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Me as a fetus.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Did you ever dare to ask? They were all emotionally secure, happy, empathetic, centered?Quote:
I was a principal and teacher for more than thirty years. I saw MANY kids go through that exact situation. Not a single one ever indicated they would rather be dead. Your conjecture is very sad.
all I can contribute is that I am very glad my birth mother didn't decide to abort me and I have no doubt the same could be said of every aborted fetus should they have been given the opportunity
They MAY be prochoice, not very high on my list of priorities for an elected official, but also promote the kind of governance that will uplift all of us and not just chill for the richest among us. One trick ponies don't get my vote, but I understand your position, it's just not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You LIE! I've never written a thing about wanting to kill unwanted children or for that matter abandoning them after they are born, wanted or unwanted. Just the opposite, but am interested in knowing more about all that help pro lifers give to women that have their children.Quote:
I'm not demanding anything. I suggest that people get married prior to sex. That way when pregnancy happens, there are two people in the equation to help, but they are free to do as they please. If a single mom asks for help, she can get lots of it from the pro-lifers. She will get nothing but a bill from your pro-abortion buddies. I will never, ever, ever adopt your strategy of just killing those pesky, unwanted children.
Never been to such a clinic, and never taken a female for an abortion. I have no clue what you guys have in your small town, but our the women's health clinics I've been to do a full range of female health care, and that includes Planned Parenthood.Quote:
The place we go to is an abortion clinic. That's the business they do. If you ever trouble yourself to go look for yourself, you'll find out.
[QUOTE]I don't believe for one second that you've ever spent 5 minutes at an abortion clinic speaking with protestors and the women going in.[QUOTE]
LOL, doesn't matter what you believe but I have seen what protestors outside our PP clinic is about, mostly raving lunatics, escorted a few women through those lunatics, never for an abortion. I know many pro life advocates, most fairly good people and level headed but weren't just one issue people either. I know some that have terminated pregnancies after having kids already. It's been my experience that pro choicers, like pro lifers have a wide range of feelings on this abortion subject and it's not just a one size fits all opinion.
You might still be doing the activist thing my friend, but I admit to being less physically active for a cause as I once was. I won't lie as I was possibly as big a self righteous a$$hole as you still are. Maybe still am, but I find discussing is a better option since I've already been there and done that activist thing, and not just for the abortion cause. As far as abortions go, I've never advocated for them, but do advise the counsel of a doctor when pregnancy is suspected and the rest is between them and that doctor.Quote:
Says the man who's too busy typing on a message board to get off his rear end and go do as I've suggested. Just a lot easier to cast accusations at people who spend their time trying to save the lives that you seem to care nothing at all about.
Never have I been asked whether or not a person should have an abortion.
The fertilized egg is flushed out during menstruation. If you had looked up "menstruation" like I suggested, you would know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I appealed to the Book of Genesis in the Bible. If my logic made no sense, it's not enough for you to just say so. You need to show why it made no sense.Quote:
You can't appeal to Adam. Your logic made no sense.
I don't why you are dismayed, the issue of viability was brought up earlier. But even so, why the dismay? And why do you say that I proceeded to "toss it out"? By seeming to miss so many obvious points, often in sarcastic language, you make it very difficult to remain civil and continue with whatever is being discussed.Quote:
I do appreciate you answering the question. I am dismayed that you brought up the issue of viability and then proceeded to toss it out, but at least you did answer the question.
No. You merely vote for and vigorously campaign for those who will continue to allow that very thing to happen, and then act like you have no participation in it. Sorry, but I'm calling you out on that one.Quote:
You LIE! I've never written a thing about wanting to kill unwanted children or for that matter abandoning them after they are born, wanted or unwanted
If you've been to a PP clinic, you've been to an abortion clinic.Quote:
Never been to such a clinic,
You are in favor of abortion when you vote for those in favor of abortion.
Athos, your issue wasn't what happened to the fertilized egg which does not implant. That happens. The issue I raised was that the woman would not be aware of it. She is not.
You say the zygote cannot be made in God's image since that first occurred with Adam, and he was formed fully as an adult. The failure in logic comes in trying to determine where this "image" is imprinted. 3 month fetus? 8 month fetus? 2 year old child? 10 year old child? If not the zygote, then why not? Why are you making that arbitrary decision for the zygote but not for the 2 year old?
You very plainly tossed it out when you said you did not use viability as a standard. You brought up the issue of viability, not me. To say, as you do, that aborting a 24 week fetus is OK when you also acknowledge that the child could live outside the womb is what dismayed me. And please don't complain about sarcasm and civility. You have one of the most biting keyboards on this board. I would suggest you work on your own civility, although to be fair I will say it has been some better lately.
Your characterization that PP or any women's health clinic is exclusively or mostly about just abortions is just old right wing pro-life propaganda. You still have not articulated all that help and services you provide to needy women and children that dems/liberals do not.
I didn't say that, so you're making it up again. I said that when you go to a PP clinic, you are going to an abortion clinic. Abortions are routinely performed there. Yes, they do other things, but they are still a clinic that does MANY abortionsQuote:
Your characterization that PP or any women's health clinic is exclusively or mostly about just abortions
You surely have implied that's all they do when in fact abortions are a very small part of the total services PP for example provides. What of the VAST majority of other services they provide and how do you tell if a woman is going for an abortion or those other services?
Nope. Never have. You're making it up again. But no matter what else they do, they kill about 300,000 unborn children a year. You are fine with that. I am not. End of story.Quote:
You surely have implied that's all they do
If that's your version, you're welcome to it.
That's not my version. It's how it is. It you can refute it, then go for it, but the silly, meaningless comments accomplish nothing.
