays an attack on Islam.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
What is at stake here is higher than your God, my God, or no God; it's the principle of Freedom of Religion even if that Religion is Atheism. Without that freedom, the majority wins and all other faiths are oppressed. It's great while your in the majority, but it's life threatening when your in the minority.
It's about upholding a principle that allows everyone to celebrate their own faith, and protects it through that freedom. To restrict even one faith opens the door for restricting your own.
You call it political correctness, I call it freedom.
Texas,
Well you can call it freedom if you like. I call it disrespect to MY FAITH. As far as I am concerned... we are living in a POST Christian nation anyway. If you don't like Christmas don't celebrate it... but don't disrespect it either.. that isn't freedom.. it is RUDE.
As far as the part of the sign which said that "Religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds" I do agree it was rude, offensive and should not have been displayed on public property.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
However, it did not attack your faith in particular; and might I remind you that the season is celebrated by Jewish people as well; not just Christian's. Furthermore, Christmas has long lost it's Christian only meaning. I loved Christmas growing up, it meant forgiveness, kindness, thinking about others; but not once did I ever know it was Christian, it was Santa, family, and giving.
It no longer belongs just to Christian's, and it's been argued that it was never truly Christian in origin either; it started as a pagan celebration.
So plenty of people choose to celebrate it in different ways, and what it means to people differs dramatically and all should be free to celebrate the season in anyway they see fit; provided it doesn't 'directly' insult anyone else's belief of what it is and stands for.
That is Freedom.
Texas,
Jewish people celebrate something other than the birth of Christ. And guess what, they haven't tried to disrespect the Christian Holiday. This is a Christian Holiday... DEAL WITH IT. You want to celebrate something? GREAT... pick another day and GO FOR IT. . It belongs to OUR faith, our savior, HIS BIRTH. You don't Like Jesus? You don't believe in him? FINE. Ain't no one making you.
Hello again, T:
The issue here isn't Christianity, Christmas, atheists, or ANYTHING religious, actually.
I think Christmas is great. When we were kids, we could still have a Christmas play every year. I loved playing Jesus... I'm a supporter of Christmas, the holiday and I'm respectful of it's religious implications, and of the people who believe in them.
The issue HERE is whether the state should support one religion over another or should it support any of them.
Putting a manger in a state building IS a message FROM the state, just like Christmas ornaments in your front yard deliver a message from you. It's FINE for you. It ISN'T fine for the state.
excon
Really, Christmas belongs to you; Christian's? That is where you are mistaken. No where does Santa tell kids that it's a Christian holiday; and in my house we had a Christmas tree, family dinners, love; but it was not a celebration of Christ. Did I know it represented the day Christ was born, yes; but more as a history of how it came about as well as the pagan celebrations that it was also born from.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
How dare you call it your holiday! How dare you dismiss a family celebration that I have been a part of for over 50 years. What gives you the arrogance to call it your own!
It's not even in the bible, it's not even God sanctioned as it were, it's origins are pagan celebrations and the state gives everyone a holiday, not just Christian's.
For you I imagine it's a celebration of Christ's birth, for millions of other American's it something else entirely but just as much theirs as it is yours.
I imagine in your world, only Christian's would be allowed to celebration Christmas; would the rest of us have to roast like the chestnuts if we committed heresy by celebrating our version of Christmas?
For a Christian you would think you would want everyone to celebrate Christmas rather than keep it Christian so as to help bring others to Christ; but it doesn't sound to Christ like for you to be divisive.
I know this for sure I wouldn't want YOU in charge of Christmas even if I were a Christian.
Lol... THE HECK with Christmas.. I'd just like to be in charge of YOU:p... LOL. Hey stop trying to imagine my world. I don't care if you celebrate it as Christ birth or not... just don't disrespect it. That is ALL I'm asking.Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasParent
On that point, we can agree :DQuote:
Originally Posted by classyT
OH GOOD GOSH! You are kidding right? We got people starving in the world but we are going to argue our rights if we put Jesus in a manger on a state building lawn. See, You aren't even upset about that.. you just are picking a fight. I know your type mister... sides Christmas IS fun just like you remember it as a kid. AND I might add.. this wouldn't even have been an issue back in those days but now we can't offend anyone. UGH! We really are a post Christian nation and thin skinned to boot! Sad.. sad indeedyQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
IF that is all this is about then no one should be able to erect anything and should keep it in your own home. I think that if Christians want to show what they want, then others should be allowed too. BUT messages like that signs make me want to say screw it for everyone...Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
If they still do allow it after this year, then a rule should be applied... "dont show respect then don't erect anything." Common sense really, but who uses that anymore? Not many as far as I am concerned.
