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Originally Posted by paraclete

I don't know what those managed forests look like where you are but here they are softwood, not native to the land, they create a monoculture where animals don't live, Nothing lives there but the trees, they are clear felled and replanted every twenty five years and the spores in the air cause asthma. our wonderful cedar forests were all lost a century ago. I suspect you might have something similiar

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You would be wrong.

Um no ;our conservation efforts began in the late 19th century. Yes damage was done to ancient forests ;but a lot was preserved ;and many more untapped as they are on federal lands . Even here in the East coast the forest areas are massive ,diverse ,and teaming with life. I live within a short commute of NY City ,and still walk in thousands of acres of unpopulated woods.

Bush tried to give the federal land to oil companies, but Obama stopped him. Whew, that was close.

And Obama is leasing our beautiful oceans to wind energy companies to ugly them up with wind farms. What's your point?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Bush tried to give the federal land to oil companies, but Obama stopped him. Whew, that was close.

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There are plenty of Federal lands that are 'wastelands ' . A small section of the Arctic would've been perfect and the human foot print would've been very small. Conservation allows for human activity .

Unfortunately Tom conservation doesn't address making things better, merely preserving what we have, conservative environmentalism, not proactive

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Unfortunately Tom conservation doesn't address making things better, merely preserving what we have, conservative environmentalism, not proactive

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Do you believe everything you hear? I mean geez Clete, we have to live here too.

I believe what I see, Speech, outcomes. I, like a lot of people, are sick of poli-speak, I was into renewables long before it was fashionable, into understanding how to do things better. Do you know speech there are still people who think driving machinery straight up and down hills is the way to do it because it's easier, doesn't matter that it doesn't preserve water in the soil. They think clear felling trees is the way to do it, creating monoculture is the way to do it. Your poli's might be on message, mine might be on message, but I'm looking for something better, outcomes

I think you drank the kool-aid.

No speech I'm still alive and what we drink here isn't koolaid

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Originally Posted by paraclete

no speech I'm still alive and what we drink here isn't koolaid

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Well sir, reports of the US' environmental demise are greatly exaggerated. Unless maybe you live in Los Angeles, there's no hope for them.

We could stand to improve a few things here at home.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

We could stand to improve a few things here at home.

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Tal, there's always room for improvement but just as with race, the economy, the "war on women" having an honest conversation about the environment is not on the left's agenda.

I could easily say the same about the right's agenda speech, just sick of debates and ideas descending into rock throwing contests. Be great to have an agreement of good ideas and work on a process to implement a good plan of action. Works is what moves us forward, not throwing rocks.

Dude, that all sounds good and stuff but when the "war" itself is mythical there is no basis to even begin an honest conversation. It's just like the wage discussion we were having, I said "poor" and you turned it into a black/white thing.

That's another thread. Stick to this one. And my experience with the environment is the short cuts to safety, even if its expensive or technologically challenged safety still has to be first. We seem to fall short, in both life and treasure.

What is both life and treasure threatening is an agenda that says no matter what ;if we get our way energy prices will 'necessarily skyrocket' . An agenda that necessitates that even though we've never pumped as much oil ,we will still face ever increasing costs at the pump and probably face shortages next year because of the bizarre practice of mandating that ethanol from corn be mixed into the refinement. An agenda that forces oil to be transported on trains because we stubbornly refuse to allow the job creating construction of a pipeline. The killing of a whole industry like coal ,which has already made great strides in retooling their plants to make their emissions cleaner than ever . Meanwhile our coal and our oil get exported because we are destroying the domestic market ;and get sent to markets that have no such restrictions and controls .

That may be another thread but the strategy is the same. No matter how much evidence we produce - even from the very feds just looking for an excuse to halt something - you guys cry foul and expect us to believe our faucets going to be blow torches.

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Well sir, reports of the US' environmental demise are greatly exaggerated. Unless maybe you live in Los Angeles, there's no hope for them.

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Speech reports about many things are greatly exaggerated, we live in a society where each media outlet must top the next, thus we wind up discussing things that may not be the truth. Nothing has been more exaggerated than global warming, an idea that was invented to promote the now discredited idea of nuclear power. All global warming is is poli-speak. Are things changing, undoubtedly, but the idea that we can turn off the faucet is ridiculous, As fast as you nation or mine closes coal fired power stations the chinese start them up and the weird thing is, there hasn't been a coal fired power station built here in many years yet our emissions are the same or growing

I see Al Gore hasn't started flying comercial or tore down or even cut the utilities to his several megamansions yet.

Since he's king green turd... I'll take his lack of real concern since he has don't anything himself in his own life to mean he doesn't even believe its real either.