Must not be enough people buying into your version of the way things are to make changes. Dontcha hate when that happens?
That's not how truth is determined. In fact, liberal dems are proving that people will flock to the person promising the most give aways.Quote:
Must not be enough people buying into your version of the way things are to make changes.
You flocked to the dufus because of what he would give you. What human wouldn't?
I "flocked" to Trump because he was anti-abortion, he said he would appoint fed judges who would abide by the rule of law, and because I thought he would balance the budget. Oh well. 2 out of 3. I didn't want him, or any other pres, to "give" me anything. Never really have. I want the feds to leave me alone as much as possible. My trust is not in the government.
Great that you now realise that or are you like Trump, your leader full of itQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I said a huge number of fertilized eggs are flushed out during menstruation. Clearly, that did not mean an egg that continues within the womb. Otherwise, it would not be flushed out during menstruation. I am tempted to characterize your comment with the mis-understanding it deserves, but I'll refrain from doing so and again recommend you learn about menstruation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
According to Genesis, Adam was formed from dust ("From dust thou art, to dust thou shalt return") and also from clay - either one works.Quote:
You say the zygote cannot be made in God's image since that first occurred with Adam, and he was formed fully as an adult. The failure in logic comes in trying to determine where this "image" is imprinted. 3 month fetus? 8 month fetus? 2 year old child? 10 year old child? If not the zygote, then why not? Why are you making that arbitrary decision for the zygote but not for the 2 year old?
The failure in logic is all yours. You seem to be saying that Adam's imprint pre-existed Adam. That is not in the Bible (to use your phrase).
I never said that. I very clearly said viability IS a standard (one of them).Quote:
You very plainly tossed it out when you said you did not use viability as a standard.
I don't remember saying anything like that so maybe you misread what I wrote. I'll reply if you can give me the details of what you claim I wrote.Quote:
To say, as you do, that aborting a 24 week fetus is OK when you also acknowledge that the child could live outside the womb is what dismayed me.
1. I've already covered the menstruation argument earlier. I will say that there are not a "huge number" of fertilized eggs "flushed out" during one menstruation event. There could very well not be any. At any rate, it has nothing to do with whether or not the fertilized egg is a human being. You tried to suggest that not having a funeral for those lost lives was somehow significant in relation to the question of its humanity. It actually means absolutely nothing. It would be like saying that the people lost on the Titanic were not human since, after all, they had no funeral.
2. You still have not answered my question. You say that Adam was formed from dust bearing the image of God as a fully formed adult. You then make the unsupported assertion that the zygote does not have that image. So when does a developing human receive the image of God?
3. This is your quote concerning viability. "Viability at 24 weeks is an average. It can be somewhat longer or sooner. In any case, viability was mentioned along with the heart and the brain as ways some determine the beginning of life. As for me, I believe Roe V. Wade is the best rule available re abortion." So you are rejecting viability as the primary standard. In many states a 30 weeks fetus can be aborted. To say that viability is "a standard" is pretty non-committal.
Viability means the ability to live outside the womb. In the quote above you clearly say that 24 weeks is an acceptable standard for viability. Do you remember now? And if you intend to include a heartbeat and brain waves as part of the decision, even though you attribute that to what "some" believe, then you have to go back much, much farther than 24 weeks. It just seems that you mention all of that, and then bail out and just go with Roe v Wade.Quote:
I don't remember saying anything like that so maybe you misread what I wrote. I'll reply if you can give me the details of what you claim I wrote.
I don't see how any person can say, " In any case, viability was mentioned along with the heart and the brain as ways some determine the beginning of life," and then reject 24 weeks as a limit for abortion. You would be saying that there are three potential standards for determining "the beginning of life", but then refusing to use any of them. Then why even mention them?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...th/3014473001/
Typically, pregnancies range from 38 to 42 weeks and babies are considered viable at 37 weeks. Across the country:
- 43 states restrict abortion by gestational age.
- 19 states ban abortion at 20 weeks of pregnancy.
- 5 states ban abortion at 24 weeks of pregnancy.
- 18 states ban abortion based on viability of the fetus.
Alabama has the most restrictive abortion law in the U.S., banning abortion at any stage of pregnancy and for any reason, including in cases of rape and incest. The law is on hold after a federal judge ruled the ban "defies the United States Constitution."
Virginia has a more lenient law than Alabama in terms of time frame and bans abortion at the third trimester, which begins at 25 weeks.
A 2018 report from the CDC found that in 2015, there were 638,169 reported abortions in the U.S. Of those, 65% of the procedures were performed at or before the eight-week mark and 91% were performed at or before the 13-week mark. Only 1.3% of abortions recorded were performed at 21 weeks or later.
That is completely ridiculous. Babies are born frequently several weeks premature and do well. No one considers 37 weeks to be the low range of viability. It is an absurd claim.Quote:
considered viable at 37 weeks.
"Although it continues to be an ethical dilemna and varies based on what part of the world a baby is born, most doctors define the age of viability as being about 24 weeks of gestation. In many hospitals, 24 weeks is the cutoff point for when doctors will use intensive medical intervention to attempt to save the life of a baby born prematurely."
https://www.verywellfamily.com/prema...bility-2371529
The number of abortions performed annually depends on who you listen to. The Guttmacher Institute reports about 850,000 a year. But imagine what this argument would sound like if we were discussing stillborn babies. "Oh, it's not a big deal. It's only a little more than six hundred thousand stillbirths a year. No big deal. They're not made in the image of God anyway. Sometimes they don't even receive funerals."
Now that is not intended to be sarcastic. It is based on what has been discussed here, on input from others.
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