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You asked me to reply. Are you now retracting that invitation?

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I didn't ask you to reply. That was directed to Tal. But you can reply if you'd like. I've rather enjoyed being blocked by you, but good times can only last so long. I don't care if you do or not. I don't value your views, but I do always try to be open to others.

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Excellent point! It's exactly the same. If the person's conscience tells him the law is wrong or unjust, of course he goes by his conscience. You have proven my point, probably inadvertently, but thank you anyway.

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You are wrong on two counts. First, a lawyer who follows his conscience rather than the law will not be a lawyer for long. There are judges who enforce the law. If a lawyer does not respect the law, then the lawyer needs to become a legislator. And that's where your second mistake is found. God is not looking for those who want to legislate. He is looking for those who want to believe. His wisdom is far above ours. To place what amounts to your own thoughts of right and wrong above what God says is the absolute height of arrogance.

There are many different types of lawyers and most in private practice serve the interest of the client and all are guided by the law. I mean conscious or not representing criminal and bad guys you do have a duty to do as the law requires and to practice whatever area of the law you choose.

Anyone can choose to let their conscience be their guide, or whatever else motivates them. Everyone has that choice and not everyone will agree with your choice, opinion, or interpretation of whatever scripture you can quote. That doesn't make them any more or less flawed than you or anyone else. Now you can argue the right and wrong of anything as can we all but none have the authority to force anyone even if they have the means.

Scripture has no authority unless one chooses to give it that authority. Bummer I know that YOU are not the arbiter of that authority.

I would agree with your first paragraph.

You had me going with you in the second paragraph until this. "...none have the authority to force anyone even if they have the means." Governments do that routinely. You will pay your taxes or go to jail. Most people, under threat of punishment, elect to pay their taxes.

I would not agree with the third. It is like saying that the law has no authority unless I decide to grant authority to it. If the Bible is God's word, which is the big question, then it has authority, a fact you will discover some day.

There really is a very simple answer to this discussion. I believe the Bible is God's word. You do not. We both have authority over our own wills and can make those decisions. We both also have to accept the ramifications of our beliefs.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I didn't ask you to reply. That was directed to Tal.

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No, it wasn't. It was directed to me. Here is what you posted to me:

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Read my response to that on the "Nature of Salvation" thread and see if you have a reply.

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That was not directed to Tal.

Then you wrote:

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It's like telling a lawyer to just go by his conscience rather than the law.

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I replied:

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Excellent point! It's exactly the same. If the person's conscience tells him the law is wrong or unjust, of course he goes by his conscience. You have proven my point, probably inadvertently, but thank you anyway.

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Your response:

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You are wrong on two counts. First, a lawyer who follows his conscience rather than the law will not be a lawyer for long. There are judges who enforce the law. If a lawyer does not respect the law, then the lawyer needs to become a legislator. And that's where your second mistake is found. God is not looking for those who want to legislate. He is looking for those who want to believe. His wisdom is far above ours. To place what amounts to your own thoughts of right and wrong above what God says is the absolute height of arrogance.

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Thank you for your opinion. Mine will be posted at the "Nature of Salvation" where you asked me to reply. Although now you are denying you ever asked me that, saying it was directed to tal. I have provided your words above. This is not a good start. If you are mistaken in such an obvious way, how can I expect you to read and respond in a rational manner?

I rechecked and you are correct. I somehow thought your post was Tal's since I had been "back and forthing" with him for a while. But feel free to respond. You always were. Remember that you had blocked me and not the other way around.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I rechecked and you are correct. I somehow thought your post was Tal's since I had been "back and forthing" with him for a while. But feel free to respond. You always were. Remember that you had blocked me and not the other way around.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

I would agree with your first paragraph.

You had me going with you in the second paragraph until this. "...none have the authority to force anyone even if they have the means." Governments do that routinely. You will pay your taxes or go to jail. Most people, under threat of punishment, elect to pay their taxes.

I would not agree with the third. It is like saying that the law has no authority unless I decide to grant authority to it. If the Bible is God's word, which is the big question, then it has authority, a fact you will discover some day.

There really is a very simple answer to this discussion. I believe the Bible is God's word. You do not. We both have authority over our own wills and can make those decisions. We both also have to accept the ramifications of our beliefs.

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I accept responsibility for my words, actions, and behavior and the government of man has the means to
enslave/imprison/suppress the body, but not the spirit.

Yesterday the third treaty between Israel and a former enemy nation was announced at the White House. That is the third Israli treaty the Trump adm helped negotiate . Add those to the success of the Serbia-Kosovo treaty The US is also wading in to another diplomatic effort between warring nations Armenia and Azerbaijan . No wonder NBC did not want to have foreign policy as a debate topic !

Mike Pompeo met separately in Washington with the foreign ministers of both countries yesterday in a bid to promote a cease-fire in hostilities over the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh. Russia had tried earlier in the week to broker a cease fire.

Both the US and Russia are a part of the Minsk Group set up by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe to mediate in the conflict.(OMG collusion!!!!)
Pay attention to this conflict .It is for a very strategic part of the world that as is often the case, involves the flow of energy .

https://abcnews.go.com/International...0up%20a%20deal.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Yesterday the third treaty between Israel and a former enemy nation was announced at the White House. That is the third Israli treaty the Trump adm helped negotiate .

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Are you referring to Sudan, Tomder?

Peace is to be hoped for in the Middle East, but it's not clear re Sudan.

Sky News Arabia quoted a Sudanese Foreign Ministry spokesman as saying his government looked forward to a peace agreement “based on equality and Sudanese interests.”

“There is no reason to continue hostility between Sudan and Israel,” the spokesman, Haidar Badawi,


HOWEVER:


But Sudan’s Acting Foreign Minister Omar Qama al-Din sought to distance himself from the spokesman's comments, saying in a statement the remarks were received “with astonishment.” He said his ministry did not discuss the issue of ties with Israel.

Fake news from Trump? Just asking.

• In the coming weeks, the two countries will begin negotiations on cooperation agreements in agriculture, economy, trade, aviation, migration issues, and other areas of mutual benefit.

At the White House announcement were officials from both Israel and Sudan
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020...isable=upscale

These countries have come from the 1967 Khartoum Resolution which stated that nations in the Arab League would never make peace with Israel to this agreement . No it does not YET approach the level of understanding that Israel made with the UAE . But it is a major breakthrough and the only reason there is no universal praise of this in the US press is because Trump helped broker it .

The US press has been very dishonest about the Trump foreign policy achievements . This move further isolates Arab nations from Iran and the dopey Palestinians who have had their extremism fed by a solidarity with Arab states .
Is it any wonder why both debate moderators steered clear of foreign policy as a debate topic ?

Israel will complete the creation of a safety cordon in the Red Sea, which includes Egypt, Jordan, South Sudan and Saudi Arabia. Sudan used to be a hub transporting weapons to the Gaza strip . The transfer of weapons from the Sinai Peninsula to Gaza, relies on smuggling routes passing through Sudan. This also brings normalization with Saudi Arabia closer to reality .

The emperor ;who won a Nobel Peace Prize just by being elected did nothing in the region to advance peace. He did the opposite feeding Iran with cash ,supporting their attempt at regional hegemony ;fomenting rebellion in some nations ;and not supporting popular uprising in Iran . He and Quid at his side did exactly to Israeli elections what they accuse Russia of attempting in the US .