Yup we are polar opposites on this issue . Me ;I would abolish the Dept. of Education... maybe there is where we could find the money. Education until recently(1979) ,as a matter of federalism ,was a State and local issue and not the perusal of the national government..

But since you are concerned about the gifted students who can't afford it here is a little known secret. Brown ,Stanford, Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth ;all top of the line universities ;offer free tuition to students who have the academic credentials whose parents incomes are less than $100,000. Many states already offer college education in their State run colleges for those who qualify. There are scholarships and grants galore. What we are really talking about here is the ability of the marginal student to get a free education. The smart ones are already getting taken care of .

Perhaps areas where are views are different but still an enjoyable and healthy discussion.:)

Yes, I am aware of those schoarships available for outstanding scholars. I wouldn't necessary call the remainder of the students marginal, perhaps, average and/or above average.

The "smart" ones... ugh. I think sometimes intellegence can be overated. If anything, it's a gift and one that should be used and shared, but not to boast. Just a general statement on my thoughts of smart versus not.

I am with you as far as the Educational system. It is horrid in some areas, outstanding in others, and getting by in the remainder.

Hit the delete button on the whole thing, revamp it. Make it outstanding in all areas and maybe it would produce more "smart" students.

Obama trying to provide a college education for our youth is money better spent, but some of the reasoning here misunderstands as if it would be mandated. That's not what Obama was suggesting, nor the case. The other part of the equation, that seems to be missed, is that not everyone is college material. Some youth simply learn skills better fit for trade industry: mechanic, welder, carpenter, plumber, ac/heat, etc...

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Obama trying to provide College education for our youth is money better spent, but some of the reasoning here misunderstands as if it would be mandated. That's not what Obama was suggesting, nor the case. The other part of the equation, that seems to be missed, is that not everyone is College material. Some youth simply have skills better fit for trade industry, mechanic, welder, carpenter, plumber, ac/heat, etc...

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Exactly! And those children should also be able to pursue their skilled area.
My comments are not refective as to what Barack is proposing. I am just sharing my thoughts on the topic.


I would like to see signicant help to all children for a higher education as well as a better education system across the board.

Our military taken care of, while in service and post service. (shouldn't be too much to ask)

And not to have our elderly pick which med they can afford that month. (this area is a disgrace on our part)

Don't think I'm asking too much. (The higher education would be the last of the 3 - but still is on my list)

What percentage of your income are you willing to give in taxes for your wish list ? When Social Security was conceived there were 8 workers supportind a retiree. Now I think the ration is getting close to 2 workers per one retiree. That system alone is going to implode shortly . Medicare has not even been considered ,but again ;given the demographics the system will soon topple . We just added a Federal entitlement for senior's drugs without any consideration as to how it will be paid for . No Child Left Behind is a massive new national government outlay that every critic says is underfunded.
Now Hillary and Obama are acting like the Joker in the Batman movie throwing money out the car yelling "who do you trust? " . Free College,free health care .etc. Don't tell me the rich will pay for it. There aren't enough rich people to fund the candy store they are setting up.

I'm not a group hug person, but this has been a nice thread that's stayed on track and not gotten bogged down with noise or dumb reddies. How it should be here.

all for targeting kids who are in need positions... and that's not always easy to do, such as the case of the student whose parents make too much money but are unwilling to take on debt themselves. My financial burden will be 2x that what my daughter will have coming out of college. Shell pay back loans at about $120/mo at first, and her debt will last about 10 years. I'm OK with that. We had the means (mostly the financial planning) to do it, went without some things, and made it work.

I want the best students to get opportunity first. We are lagging as a nation versus the world in many areas... and it isn't that our univ system is bad. Many foreign students come to the US for training in the hard sciences, for ex, as the education is good. So... my first goal is to make sure good students get earned opportunity.

I also value what a college ed can mean for students who are not as strong, but willing to work, and clearly in need financially... not getting the scholarships or other funding for academics. One of my "fav" students was a young man, a minority who was the first in his fam to college, lower class, struggled to get through some tought classes, and got the degree with mediocre grades. He didn't go on to do awesome research. He took a sales job for a chemical supplier. Last time I saw him, he was a happy, successful, grateful man.

so I'm not just about top kids get free rides... and I'm not about just letting those who want an ed to have one for free. That will get abused and place all the financial burdens on colleges that I've already mentioned.

my only concern with some merit system is its more red tape and opportunity for sticky hands... but some med schools, for ex, give "free tuition" for students that give a year for a year in rural communities or other regions of dire need... I don't know how that is run... I think the regions sponsor it... well... those who remember "northern exposure"... that's the idea.