You say you aren't dismissing the offense of others, but you are arguing that the nativity is harmless, regardless of the fact that is offends people, yet the sign isn't harmless because offends people. There are those out there who see the nativity as "openly, directly, expressly, [and] clearly hostile". You're teetering on the edge of a double standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by speechlesstx
You know lights, ornaments, wreaths, garland, etc. look great this time of year. And frankly most public spaces could use the facelift once a year, most public places are drab and cold looking.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I understand your point, and I agree; but I also know that somewhere in law, but mostly in my heart it's not wrong to display lights, garland, wreaths and ornaments. They as symbols don't speak to anyone in particular; Christians will say they they represent their Christmas, I will say they represent winter and my non-religious view of the Christmas season, and I don't think even the Jews have been at particular odds with non-Christian representations of the season.
If the majority want non-offensive season appropriate decorations in our public places I am all for it, they look great.
As for lights and ornaments in my yard; what message would that be? How could you determine what my message is?
I've posted earlier about my view on the nativity scene and the sign, I won't repeat it here; but I wanted to add, that I don't mind a few of my tax dollars at work to beautify our public spaces during the "Winter Solictice" season ;)
Agreed, but that sign has no beauty in it what so ever;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasParent
Who are those who find the nativity scene hostile? What do they find hostile about it? Read my earlier post about the CHILD TEST.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
There is nothing hostile about a few people gathered around a baby and having a few farm animals thrown in to boot. On the surface it would look like to a child a family in a barn; because that is all it is until you assign your own prejudices to it; either positive or negative. Is that the fault of the scene itself, no. It delivers no message on it's own, you have to have learned your hostility from somewhere else.
As for the "sign" in question, it did display a hostile opinion towards another belief; and hence is inappropriate for display in a publicly funded place.
That is the difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
So, Ex, are you implying that atheism is a religion?
g&p
Your "child's test" fails in your very own post - the swastica. If society/community has standards which it can impose, why are those imposed on some but not all?Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasParent
And if Christians would be, in your opinion, more receptive to a less-aggressive sign, why did this statement: Why believe in a God? Just be good for goodness sake. which appeared on the side of busses in DC cause an uproar? Different topic - just food for thought.
The group which put the sign up. Read the link I posted back on page 4, post #31.Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasParent
Pardon me, but nothing is being done to a holiday, it's a sign going up in the month of December. It is the ultimate sign of arrogance for you to claim the month of December as "yours".Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
And, for your educating pleasure:
December 6 - December 9, 2008
Hajj (Annual Pilgrimage to Mecca)
The Hajj, or annual pilgrimage to Mecca, consists of several ceremonies meant to symbolize the essential concepts of the Islamic faith, such as submission, brotherhood, and unity, and to commemorate the trials of the Prophet Abraham and his family. Required once in a Muslim’s lifetime, over two million Muslims perform the pilgrimage annually.
December 8, 2008
Eid-ul-Adha (Festival of the Sacrifice)
Holiday occurring on the third day of the Hajj, lasting four days. It commemorates the Prophet Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, who was replaced by a lamb.
December 29, 2008
Islamic New Year (1430 A.H.*)
Marks the beginning of a New Year in the Islamic calendar. There are an estimated 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, making Muslims one of the world's largest religious group in the United States. There are an estimated 6-8 million Muslims in America, making Muslims the second largest religious group in the United States. While the majority of American Muslims were born in this country, they are from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds: African-American, South Asian, Arab, African, Persian, and the remaining are European, Southeast Asian and Turkish.
That is okay with me.
The nativity scene does not say in writing - you non Christians believe in superstition and myth that hardens the heart and enslaves the mind.:confused:
Just as long as my fellow Muslims don't expect me to hold to the sacrifices made during the month of Ramadan. They are tougher than me
;)
g&p
Hello again, Tex:Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasParent
Well, I could determine that you're a Christian person who celebrates the birth of Christ. I could be wrong, of course. However, I think my reading of the signs would be accurate. It's you who wishes to make it secular (which, of course, is fine with me). To wit:
If you saw a menorah in my window, what would you determine from that? I'll bet you'd be right.Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasParent
excon
Hello in:Quote:
Originally Posted by inthebox
What? You have to be a religion to post a sign in the Capitol? I didn't know that.
excon
Alas, I know the Swastika DOES past the "child's test" because a child wouldn't know what it meant until someone told them; but for those who do know what it represents it is so offensive that the uproar would be even more than what is taking place over the sign. Then who becomes the judge of what is appropriate and what is not. Unfortunately, I guess EXCON is right, the state should not be in the position to judge what is appropriate or not and should not display anything at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Shame really; I like pretty. Can we agree that red and green are not offensive to anyone and can the State display red and green banners this time of year? Is pine garland offensive to anyone? Can we have a national referendum on what is appropriate during this time of year?
I vote for green, because there is too little of it in winter!
Sigh.
