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Originally Posted by TUT317

Yes, you are right discrimination based on colour is racism. However,discrimination based on gender is not racism. It's discrimination based on gender. Isn't it? If it were discrimination based on colour then it would be racism.


Consider this hypothetical.....

I am an employer in a country with a large Buddhist population. According to my hiring records I have not employed any people of the Buddhist faith. Affirmative action moves in and tells me I MUST stop discriminating against Buddhists in my interviewing process. Basically this means I must start hiring Buddhists.

Affirmative action also tells me that certain penalties are in place based on various types of discrimination in the work place. I thumb my nose at affirmative action. They are not going to tell me who to hire. I would rather pay the fine.

When I find my self up before the courts the judge imposes a 24 month jail term for racial discrimination. But wait! Doesn't discrimination based on religion only carry a $500 fine?

The judge tells me yes, but then iterates, "What does it matter, it's still discrimination.If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is a duck".

Tut

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Discrimination is discrimination. There are different kinds of discrimination, but when you look at them all, its all about NOT picking someone because you dislike them for other than their abilities. Be it you hate Blue people, People with three breasts (or without)... or tall or short people.

If you can demonstrate you have hired based on qualification then its not YOU that discriminates... the policy that DEMANDS you hire a certain number of blue people, or a certain number of three breasted people in disregard to if you can find any that are equally qualified to the other applicants is discrimititory.

And anyone that considers being qualified as a second or third on the scale of importance rather than first... gets exactly what they were after... a second or third rate work force.

Look at the post office or most government offices for examples of what affirmative action gets you.

Those are bad examples of affirmative actions Smoothy, but actually I agree with the premise that discriminations is bad. As for affirmative action to fight that discrimination, there are several details you leave out, that are discriminatory by nature. One being is your assertion to being forced to accept one who isn't as qualified as you think you are, taking something from you that you think you deserve. Your position is without facts as there is a very big difference in looking PC and being PC, and you have to agree I think that window dressing to say "See we don't discriminate" is mostly the case, and that actually being qualified, is but a secondary non important motive to those who feed into this type of thinking. Looks good on paper, but contributes nothing. But it does excite anger, and resentment, at someone else, and covers up responsibility for the one who actually discriminates for the purpose of looking like they do not.

Case in point is your own dismissal of the effects of slavery, since you had none, and so you blame the descendants for not getting there act together and getting over their anger, or whatever. Just like the southerners who are spouting the civil war was about states rights, and not slavery.

Fact is slavery, and discrimination is still alive and well in America, and the chains and whips have been replaced by money, who gets it and how much, and policy directed at keeping slaves of the masses and blaming it on those masses.

The example I give you is where the money has gone, and where it has not in the last decades, and who has made the policies that directed that money. Sure its easy to sit in our section of the world and holler what's fair or not, but to ignore the facts, is to ignore the problem and never have a solution.

Fact, in the last 10 years wealth, or the opportunity for wealth, has been sucked out of the hands of the many, and redirected to the few, and the FACT is that there are more poor people than ever before. The FACT is that the ones with the money, have directed what LAWS are made, interpreted, and enforced, and the policies by which they become LAW. Those are facts.

Now you may holler yet again that all the poor want are dope and a free ride and a cell phone, none of which is made or supplied by the poor I may add, so the question becomes, who brings the dope and cell phones to the poor and why? Hmmm history tells us it's the same ones who sold whiskey to the Indians.

My point, we are all slaves being exploited for the benefit of someone else's wealth. Though you have a few bucks more, you are as poor as the poor you decry as being beneath you, and unworthy, and at the whim of another all your hard work is going for naught, and you will hate yourself, and blame others for your misery, just like the poor people do.

That's why they are happy with a cell phone, a bag of dope, and some wine, so they can feel better about themselves. That's why they are still in a ghetto, safely put away to keep them from finding out that there is a better way out, that there is a way out, period. You found it, because you wanted out. I applaud you for that, but just like back in the day when the slaves where freed, they didn't know of a better life, just the valley and fields they grew up in.

That's the discrimination my friend, and what keeps slaves in there place, not knowing what to do with the limited freedom that others would bestow on them. They are happy with just being a window dressing so it can be said, "see, we don't discriminate".

I agree quotas and affirmative actions is another form of discrimination, but that's all you got for now to work with. Until you address the real problem of discrimination, control over the money, or the value placed on a human by another, then we are all reduced to being slaves, whether we are locked in the ghetto, or not.

I wonder, is it your own fear of being poor again, that makes you angry about those that are still poor, or is it your hatred of what you have been through, that has you hating those you left behind.

