Both can be absolutely true. An historical account can be used in an allegorical manner. There is no contradiction there at all. Gal. 4:24 is the perfect example of that where it begins, "This is allegorically speaking."

Now if you claim the account is fictional while I claim it is historically factual, then both cannot be true. Our beliefs contradict, but not the truth. One of us would be right and the other wrong in that case. To claim, as you seem to, that both are true since, after all, we believe it to be so would be sheer silliness.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

To claim, as you seem to, that both are true since, after all, we believe it to be so would be sheer silliness.

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I didn't claim nuttin' -- just wondering how far you'd go in defining "what is truth?"

I guess now you know.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I didn't claim nuttin' -- just wondering how far you'd go in defining "what is truth?"

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I think we can agree that truth is absolute (something can't be true and not true, so when a thing is true, it's always true (absolute), but the deeper question is how is the truth determined? "What is truth", said Pilate, meaning how do we know what it is.

For some things, it can be done. Science, for example. The charge of "relativism" of truth seems to revolve around deciding the morality of an action. How can a moral truth be determined? Religion? Reason? Consensus?

I don't know whether it has anything to do with absolute or relative truth, but time - which ordinary observation tells us is absolute - is actually relative.

Pilate did not ask Jesus what is truth . He was questioning himself. He did not wait for an answer . He went out to the mob to put his finger into the wind like a typical politician to find out what the mob thought was the truth . Then he washed his hands of the problem .To Pilate truth was absolutely relative .

It's hard to know what Pilate meant by his statement. It was perhaps meant sarcastically, but in any event was a response to the claims of Jesus.

"Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice." Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them, “I find no guilt in Him."

When Jesus said he came to testify to the truth, then plainly truth must exist. The truth he testified to (proclaimed) was, I think it's safe to say, a moral truth, and so a set of moral absolutes.

Earlier Athos said, "Apparently, Jesus found no fault in Pilate's question clearly implying truth is not the same for all. I.e., relative." But now he says, "I think we can agree that truth is absolute (something can't be true and not true, so when a thing is true, it's always true (absolute)."

OK.

Lee Zeldin lost his race to be NY Guv. But his campaign had coat tails . NY added 4 Congressional seat to the Repubs .... this will put the Repubs in the majority in the House.

The NY Dems have only themselves to blame . They put out a gerrymandered redistricting map so outrageous that the highest court in the state ;the court of appeals smacked it down and redrew the map.

Say goodby to Rep. Sean Patrick Maloney the chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. He lost his seat in one of the new districts . btw he took a parting shot at All Out Crazy for her lack of participation in helping the Dems in NY .
"The last time I ran into A.O.C., we were beating her endorsed candidate two to one in a primary, and I didn’t see her one minute of these midterms helping our House majority. So, I’m not sure what kind of advice she has, but I’m sure she’ll be generous with it,"

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6. Trump opened fire on DeSantis this week (Ron DeSanctimonious) which surprised me. I would think it makes it much more likely that DeSantis will run.

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he continues this line of attack and has added Va Guv Glenn Yougkin in his cross hairs calling him "Young Kin" saying the name sounds Chinese .

So we know he sees these Guvs as the biggest threat to him for 2024.

Apparently he is also blaming Melania Trump for his decision to endorse Dr Oz. ;and Sean Hannity for giving him other bad advice on candidate endorsements . He later apologized to both.

He is being advised by his inner circle to delay his planned Nov 14 announcement by people concerned he could be a drag on Hershel Walker's chances in the GA run off.

Illinois Repubs are blaming Trump for their loss. That is a stretch in my view. The state is run the by the corrupt Chi town machine. They say he was a turn off for the burbs . They may have a point.

Chris Christie and Paul Ryan are calling out Trump too blaming him for the GOP poor showing .

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he continues this line of attack and has added Va Guv Glenn Yougkin in his cross hairs calling him "Young Kin" saying the name sounds Chinese .

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One of the things I really dislike about Trump. He has never learned to control his mouth.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Pilate did not ask Jesus what is truth . He was questioning himself. He did not wait for an answer . He went out to the mob to put his finger into the wind like a typical politician to find out what the mob thought was the truth . Then he washed his hands of the problem .To Pilate truth was absolutely relative .

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You're reading way too much into the story. You have no idea what Pilate thought about truth. In fact, he is reported to have asked a very simple question - What is truth? The question is hardly definitive as to relative or absolute. In fact, it's exactly the opposite.

Your politician bit is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Chris Christie and Paul Ryan are calling out Trump too blaming him for the GOP poor showing .

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The ship of the Trump MAGA cult is sinking. Bon voyage.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Earlier Athos said, "Apparently, Jesus found no fault in Pilate's question clearly implying truth is not the same for all. I.e., relative." But now he says, "I think we can agree that truth is absolute (something can't be true and not true, so when a thing is true, it's always true (absolute)."

OK.

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Sorry so late in replying. This post has just been pointed out to me. I concentrate on Tomder's posts.


Jl has missed the essential viewpoint of each post (#s 29 and 44). In 29 quoted above, I am reporting what Jesus said and drawing a conclusion based on that. Nowhere did I offer agreement.


In the second post quoted above (#44), I am giving my opinion. There is no contradiction between #s 29 and 44.


(I should further note that my post #31 corrects an error I made in post 29 about the author of the words I quoted. They were the words of Pilate, not of Jesus. “I find no fault in him”. My post #29 was misleading for that reason, and I apologized to WG.)

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This post has just been pointed out to me.

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That really amused me. Who is your "spy"???

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Apparently, Jesus found no fault in Pilate's question clearly implying truth is not the same for all. I.e., relative.

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For this post 29, I would think that it's pretty hard to make the case that you were "drawing a conclusion" and then suggest you did not agree with your own conclusion. ("In 29 quoted above, I am reporting what Jesus said and drawing a conclusion based on that. Nowhere did I offer agreement.") I suppose you are now saying that it was "clearly implied" that Jesus was making that case, so you would have to also be saying that you did not agree with him. At any rate, I do understand that you misunderstood the passage and, it would seem, thought it was Jesus speaking at the end when in fact it was Pilate, so perhaps that explains it all, though it's still pretty muddled.

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I think we can agree that truth is absolute.

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This was a straightforward statement. So you have stated the obvious now that truth is absolute, and I can certainly agree with you in that regard. We can move on with at least that much established. I do thank you for the reply.

If MAGA Repubs were such a threat to democracy then why did the Dem machine spend $millions funding MAGA candidates ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

If MAGA Repubs were such a threat to democracy then why did the Dem machine spend $millions funding MAGA candidates ?

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The answer has been shown many times. The MAGA extremists were funded in the primaries so that they would be easier to beat than any non-MAGA moderate candidates in the generals.

It worked in some isolated cases . But tough news for establishment Repubs and Dems then . The Repub majority House will have a solid bloc of Trump endorsed Freedom Caucus members

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Your politician bit is nonsense

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No it is not . He said he found Jesus without guilt and still ordered his execution to appease the mob.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

No it is not . He said he found Jesus without guilt and still ordered his execution to appease the mob.

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Ok, I guess you have a point there.