Well, I DO pardon you Jill. And I never claimed the month of December as MINE. The last time I checked... Christmas was ONE day... December 25. I said CHRISTMAS was about CHRIST and it was a CHRISTIAN Holiday. I don't care who wants to celebrate what in December... but I don't like when other Organizations want to disrespect OUR CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY with things that demean our FAITH. You want to call that arrogance?. Again, I submit to you if it wasn't about Christianity, you wouldn't have an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
You're forgetting the swastika is a religious symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism... and more. The Nazis adopted it and now it is associated with them alone, but on it's own (and depending on the direction it faces), really, it shouldn't be an offensive symbol. You're also using a child ignorant of history but capable of understanding the words on the atheist's sign and the intended meaning behind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasParent
I agree - keep it all out. It's impossible to not offend someone with something; the best course of action is to take it all down and keep it all down.Quote:
Then who becomes the judge of what is appropriate and what is not. Unfortunately, I guess EXCON is right, the state should not be in the position to judge what is appropriate or not and should not display anything at all.
Red and green... they don't offend me, but the origins of why they are Christmas colors is significant. Google it, you'll see several histories indicating how the colors relate to Christianity. I think you're safe with pine and garland, since pine trees keep their look for the winter... but... then you get into Christmas trees... How about snowflakes? Snowmen? Peppermint candies? Holly leaves?Quote:
Shame really; I like pretty. Can we agree that red and green are not offensive to anyone and can the State display red and green banners this time of year? Is pine garland offensive to anyone? Can we have a national referendum on what is appropriate during this time of year?
I vote for green, because there is too little of it in winter!
Sigh.
Where does the atheist sign attack Christmas? I read it and it says nothing about Christmas, or even specifically Christians. It says religion. It's not attacking "your holiday". No one is arguing Christmas is a Christian holiday.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
And you DID claim the month of December as "yours" when you dared the atheists to do this "to" a muslim holiday, and when you were dismissive of the Jewish celebrations during the month.
I have no idea what you mean by this.Quote:
Again, I submit to you if it was about Christianity, you wouldn't have an issue.
Are we sufficiently off topic yet? I think so. If you want to continue, feel free to PM me.
Jill,
It says there is NO GOD. Christmas celebrates the BIRTH of the Lord Jesus Christ who is in fact GOD! It also states that religion ENSLAVES minds. It is right beside the display of the nativity scene!! Naah that's not an attack... I'm just being thin skinned. Pick a muslim Holiday and put THAT sign up RIGHT beside something sacred to them. See what happens. That doesn't mean I think December belongs to the Christians.. I think what I am saying is... Christians are sick of having their faith disrespected. By the way, I LOVE the Jewish Holidays and feasts... I was never dismissive.
I just want to extend a Happy Festivus to everyone !
We've already begun the airing of grievances, now it's time for feats of strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
YOUR celebration of YOUR lord's birth just HAPPENS to fall on or around the date of a major holiday for at LEAST 4 religions.Quote:
Originally Posted by classyT
It's not ALL yours, and *I* am sick to death of the "majority rule" attitude when it comes to displays and celebrations.
Either ALL get to, or NONE get to---take your pick.
As far as the swastika being compared to pornography--that's a bit out of line. Until the Nazis went overboard with it, the swastika was a symbol used in several major Eastern religions, and has been known to appear in several Native American traditions as well. So frankly--if a Hindu wanted to put up a swastika, you couldn't stop them, BECAUSE it is a religious symbol. Equating that to a picture of two people attempting to procreate isn't exactly the same thing, hmmm? And again, if a child of reading age had to look at a symbol and see a geometric pattern or a picture of the nativity---isn't it STILL up to the parents to choose how to discuss it with their child.
And frankly, really--a good religious symbol to Gaia COULD be one of those little stylized naked women. Is nakedness out too? Or just outright pornography?
I GET the idea of standards. I just want to know WHOSE standards they should be.
I believe in a Creator, you know. It's a goddess/god thing, but it's still a religion. I haven't seen any Jews protesting or stealing the sign. Nor have I seen Muslims all up in arms about it. Don't think there are any Hindus screaming "hate", or Buddhists protesting because their religion has been slandered.
Nope---it seems to be only Christians that have a problem with it.
*I* am not offended by that sign. I'm also not personally offended by the nativity. The fact that the two of them are near each other isn't that either one is attacking the other. That just happens to be the space that some bureaucrat assigned each of them. When the menorrah goes up, I'm thinking it's going to be in the same general area as those other two displays.
What DOES offend me is the attitude that ONE belief can be put up in the capitol building and another cannot. It DOES offend me that people think ONE of those displays is offensive and the other is not. Either they both are, or neither are, in my opinion.
For the umpteenth time, one "belief" says "to commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ, which is celebrated by Christians around the world." The other says religious people are idiots. There are 4 displays in play here, all required by the settlement (pdf) to be "consistent with the intent and decorum of the seat of state government and the appropriate, non-disruptive use of public facilities."Quote:
Originally Posted by Synnen
A "Holiday Tree"
A Menorah
A nativity Scene
A sign saying there is no God and religion "enslaves minds"
Lets' boil it down to a little Sesame Street game:
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:32 PM. |