Right now I pay $4,000.00 just for school tax.

I think what we contribute currently, if used appropraiately should cover my wish list.

I am willing to pay more taxes for my wish list ESPECIALLY for our elderly. Even with the waste that goes on currently. However, there needs to be some serious movement into looking into the waste.

Tom, I'm telling you, if we got a bin and put all the funding in it that was wasted, it would cover at least 2 of my 3 wishes.

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Obama trying to provide a college education for our youth is money better spent, but some of the reasoning here misunderstands as if it would be mandated. That's not what Obama was suggesting, nor the case....

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Are you suggesting that Obama is running for president by making suggestions?

[QUOTE=kp2171]
one of my "fav" students was a young man, a minority who was the first in his fam to college, lower class, struggled to get through some tought classes, and got the degree with mediocre grades. he didnt go on to do awesome research. he took a sales job for a chemical supplier. last time i saw him, he was a happy, successful, grateful man.

QUOTE]

I agree KP it is a nice thread. This is how knowledge is acquired and shared and I am grateful for it.

The young man above is one of the ones I would like to reach (The one that KP share with us. There is this waitress, where hubby and I dine, who is brilliant. I am trying to get her placed in a company, but of course, they look at her resume, and first they go to the education part, which she is weak on by today standards, but I tell you what, she is a perfect fit for this company and would make the company shine, as well as herself.

Hello again:

Me and my distinctions... The first is the idea; should we educate our children. The second is the process.

I don't disagree with any of you in terms of the process. It's broken - has been for a long time. We're spending more and getting dumber.

This thread, however, has primarily been about the process - how to pay for it, the schools suck, the kids are there for a free ride, they're too damn liberal... I don't know. Complaints abound.

But, because the process is broken doesn't mean it has to stay that way. It doesn't mean that it can't be fixed. It doesn't mean that we should give up. You guys sound like a bunch of naysayers... You guys are stuck talking about the process.

Educating our children is smart. It's something we SHOULD do. It's a GOOD thing. Tom is the only one who pointed out a reason why it might not be good. There'll be nobody around to cook his burgers.

All Obama is doing is talking about the possibilities. We like hearing about what we CAN do, rather than what we can't.

excon

I'm a process person.

If a company makes wishful decisions without the financial backing and proper infrastructure/systems, it is toast.

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Originally Posted by excon

But, because the process is broken doesn't mean it has to stay that way. It doesn't mean that it can't be fixed. It doesn't mean that we should give up. .
Educating our children is smart. It's something we SHOULD do. It's a GOOD thing.
excon

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And there it is... If it's broke, we can't turn our back nor should we.

It's like when someone says, "But we've always done it that way"... Well this way isn't working and to slam the door is just wrong.

There are soooooooooooooooo many areas that could use a little slenderizing and that funding could go right to educating our children. How could that possibly be a bad thing.

Got news for those against it, if all children are not giving the most opportunities to succeed, to obtain health insurance, to make do for themselves, guess what, we all will end up paying anyway.

Let's fund it upfront for a positive result instead of paying for the negative ramifications later.

Plus... it just isn't right not to make sure each child gets to meet his or her potential. What we have to make sure some stay down, so the "menial" jobs are filled.

I got news for all of you, at this stage, I welcome scrubbing floors. The office environment, after so many years, can get to you.

Give me the scrub brush and bucket - and give all children an opportunity to higher education.

Hello again:

Frankly, I don't think we need to spend a nickel more. We're spending plenty. We just need to get more bang for our buck.

I'm not going to start pointing fingers. We've been doing that for 40 years. There's enough blame across the political spectrum to go around. I don't know how to fix it. I just know that it CAN be fixed.

Ok, I do know how to fix it. For starters, let's in one fell swoop, eliminate the Education Department and the NEA.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

Frankly, I don't think we need to spend a nickel more. We're spending plenty. We just need to get more bang for our buck.

I'm not going to start pointing fingers. We've been doing that for 40 years. There's enough blame across the political spectrum to go around. I dunno how to fix it. I just know that it CAN be fixed.