Or has all your hard work only gotten you far enough to have a few bucks more, yet not far enough to not hear that ghetto blaster, or see your neighbor with a cell phone, and no job? Or do you still feel like the slaves you hate so much. YOU ARE you know, admit it, we all are, because we ain't making the rules, we are just following them.

Hello tal:

**greenie**

excon

Tal,

Wonderful post, well done.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

Discrimination is discrimination. There are different kinds of discrimination, but when you look at them all, its all about NOT picking someone because you dislike them for other than their abilities. Be it you hate Blue people, People with three breasts (or without)....or tall or short people.

If you can demonstrate you have hired based on qualification then its not YOU that discriminates.....the policy that DEMANDS you hire a certain number of blue people, or a certain number of three breasted people in disregard to if you can find any that are equally qualified to the other applicants is discrimititory.

And anyone that considers being qualified as a second or third on the scale of importance rather than first....gets exactly what they were after....a second or third rate work force.

Look at the post office or most government offices for examples of what affirmative action gets you.

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Hi Smoothy,

Yes, there are a large number of different types of discriminations. Now that you recognize this I think you are starting to narrow it down pretty well. I think your distinction between institutionalized and personal discrimination is a useful one.

As far as your reference to government offices being examples of institutionalized discrimination? I don't necessarily disagree with that.

Once you institutionalize discrimination in the form of an anti discrimination policy (affirmative action) then (as you point out ) it becomes a legal requirement. Yes,sometimes the law is a donkey.

As I said, I think the distinction is an important because you can have gender discrimination in the work place ( not necessary illegal) while sexual discrimination in the form of a policy is unlawful.


I just wish you wouldn't keep saying, "discrimination is discrimination"


Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Smoothy,

Yes, there are a large number of different types of discriminations. Now that you recognize this I think you are starting to narrow it down pretty well. I think your distinction between institutionalized and personal discrimination is a useful one.

As far as your reference to government offices being examples of institutionalized discrimination? I don't necessarily disagree with that.

Once you institutionalize discrimination in the form of an anti discrimination policy (affirmative action) then (as you point out ) it becomes a legal requirement. Yes,sometimes the law is a donkey.

As I said, I think the distinction is an important because you can have gender discrimination in the work place ( not necessary illegal) while sexual discrimination in the form of a policy is unlawful.


I just wish you wouldn't keep saying, "discrimination is discrimination"


Tut

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I say discrimination is discrimination... because it is. Anything else is certain groups trying to justify their own personal preferences to discriminate angainst someone else.

Its an all or nothing affair. If you allow one form of discrimination, you are a hipocrit to complain about someone else's preferred form.

Because I had a busy day yesterday, and I will again today.

It was commented on a few posts back that Slavery and discrimination are alive and well in the USA... I call BS on the slavery end... because that was outlawed generations ago... and will result in jail time for anyone caught trying it.

Discrimination IS alive and well... and you can thank the liberals for the fact it is. Its called Affirmative action... and cute name changes doesn't change what it is. Its Discrimination, in favor of liberals... at the expense of everyone else, including other liberals.

And personally... I have a lower respect for anyone that believes in discrimination, practices discrimination, or in particular, expects to be allowed to discriminate for their own gain.

The NAACP, Black Caucus, Black PAnthers, KKK, White Supremacists, NeoNazi's, CAIR, CASA De Maryland, and any of that ilk... are all alike. They are all rascists to the core. And all believe in their own form of discrimination.

Doesn't matter if its codified into law... its STILL repugnent. And just because someone generations ago was discriminated on is NO excuse to be demanding anything right now. It didn't happen to you so grow a pair, and deal with it. When he came here my GANDFATHER, not great great or great great great grandfather was discriminated on for his ethnicity... and this was many decades after slavery ended... when blacks could get jobs that the Irish were refused... and yes... look up INNA... Irish Need Not Apply, in reference to New York City.

Do I expect reperations for that? Nope... if it didn't happen to you, then YOU aren't entitled to anything for it. If it happened before your were born... you aren't entitled to anything, nothing wrong with learning about it... but you do have to shut up and stop trying to blame your own personal shortcomings and deficiencies on events that occurred before you were a gleem in your parents eyes.

There is a famous saying because its both accurate and true. "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it." Its not an excuse to keep repeating it. If it wasn't right then... its still not right now, and won't be right tomorrow either.

Hi Smooth,

Everyone, discriminates to some extent.

I discriminate against Vegemite( food based extract made from yeast) I discriminate against it at every opportunity. I can't stand the stuff( in fact I hate the stuff )and I usually make it known to everyone I meet. I do my discrimination act in front of Vegemite lovers. And yes, I do it to promote my own personal preferences. This is not made up I really have been know to do this.

