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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

It works, unlike what we are doing now. Don't believe that? Ask Jenn.

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Nope. I raised two rambunctious male children to be respectful of others no matter what age, to express appreciation when needed, and to be peacemakers. Neither one ever failed in those endeavors.

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Perhaps the difference between us is that I actually WAS a principal and had to keep a lid on an entire school. You have happy theories. Well, good for you and I wish you well. I am perfectly happy with the approach I used successfully at five different schools.

Hebrews 12:6. Amplified Bible FOR THE LORD DISCIPLINES and CORRECTS THOSE WHOM HE LOVES, AND HE PUNISHES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES and WELCOMES [TO HIS HEART].”

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Mine aren't theories. They're tried and true. You obviously have no idea what the Bible means by punishment and discipline.

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You obviously have no idea what the Bible means by punishment and discipline.

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You need to learn that just because you happen to disagree with the Bible does not mean someone else doesn't understand it. This is the word translated as "punishes". mastigóō – properly, to whip (scourge) with a mastigos (see 3148 /mástiks, a "whip"); to "flog (scourge) a victim, strapped to a pole or frame" (Souter); (figuratively) God sending severe pain in the best eternal interests of the believer (see Heb 12:6)
Reflection: As in the Lord's dealing with Job, God's purifying love is all-wise when we experience temporal suffering. Hence, it always works for our greater eternal gain as we live in faith (Ro 8:18-25,38). For example, God authorized an incredible amount of earthly pain (bringing heavenly gain) in the lives of Jeremiah and John the Baptist.

Now I would agree that "discipline" and "punishment" are not synonyms, but the meaning of "punishment" is pretty well universally understood. For you to suggest that I don't understand it because you don't like the idea is just foolishness.

I congratulate you on the raising of your two sons. I will still take the benefit of my 24 years as a school principal when it comes to dealing with children. Our kids were happy and well-behaved children because they knew the boundaries and were comfortable with them, and they also knew we insisted on a certain level of decent behavior.

No, because you are a literalist.

I'd sure love to interview some of those children, now adults!

I have no idea why you insist on arguing over everything. I am, however, glad to find out you are not a literalist. That means I can take your words to mean that you love my methods of discipline, you support me completely, and you are certain that all of my schoolchildren turned out just fine. Wonderful, Wondergirl!

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I have no idea why you insist on arguing over everything. I am, however, glad to find out you are not a literalist. That means I can take your words to mean that you love my methods of discipline, you support me completely, and you are certain that all of my schoolchildren turned out just fine. Wonderful, Wondergirl!

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And you get a D- in reading comprehension! That's not what a literalist is. You're twisting and shouting again. The more you talk about being a teacher and principal, the less I believe you.

And in a non-literal manner, I understand your words to mean that you completely approve of my views and support me fully.

Well, that's about as foolish as reading Heb. 12:6 and somehow coming to the conclusion that God does not punish those He loves. You read a text and decide it means the total opposite of what it clearly says, and yet I'm twisting??? You judge the Bible by your own views and beliefs. You need to try it the other way around.

Mr. Literalist, please do some honest thinking and stop taking verses out of context.

God loves you. Has He punished you?

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Mr. Literalist, please do some honest thinking and stop taking verses out of context.

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Just another general criticism with no specifics. If you want to be taken seriously, then make your case carefully.

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God loves you. Has He punished you?

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Many times, and I am very grateful for it.

You asked for context. Here it is. I will guess that you will ignore it, but others reading this post will see it plainly. I would suggest you read verse 8 with great care. It certainly seems to apply to you.

5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not take lightly the discipline of the Lord, and do not lose heart when He rebukes you.6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises every son He receives.”7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you do not experience discipline like everyone else, then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

Here are notes on the Greek word translated as "disciplines".

παιδεία (Tdf. παιδία; (see Iota)), παιδείας, ἡ, (παιδεύω), the Sept. for מוּסָר;1. the whole training and education of children (which relates to the cultivation of mind and morals, and employs for this purpose now commands and admonitions, now reproof and punishment): Ephesians 6:4 (cf. Winers Grammar, 388 (363) note); (in Greek writings from Aeschylus on, it includes also the care and training of the body.) (See especially Trench, Synonyms, § xxxii.; cf. Jowett's Plato, index under the word Education).
2. "whatever in adults also cultivates the soul, especially by correcting mistakes and curbing the passions "; hence,
a. instruction which aims at the increase of virtue: 2 Timothy 3:16.
b. according to Biblical usage chastisement, chastening (of the evils with which God visits men for their amendment): Hebrews 12:5 (Proverbs 3:11), f (see ὑπομένω, 2 b.), ; (Proverbs 15:5, and often in the O. T.; cf. Grimm, Exgt. Hdbch. on Sap., p. 51; (cf. (Plato) definition παιδεία. δύναμις θεραπευτικη

Wasn't Jesus punished for our sins?

Yes, He was. The punishment He received was the judgment that would have rightly fallen upon us. Now, the discipline we receive as sons/daughters is meant to point us in the right direction and to correct our wrong beliefs and actions. That is the clear and obvious intent of the Hebrews passage.