Ok, I do know how to fix it. For starters, let's in one fell swoop, eliminate the Education Department and the NEA.

excon

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Exactly.

We spend tons in areas already that is wasted. We need to reroute funds and allocate for issues such as this.

One way would be to penalize agencies who "dump" money at the end of the FY just so not to loose it and receive less.

We should reward agencies for coming under budget for that FY. This way the funding that is traditionally dumped, could fund this type of a Program as well as others.

It can be done - just like making sure our elderly have the meds they need... Sorry, that can be done as well.

Since when are we so incompetent that we can't fix problems. That's basically what we are saying.

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For starters, let's in one fell swoop, eliminate the Education Department and the NEA.

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That would be a great 1st start. But you know the union will not go quitely .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

That would be a great 1st start. But you know the union will not go quitely .

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Hello again, tom:

Therein, lies the bigger problem - hence the round robin nature of the post.

Tom is correctamundo about the bureaucracy and the union. I'm speaking about THE bureaucracy and THE union - the whole kit and caboodle... Come to think about it, bureaucrats ARE in a UNION.

Because of the UNION, bureaucrats can't be fired. That includes the State Department, the CIA, the Education Department. NO president can make a dent unless we do something about entrenched bureaucrats and their union.

You better slow me down or my Ron Paul is coming out.

excon

I think the current state of the Education Department is not the place to start. Start at the beginning. Government agencies today are suffering due to insufficient funding allocations. To look and try to fix the problem in the middle, when fix it entirely.

Start with, where is the funding coming from, where is it spent, why is it spent that way and appropriate accordinlgy to need and have accountability.

Having adequate funding allocations is an important factor in having an Agency perform it's mission successfully.

Hello again, All:

We educated our children better BEFORE there WAS a Department of Education. I'm really not sure what they do, but I'm really sure we could do without 'em. Frankly, I think they're the problem, not the solution.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, All:

We educated our children better BEFORE there WAS a Department of Education. I'm really not sure what they do, but I'm really sure we could do without 'em. Frankly, I think they're the problem, not the solution.

excon

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Def. contribute to the problem. Hugely.

Allheart it certainly is easy to say that things are undefunded but that is not the reality . There is plenty of money already being spent .Our kids should be Einsteins if that was the answer. Government is not the solution . I like when companies like Microsoft sponsor projects in a school like getting them computers in the rooms in return for naming the school Bill Gates elementary school . That is where we should focus our efforts ;convincing the private sector to sponsor scholarships and educational upgrades. The government could play a role in that but they are really a poor choice when it comes to managing almost anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Obama trying to provide a college education for our youth is money better spent, but some of the reasoning here misunderstands as if it would be mandated. That's not what Obama was suggesting, nor the case. The other part of the equation, that seems to be missed, is that not everyone is college material. Some youth simply learn skills better fit for trade industry: mechanic, welder, carpenter, plumber, ac/heat, etc...

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Exactly, that is the first issue. Not everyone is college material. Just another 2 years to screw off. Trade schools serve some folks much better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Allheart it certainly is easy to say that things are undefunded but that is not the reality . There is plenty of money already being spent .Our kids should be Einsteins if that was the answer. Government is not the solution . I like when companies like Microsoft sponsor projects in a school like getting them computers in the rooms in return for naming the school Bill Gates elementary school . That is where we should focus our efforts ;convincing the private sector to sponsor scholarships and educational upgrades. The government could play a role in that but they are really a poor choice when it comes to managing almost anything.

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That is very true Tom. I know certain agencies when funded, the total looks large, but then there are restrictions on where within that agency funding can be spent. So, one area within the agency say... labor... is underfunded but supplies, is grossly over funded and you can not swap out. Not sure if that is how it works at DOE.

LOVE your plan though with the Private Sector. LOVE IT!! So, why can't we do that?

Hello again, All:

My Ron Paul side says that you're giving too much faith to the bureaucrats. I suppose it's equally true that my cynicism is unfounded too... But, nahhhh.

Due to your big heart, you think that the people working at the Department of Education are working for the betterment of the schools.

I'm sure that when bright young people are hired, that's what they think too. But, after a while they find that bureaucrats aren't really in it for the betterment of the schools, they're in it for the betterment of themselves, to expand their power, and increase their budget.

