All leftism is based in constructing factional conflict in society so that they can take power by "saving us" from it.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

All leftism is based in constructing factional conflict in society so that they can take power by "saving us" from it.

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Not quite right tom, leftists actually believe we can be saved from ourselves, while rightist believe we should be ruled over by an elite

Not quite right Clete ; the lefts believe that the state can save humans from themselves while conservatives believe that humans are flawed including the ones that rule . James Madison stated the conservative view better than I can;

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“But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature. If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In forming a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.”

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—James Madison, The Federalist No. 51

Is that conservatism, or just common sense checks and balances and OVERSIGHT? Maybe the problem is not enough common sense conservatives, and too many right wing left hating loonies.

The left has been eroding checks and balances written into the Constitution for over 100 years . They say they are reforming and improving the existing society's imperfections and weaknesses without imperiling its basic nature. Ideas like the emperor's transformation of America is deemed innocuous, well intentioned, constructive ,but not a dangerous trespass on fundamental liberties. They strip humans of individuality and assign us to groups based on race, ethnicity, age, gender, income, etc..

It's very Hobbesian . ....create a Leviathan government run by people who know what's best for us. Human nature can't be trusted but the nature of a rulers can be trusted. They don't see that their utopia is in fact a tyranny.

Well said my consummate capitalist friend. Why can't elected officials follow the people's will and not that of the oligarchs you so admire? What you thought your reps write the law?

Oligarchy from the Greek word oligarkhes means "few governing."
If you recall I'm the one who supported the tea party movement to oust the beltway lifers .I'm the one who favors term limits for every branch of the government. Please don't talk to me about supporting oligarchs when the Dems stay in office until they are literally corpses .Madame Mim drools all over herself and is completely incoherent and is still the minority leader in the House .

But let's assume you are talking about supporting an oligarchy outside the government that controls the politicians . Then you must be talking about supporters of the Clintoon crime family .For decades, the Clintons have built their family political enterprise on contributions from the global ultra-rich; between their campaigns and the foundations the couple has raised $3 billion .

Besides the established Wall Street firms the family tapped into the next generation of financial oligarchs ;the tech industry .

Virtually all the leading tech titans—Google’s Eric Schmidt, Facebook’s Sheryl Sandberg, venture capitalist John Doerr, Qualcomm founder Irwin Jacobs, Box CEO Aaron Levie, and Tesla founder Elon Musk embraced Clinton and gave generously ,not only to Evita's campaign ,but also to their "foundation " aka money laundering service .

Trump did not get any such support during the campaign.

And when you talk of putting the fix on the campaign ;who did more to undermine democracy than Evita and her cronies in the DNC when they knee-capped Bolshevik Bernie ?

So now you're crying because dems have MORE oligarchs? Really? You don't think its really strange that Hillary has been investigated for decades, and The Dufus for a year, and who's hollering the loudest? You b1tch for Bernie, and Bernie ain't said sh1t. The Tea Party didn't win, guess who did? Conservatives are a minority in there own party, guess who runs things?

Nope you can't blame the libs for any of this since YO" BOY runs it now, so own it and be happy. All I can do is eat popcorn and throw darts at The Dufus! I'm cool with that. Plus it's my turn.

8D

not 'my boy ' I'm still a never Trumper . 2020 I'll still waste my vote on someone with no chance. That means it won't be the Dem either because they are making the fatal mistake that the Dems made when they chose McGovern as the nominee .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Not quite right Clete ; the lefts believe that the state can save humans from themselves while conservatives believe that humans are flawed including the ones that rule . James Madison stated the conservative view better than I can;

—James Madison, The Federalist No. 51

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A very flawed argument Tom but I would expect you to revert to eighteenth century thinking, these fellows were only enlightened in their own eyes, they created a flawed system which two hundred years on has given rise to a government that is ungovernable

It's just the longest living democracy in the history of the world . Of course it is flawed because humans are flawed .That was Madison's point.

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

(Churchill)

Aw Clete, every nation has a history of setbacks, reversals, delays, and challenges. Such a dim view of the TOP dog just means you ain't sh1t. Was that your point?

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but I would expect you to revert to eighteenth century thinking,

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That itself is flawed thinking . I guess the thinking of Plato and Socrates should also be dismissed as irrelevant . How about Jesus ? His thinking was so 1st century AD .

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Aw Clete, every nation has a history of setbacks, reversals, delays, and challenges. Such a dim view of the TOP dog just means you ain't sh1t. Was that your point?

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Tal my point is isn't it time you tweeked the system a little.

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It's just the longest living democracy in the history of the world . Of course it is flawed because humans are flawed .That was Madison's point.“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”
(Churchill)

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Tom, other systems of government have lasted longer, and work quite well, and of course it depends upon your definition of democracy. If your system is set in stone just so it can survive, it will eventually degenerate, the republic will give way to the empire, the demogoges will rule and you will have nothing, Look at Italy, full of ancient monuments and political turmoil

the genius of our founders is they put in a process to change within the system. It's been done 26 times . It should be done more often .


the genius of our founders is they put in a process to change within the system. It's been done 26 times . It should be done more often .

The Dufus just got a new lawyer, and National Security Advisor. That's some dumba$$ tweaks to an already Wacked House.

>GROAN<

Dump is wearing them out quickly, he probably does their head in, they think they know what policy is and he changes it, which way is the wind blowing today?

He hasn't mentioned Kim since they agreed to meet, he seems to be taking aim at China, leaving Vlad to consolidate his hold.

That was his excuse for firing McMaster and hiring Bolton to get his negotiating team together for talks with Kim.

John Bolton joins Trump's team -- Here's how he could advocate on North Korea, China, Russia and more | Fox News

Let the Dufus be a Dufus.

I have no problem with the foreign policy team of Bolton ,Pompeo , Nilkki Haley . But I find it interesting that he ran as a non-interventionist and they hardly fit the bill .

You didn't drink the koolaid, did you?