My best efforts are limited and inadequate, as are those of most individuals or even charities to address the great need that is prevalent, and do believe as a nation we should be willing to do what we can to protect those through no fault of their own fall short of helping themselves, or have the least.

I'll be honest I hate disclosing the time I've put in with church and civic groups mostly because it's a very personal thing between me and the God that I'm learning to understand. I hope YOU understand and don't bet against me and my paltry efforts, I'm doing the best I can with what I have.

I'm not trying to insult you. I'm trying to get you to understand that when we allow our stupid fed govt to go out and borrow multiple trillions of dollars to meet the budget, then it is no different than us going out and borrowing the money personally. And if we continue to allow these crooked, despicable pols to get away with it, then we are as dumb as they are. No one here would borrow money to give to charity, but that's what you expect our govt to do in our name. That is not sound thinking.

If we want it, then let's pay for it. To put it on the backs of our children and grandchildren is the most cowardly, sickening, pathetic approach to government I can possibly imagine. It is a game of fantasy that will have terrible consequences.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

No one here would borrow money to give to charity, but that's what you expect our govt to do in our name. That is not sound thinking.

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Other Americans and I pay taxes (income taxes, payroll taxes, sales taxes, and real estate taxes) with the trust that the money will be used to help everyone, both rich and poor -- e.g., building and repairing streets and roads/bridges, national defense, Social Security and health care, interest on the national debt, education, transportation, and law enforcement.

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Other Americans and I pay taxes (income taxes, payroll taxes, sales taxes, and real estate taxes) with the trust that the money will be used to help everyone, both rich and poor -- e.g., building and repairing streets and roads/bridges, national defense, Social Security and health care, interest on the national debt, education, transportation, and law enforcement.

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I get that, and I basically agree with you to a large extent. HOWEVER, they are spending our tax money, and then they are borrowing out the wazoo as well, and this coming year has all the potential to be a nightmare in that regard. Now if a person cares nothing about the future, then that plan is fine, but if you want to leave a bright future for your children and grandchildren, then you cannot ignore this.

One more point. The federal government has no mandate to provide for individuals. It's mandate is to do that which helps everyone.

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Other Americans and I pay taxes (income taxes, payroll taxes, sales taxes, and real estate taxes) with the trust that the money will be used to help everyone, both rich and poor -- e.g., building and repairing streets and roads/bridges, national defense, Social Security and health care, interest on the national debt, education, transportation, and law enforcement.

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Everything you say is true, but the now-dismissed-toddler-in-chief supporters will come back with decrying the increase in the national debt because of such an "unfair" tax burden or spending or whatever the reason du jour happens to be.

However, they always fail to note that the debt has INCREASED enormously under Trump and the Republicans, even before the pandemic. Much of Trump's increase has been the result of his massive reduction in taxes for the wealthiest people in the nation.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

My best efforts are limited and inadequate, as are those of most individuals or even charities to address the great need that is prevalent, and do believe as a nation we should be willing to do what we can to protect those through no fault of their own fall short of helping themselves, or have the least.

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These words or something very like them are inscribed at the heart of every religion in the world. The Scrooges of the world who see only the cost will always be with us.

Actually they don't borrow they sell bonds just like cities do for capital projects and private sector companies.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Actually they don't borrow they sell bonds just like cities do for capital projects and private sector companies.

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Tal, I tried to send you a private message but your inbox is at capacity and needs to be cleared.

The process is simple, the pigs with their snout in the trough keep snorting for more food and the fatter they grow the more their hunger increases. Fat little piggies get a higher price at market

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Actually they don't borrow they sell bonds just like cities do for capital projects and private sector companies.

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No, they don't. It's not at all the same. Municipal bonds are for set periods and get paid back in the same sense that you pay your house mortgage, and they are generally used to fund special projects like schools or road construction. The feds use it simply to fund day to day operations, and no one pretends that they plan on paying back the fed debt. It's borrowed money on which they merely pay interest. That's why fed debt, as a percentage of GDP, has risen from around 30% in 1980 to its current 136% and rising fast. It's your kind of excuse making that must stop before the public will get the courage, if it ever does, to force a stop to it. It is cowardice on an enormous scale on our parts. We want to spend the money without paying the taxes. All gain and no pain for today and the heck with tomorrow.

borrowing long to pay day to day expenses is always a recipe for disaster, sooner or later you will have to repudiate the national debt and become a banana republic

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borrowing long to pay day to day expenses is always a recipe for disaster, sooner or later you will have to repudiate the national debt and become a banana republic

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We're not in this alone, if that's any consolation. Many European nations are following a similarly insane path as is Japan.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

We're not in this alone, if that's any consolation. Many European nations are following a similarly insane path as is Japan.

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Yes I know and we have increased debt to pay for CV19 programs. In one year we have gone from surplus to mortgaging the next generation. It is insane but then politicians of all persuasions have to look good

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Originally Posted by paraclete

borrowing long to pay day to day expenses is always a recipe for disaster, sooner or later you will have to repudiate the national debt and become a banana republic

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Not always. The US incurred a tremendous debt to pay for WW2 which was not repudiated and did not result in the US becoming a banana republic.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Not always. The US incurred a tremendous debt to pay for WW2 which was not repudiated and did not result in the US becoming a banana republic.

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I'm talking about the path you are now on

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The US incurred a tremendous debt to pay for WW2 which was not repudiated and did not result in the US becoming a banana republic.

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What Athos forgot to tell you was this. During both World Wars and the Great Depression, national debt rose, but then fell precipitously because we had enough sense to know that incurring debt during good economic times was stupid. The explosion of debt over the past forty years is unprecedented, and deficit spending every year, year after year, is now considered the norm. The next four years are going to be disastrous in that regard. Neither party is willing to take a stand for fiscal sanity, and no one seems to believe that having a plan to pay for new expenditures has any real importance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation..._Sep._2020.png

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I'm talking about the path you are now on

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Ok, but that's not what you said initially.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

What Athos forgot to tell you was this. During both World Wars and the Great Depression, national debt rose, but then fell precipitously because we had enough sense to know that incurring debt during good economic times was stupid. The explosion of debt over the past forty years is unprecedented, and deficit spending every year, year after year, is now considered the norm. The next four years are going to be disastrous in that regard. Neither party is willing to take a stand for fiscal sanity, and no one seems to believe that having a plan to pay for new expenditures has any real importance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation..._Sep._2020.png

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Thank FDR for that with his social and fiscal policy.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Not always. The US incurred a tremendous debt to pay for WW2 which was not repudiated and did not result in the US becoming a banana republic.

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Economic stimulus has spurred growth and bananas are tasty, but our republic doesn't need them to thrive and survive during a crisis or any other obstacle.

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Thank FDR for that with his social and fiscal policy.

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FDR increased the national debt every year he served.

So did the dufus so what's your point?