But if you have a different view on that passage, then please put it forward. Just bear in mind that you need to directly deal with the text. Just accusing others of being too literal is not an argument. I invite you to tell us, with justification, what you believe the text means.

Our heavenly Father is not like this. How do I know? I know Jesus. Jesus loves me unconditionally. Jesus is my model not only to love others but also to be gracious, kind. Jesus said he was about his Father’s business -- not the punishing business but the adoption business. God loves me and, thanks to the sacrifice of His Son, will spend eternity delighting in me and me in Him.

Hebrews 12:6 quotes Proverbs 3:11-12 -- a direct quote copied from the legalistic Old Testament then partially rewritten (probably by some unknown translator) into the New Testament

A better translation of Hebrews 12:6 is "For whom the Lord loves he instructs, just as a father the son in whom he delights."

First you claimed I took the Heb. scripture out of context. When I provided the context, you chose to not look at the Heb. 12 text at all. I can only assume you have chosen to ignore it as you do any other passage that does not agree with you.

As for Jesus, He drove people out of the Temple with a whip and overturned their tables TWICE. He chewed out His disciples several times such as when they did not cast the demon out of the young boy or when they completely missed his statement concerning the leaven of the pharisees. He pronounced a thorough condemnation of the Pharisees, and for those of us who accept the Bible, or for that matter the words of Christ Himself, He is coming again to bring judgment on the earth. So if you truly "know Jesus", then you will acknowledge these things. I genuinely fear for you, that you have essentially invented a "Jesus" that matches up to your beliefs. I sincerely hope you will read your Bible more carefully and choose to let it establish your beliefs.

I might add that nowhere in the Bible does it say that God loves us "unconditionally". He certainly has a great love for "the world", but He does not accept people without condition. That is an unbiblical idea.

Of course I read it AND its OT predecessor.

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He certainly has a great love for "the world", but He does not accept people without condition. That is an unbiblical idea.

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Ah, you don't believe in Jesus and what He did for us. Now I understand where you're coming from.

I'll wave to you from heaven.

Perhaps I see your problem. You do not know the Bible. You do not know the Bible because, I think, you fear the Bible. You realize it will destroy your mythical Jesus. There is a real Jesus. When faced with what the Bible says about that person, you resort to silly comments about waving. I would encourage you to face the truth.

I'd love to know your view on this. It is certainly not "unconditional".

36 “Now therefore the whole nation of Israel must know beyond the shadow of a doubt that this Jesus, whom you crucified, God has declared to be both Lord and Christ.” 37 When they heard this they were cut to the quick, and they cried to Peter and the other apostles, “Men and fellow-Jews, what shall we do now?”
38-39 Peter told them, “You must repent and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, so that you may have your sins forgiven and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

He certainly has a great love for "the world", but He does not accept people without condition. That is an unbiblical idea.

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The "condition" is my accepting, by the power of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus died for me, loves me, and will welcome me into heaven someday.

That Hebrew text was copied from Proverbs. The translator must have been at a loss so threw that in.

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The "condition" is my accepting, by the power of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus died for me, loves me, and will welcome me into heaven someday.

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That's not too bad except you left off what Peter included. Do you see it?

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That Hebrew text was copied from Proverbs. The translator must have been at a loss so threw that in.

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Why? Because it disagrees with your views? Even worse, this is the Proverbs text. In what way does it support your idea that God will not discipline and punish those who are His chldren???

My son, do not reject or take lightly the discipline of the Lord [learn from your mistakes and the testing that comes from His correction through discipline];
Nor despise His rebuke, For those whom the Lord loves He corrects,
Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights.

I'd still like to see your comments on the many places I shown where Jesus sternly rebuked people.

a bunch of Rabbis were in one of their debate the Talmud moods as they frequently are . The topic was an oven and whether it was impure under Jewish law .Well most of the Rabbis agreed it was impure.

But Rabbi Eliezer insisted it was . He said if I am right this carob tree will fly away ..... and it did .The other Rabbis said Jewish law is not determined by a carob tree.

So Rabbi Eliezer said if I am right this river will flow backward .And it did . That did not convince them ,He made the walls of the room shake and fall . That did not convince them .

So final he called on Divine help . A voice from heaven was heard "why are you differing with Eliezer as everything he has said is in accordance with the Talmud ? "

You would think the voice of God should've been the final arbiter .It wasn't .

The other Rabbis cited Deuteronomy 30:12, "It is not up to heaven"

Since the Torah is not in heaven, heavenly voices have no special authority to interpret it. “Since the Torah has already been given to us from Mount Sinai, we do not pay attention to heavenly voices.”

Eliezer had God on his side ..but the Rabbinical majority rules . God smiled and said “My children have defeated me, my children have defeated me.”

(The Oven of Achnai)

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I'd still like to see your comments on the many places I showed where Jesus sternly rebuked people.

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Tell me about Jesus when He was here on earth, about His humanness, when He reacted just like we should when seeing theft and corruption by modern-day Pharisees (and not voting for them).

Except that much of his rebuke was for His own disciples. What about that???

But even at that it still is plainly true, by your own response, that Jesus rebuked people.

The missing condition Peter included but you left out was repentance. I thought you might see it.

Jesus was fully human at the time, just like you are now, with the same emotions and reactions.