Is my behaviour repugnant? According to your definition it is. Is it?

This is of course a trite example. I'm not sure about American history so I'll go along with your analysis. The only point I have been making all along is that discrimination populates itself along a very large continuum with discrimination against various products at one end to overt racism at the other. One end of the continuum is legal and everyone does it to a certain extent. Racism you can do it but it is illegal. This is why discrimination isn't discrimination.

If you can't see this then there is nothing I can do about it.


Tut

You make it sound like only liberals discriminate now. I beg to differ. Its like a black guy in a suit trying to hail a cab. I do have to say that lumping all groups into the same bucket is stopping you from seeing any differences in those groups, as the purpose of the NAACP, is quite different from the KKK, but you will never know that by your thinking, and that's prejudice, and a shame.

But since your grandfather was never chained, beaten, bought and sold, or lynched, you know nothing of slavery, Jim Crow, or any other legal discriminations going on then, or now. So please stop pretending you do, and minimizing the experience of others with such a narrow view. You don't even try to understand the real fears of others you rail so vehemently against.

That's why you will never understand your own slavery now, because money, and economic opportunity are the modern day replacement for chains, and whips. Fear is still the fence that divide have, and have NOT. Haven't you noticed the slave class growing? Haven't you noticed the total decline of dignity, and self respect? Haven't you noticed that hard, honest work is not rewarded as much as cut throat, selfish behavior?

Of course you don't. That's why you have no concept of institutional inequity, or its long term effects. Take away discrimination, then maybe you won't knock a guy for having a chance.

I respectfully submit that only a racist would even consider the opportunity of another threatens him in any way. Yes I reject all your excuses for hatred.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You make it sound like only liberals discriminate now. I beg to differ. Its like a black guy in a suit trying to hail a cab. I do have to say that lumping all groups into the same bucket is stopping you from seeing any differences in those groups, as the purpose of the NAACP, is quite different from the KKK, but you will never know that by your thinking, and thats prejudice, and a shame.

But since your grandfather was never chained, beaten, bought and sold, or lynched, you know nothing of slavery, Jim Crow, or any other legal discriminations going on then, or now. So please stop pretending you do, and minimizing the experience of others with such a narrow view. You don't even try to understand the real fears of others you rail so vehemently against.

Thats why you will never understand your own slavery now, because money, and economic opportunity are the modern day replacement for chains, and whips. Fear is still the fence that divide have, and have NOT. haven't you noticed the slave class growing? Haven't you noticed the total decline of dignity, and self respect? Haven't you noticed that hard, honest work is not rewarded as much as cut throat, selfish behavior?

Of course you don't. Thats why you have no concept of institutional inequity, or its long term effects. Take away discrimination, then maybe you won't knock a guy for having a chance.

I respectfully submit that only a racist would even consider the opportunity of another threatens him in any way. Yes I reject all your excuses for hatred.

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Gee, its clear YOU support discrimination, as long as its discrimination YOU want to happen.

You are a liberal... most of those supporting this mindset are liberal... thus the liberals actually are the ones most guilty of discrimination today... and your own post proves it.

Unlike your stance that its OK to discriminate as long as it's the people you want to discriminate against, I say ALL discrimination is wrong. Don't care if its man or woman, White, black, hispanic or other.

The NAACP of TODAY has morphed into a rascist organization. I speak of today's organization that no longer is what it was originally. They don't get a free pass because they support Democrats. Blacks are no more immune from practicing rascism than any other group... and they do practice it... talk to inner city Latinos, or Asians.

Today its no different and no better than the KKK is.

Imagine the Democrats crying if someone started a NAAWP for example.


And personally... what happened 50+ years ago... they need to get over it or get therapy for it. This is today... they need to stop living in the past.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

And personally.....what happened 50+ years ago......they need to get over it or get therapy for it. This is today...they need to stop living in the past.

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I agree. Same with that 9/11 stuff - it's been 10 years! They should stop that sappiness on TV and gte over it.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I agree. Same with that 9/11 stuff - it's been 10 years! They should stop that sappiness on TV and gte over it.

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What does a crime (the Democrats called that a crime, not an act of war remember) have to do with discrimination that happened several generations ago?

So only discrimination should be forgotten then?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

So only discrimination should be forgotten then?

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If someone called you a bad name 50+ years ago and someone won't let go of is indication of a mental disorder.


Slavery ended over 150 years ago... get over it.

One of my Great Uncles dissappeared on the Battan Death march after having been captured earlier by the Japanese... THEY were treated far worse than slaves were. Slaves were quite valuable... but to Eperial Japan, POW's were of less than no value.