They should actually find a real job. I hear McDonalds is hiring.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, All:

My Ron Paul side says that you're giving too much faith to the bureaucrats. I suppose it's equally true that my cynicism is unfounded too..... But, nahhhh.

Due to your big heart, you think that the people working at the Department of Education are working for the betterment of the schools.

I'm sure that when bright young people are hired, that's what they think too. But, after a while they find that bureaucrats aren't really in it for the betterment of the schools, they're in it for the betterment of themselves, to expand their power, and increase their budget.

They should actually find a real job. I hear McDonalds is hiring.

excon

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Great just what we need more burger flippers :D

I was a burger flipper and a taco fryer... and even a french fryer... and all at the same time. Multi-talented I think they call it :)

I believe the Department of Education calls that multitasking.

I'm getting hungry

Tom you say free education free health service like it is a bad thing here in the uk we have both you say it like it's a bad thing it works pretty well over here.
Yeah our government has its problems like yours but we have it and it works fine.

We have a legislation called every child matters and the main points are below without free nhs and schooling these may not be achieved.

* Be healthy
* Stay safe
* Enjoy and achieve through learning
* Make a positive contribution to society
* Achieve economic well-being

Nicki-

Higher education such as university (the equivalent of college in America) is not free in the UK*. I have a huge debt to prove this. Yes it is much more heavily subsidised than in America and for that I a truly grateful but free it is not.

*with the exception of Scotland which has a different system

Sorry did not realise they were different thought college was college

I work with a lot of americans. Sometimes it's like we speak different languages. It's so funny I'll say something then I just get a blank stare. Or we'll spend half a conversation talking about two completely separate things. :D

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Originally Posted by George_1950

Are you suggesting that Obama is running for president by making suggestions?

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Would that be in contrast to Dubya that suggested under his guided economics that we would be country of people known as the "haves and have mores." Maybe GW's inference implied "recession." :)

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

Would that be in contrast to Dubya that suggested under his guided economics that we would be country of people known as the "haves and have mores." Maybe he was just suggesting that would be more "recession." :)

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It would be in contrast to W who said he would cut taxes fairly for everyone, and he did. Promise made, promise delivered, in contrast to Dems who are too willing to lie and conceal their economics, other than to mask their program in class warfare.

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Originally Posted by George_1950

It would be in contrast to W who said he would cut taxes fairly for everyone, and he did.

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But oh what else he did -- created an unnecessary debt that may take generations to pay off.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But oh what else he did -- created an unnecessary debt that may take generations to pay off.

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He helped rack up a 9,000,000,000 monthly spenditure in Iraq.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again:

Frankly, I don't think we need to spend a nickel more. We're spending plenty. We just need to get more bang for our buck.

I'm not going to start pointing fingers. We've been doing that for 40 years. There's enough blame across the political spectrum to go around. I dunno how to fix it. I just know that it CAN be fixed.

Ok, I do know how to fix it. For starters, let's in one fell swoop, eliminate the Education Department and the NEA.

excon

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Wonders never cease! For the second time, I agree with you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by George_1950

It would be in contrast to W who said he would cut taxes fairly for everyone, and he did. Promise made, promise delivered, in contrast to Dems who are too willing to lie and conceal their economics, other than to mask their program in class warfare.

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So the Democrats speaking of spenditures on our children, our future generations, concerning education, is somehow less important than Dubya's failed economics, that by the way he delivered on. Recession, record foreclosures and bankruptcies, and gas prices escalating (although we found out this week he was unaware of gas possibly hitting $4 a gallon).

Shabbos starts soon. I enjoyed the topic and reading the various views. Everyone have a great evening, Republicans, Democrats, and Independents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

But oh what else he did -- created an unnecessary debt that may take generations to pay off.

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You should be fair with responsibility for the budget deficits; the president neither taxes nor appropriates. If you wish to argue that W should have been tougher on Congress, you have a lot of company. He also promised to bring a new tone to the nation's capitol and he tried; I believe that is why he didn't get into rancorous arguments over the budget (you know: bickering?? ), which everyone, according to the liberal media, detests. He did his part and gets no thanks for it. There are lots and lots of critics; I call them, people riding in the wagon; but not many who want to get out and pull the wagon. W will be judged more responsibly and favorably in future years; he has been a worker, not a loafer or philanderer.

I agree. Bad idea indeed.