But that was 1942... I don't hold it against the Japanese of today at all. Not all Blacks in the USA at that time were slaves... not all blacks in the USA are even descendants of slaves in reality.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

If someone called you a bad name 50+ years ago and someone won't let go of is indication of a mental disorder.

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Well if you're equating slavery to someone calling you a bad name then I guess our conversation is over.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Well if you're equating slavery to someone calling you a bad name then I guess our conversation is over.

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So name me some living former slaves? Name me ONE living former slave from when it was actually legal here. You can't because its been generations. Thus nobody alive has been affected by it in reality... so nobody alive has an excuse to complain.

Its over... it's been over for more than 150 years now, its not EVER coming back... so get over it.

Its no different than some loon having a bug up their but with Cherokee Indians because one of their ancesters were scalped by one 150 years ago. I'd tell them to get over it too.

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QUOTE by smoothy;
If someone called you a bad name 50+ years ago and someone won't let go of is indication of a mental disorder.

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Name calling is a lot different than subjugation, and even the name calling hasn't stopped. Your own derogatory comparisons are evidence of that.

Funny how we agree that people who cannot let it go, are suffering from a mental disorder, or in my own words, a bad attitude.

You won't get rid of affirmative action until you deal with what makes it necessary, discrimination of other peoples opportunities, or options. The existence of one, leads to the existence of the other. Wrong though they may be.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Name calling is a lot different than subjugation, and even the name calling hasn't stopped. Your own derogatory comparisons are evidence of that.

Funny how we agree that people who cannot let it go, are suffering from a mental disorder, or in my own words, a bad attitude.

You won't get rid of affirmative action until you deal with what makes it necessary, discrimination of other peoples opportunities, or options. The existence of one, leads to the existence of the other. Wrong though they may be.

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Geeze... Name ONE person alive that was a slave... or even who had a mother or father that was a slave. You can't...

They need therapy , that's what they need... to get over it.

You are aware American Indians held slaves... and not black ones either, other indians and whites... you don't hear their descendants crying about it all the damn time. That's because they got over it.

They need psychiatric help... thats what they all need.

Not a damn free ride for being lazy wastes of human flesh.

And that's all the whiners are... nothing more. Everyone else gets it...

But then... Democrats are today's KKK. They are the biggest group of rascists who practice and defend discrimination. Obviously THEY think they are superior to the people they discriminate against... you know... just like the KKK used to do.

Democrats don't believe in equality... and they certainly don't practice it.

Lazy people have less opportunities, because they are lazy. They ALL get a free education... and what is the graduation rate today? Among Minorities?. and exactly WHOSE fault is that? Not mine, not yours, its theirs, they own the responsibility, lock stock and barrell.

But then... lets give the drop outs medical licenses and make democrats go there... after all, they want to give them entitlements they didn't earn. Hey, lets see the left practice what they preach.

Or hire a droppout to defend you in court... why have the BAR exam, it discriminates against people that didn't go to Law School.

Why should they not get as much and the same as someone that actually went to school and studied.

Incidentally... my grandfather came here as a result of the Subjugation of the Irish by the British... I don't think they owe me anything. And he was treated here worse than any black was... I don't think I'm owed anything for it.

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Originally Posted by smoothy

But then......lets give the drop outs medical liscenses and make democrats go there....after all, they want to give them entitlements they didn't earn. Hey, lets see the left practice what they preach.

Or hire a droppout to defend you in court....why have the BAR exam, it discriminates against people that didn't go to Law School.

Why should they not get as much and the same as someone that actually went to school and studied.

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Hi smoothy,

The answer to that is no one gets a degree by claiming discrimination.

You know of some medical student dropouts who became doctors that don't have a MB BSc.

Are there two classes of MB's being issued at the moment? The lazy variety for dropouts and the gold standard variety for hard working students?

You know some dropouts practising law at the moment who have been admitted to the bar because they claimed discrimination?



As far as subjugation of the Irish by the British. Yes, you are owed something. You are owed the right of history not to make the same mistakes.


Tut

Hello smoothy:

The problem with your thinking, is that there was slavery, and then there wasn't... And everybody lived happily every after...

But, there's a lot of stuff that happened AFTER slavery ended that affirmative action is designed to rectify. You're ignoring it.. I don't know why. Maybe it makes your point.. But, not really, because the people you're arguing with HAVE a memory. Why do right wingers have selective memory?

excon

@TUT, very true, affirmative action gives you opportunity, not a guarantee.

@EX, Selective memory, and selective FACTS, but righties always have a passionate rant.