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Originally Posted by paraclete

I think you miss the point far right or far left they both have the same characteristics,; totalitarian, state control, mobilisation of the population, slavery, limitation of political activity

What we have here is an attempt to say that these things are the characteristics of the left alone

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They are... that's why I disagree with the classical left /right spectrum. Under the classical spectrum the more you go to the polls ,the more oppressive your philosophy making some centrist marshmallow non-committed philosophy the most free ? BS .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

They still have the same rights as I do regarding marriage . Marriage is between man and woman and everyone who wishes can marry if they find someone from the opposite sex to agree .

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Hello again, tom:

So, they can't CHOOSE who they want to marry?? Doesn't sound FREE to me...

I understand.. You believe in FREEDOM, all right.. But, ONLY for YOURSELF and your friends. The OTHER guy need not apply.. That isn't freedom. It's not even close.

excon

PS> What about the 12 million illegal immigrants? Are they on your list? I think they ARE.

Illegals have all the rights that illegals have under the constitution. Since they are foreigners subject to the legal jurisdiction where they are ;then yes ,they actually do have some constitutional rights.

My solutions to the problem is a lot less severe than some. Yet ,in my view ,they are still foreigners invading by another means.

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So, they can't CHOOSE who they want to marry?? Doesn't sound FREE to me...

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They can choose anyone from the opposite sex, and are free to do so , if they want to call it a marriage. I deny them nothing regarding rights.

Hello again, tom:

We can go on and on, as we have over the years... However, it'll do no good.. After pointing out that you have a LIST of people who DON'T qualify for freedom in your book, you STILL have the gall to say that YOUR party is the FREEDOM party, when I've shown time and time again, that you're not.

I see that my work here is NOT yet complete.

excon

I said nothing about 'Party' . I am unaffiliated .

Now you've gone from 'constitutional rights' to 'freedom' . Make up your mind. BTW.. I said nothing of 'freedom 'either... I said liberty.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I said nothing about 'Party' . I am unaffiliated .

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Really :D

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Originally Posted by tomder55

BTW.. I said nothing of 'freedom 'either... I said liberty.

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Liberty - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

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the quality or state of being free:

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What's your definition?

Read some Thomas Hobbes, John Locke ,John Stuart Mill .That will give you a better idea of liberty than Webster.

So we must always assume you are using connotations instead of the usual denotations?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

They can choose anyone from the opposite sex, and are free to do so , if they want to call it a marriage. I deny them nothing regarding rights.

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Hello again, tom:

They can choose from a list of people that you APPROVE of. If they DON'T pick somebody from YOUR list, they get NO rights..

So, they're free all right - to do what YOU want them to do... That ain't freedom. It ain't close. It ain't liberty either.

excon

Why ? Have I outlawed their behavior ? No . Do they get the same cohabitation rights as any other couple ? Under my plan yes.

Just to get us back on theme, the spooks will now help the police find the organisers of the UK riots
MI5 called in to find organisers of riots
Seems it takes some experise to break through the encription of our more up market devices and so the full force of the state is used to spoil the fun of the rioters. Just how much will they spend to find that 12year old

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Originally Posted by tomder55

They are .... that's why I disagree with the classical left /right spectrum. Under the classical spectrum the more you go to the polls ,the more oppressive your philosophy making some centrist marshmallow non-committed philosophy the most free ? BS .

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Hi Tom,

I think I get it.

You see the classical left/right spectrum as having fascism on the right side. I think you want it on the left side along with totalitarianism, theocracy, socialism and communism.

On that basis there is no such thing as right wing theism, right wing totalitarianism and right wing fascism? If this is the case then there needs to be a rewriting of history and political science books.


Tut

Tut ;let's start with a less linear spectrum... that may do well for elementary understanding of history but is completely inadequate for understanding politics beyond a basal level .

Clete ;the State is going to use the same technology used by the thugs to track down the ring leaders and agitators. Excon thinks the state is oppressive if it does so . My position has been more nuianced so I ask again... When /where is the line crossed ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Tut ;let's start with a less linear spectrum....that may do well for elementary understanding of history but is completely inadequate for understanding politics beyond a basal level .

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Hi Tom

It seems to me your political analysis fits very well into a linear representation. Isn't that why you posed such a representation in the first place?

Adding further axes to the spectrum would only serve to support my position. That is you cannot represent politics as a one dimensional representation.

Tut

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Clete ;the State is going to use the same technology used by the thugs to track down the ring leaders and agitators. excon thinks the state is oppressive if it does so . My position has been more nuianced so I ask again... When /where is the line crossed ?

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It is hard to know when the line is crossed Google (gmail)was just used to track down the hoax bomber here as was security cameras, so a crime was committed and a criminal found, even though he had fled to the US, but what we are speaking about here is something preemptive, police hanging out on Facebook, etc looking for a possible flash event, so they need some sort of alert mechanism unless they are targeting a particular individual and that makes whatever they are doing presumptive. Their software will be the sort used by national security services to search for particular word associations. Twitter should be very concerned because this strikes at the very heart of the service they provide and provides a net which might trap innocent individuals who will have to prove their innocence. This is not France, we have the right of the presumption of innocence

There are people here who claim Lincoln abused executive powers even as rebel armies were threatening to invade the Capitol.

Under classical liberal philosophy (Locke) sometimes the executive must exert authority in meeting
'exigencies' or “emergencies” for which the legislative power provided no relief
Or existing law granted no necessary remedy. He did not regard this prerogative as
Limited to wartime, or even to situations of great urgency. It was sufficient if the
“public good” might be advanced by its exercise. Here in the US it is called 'implied powers' of the President .

That's OK by me in a nation that can hold the executive accountable. But the same procedures you say the Brits will use has been practiced by the Iranian regime to dismantle a legitimate revolution against a real tyranny.

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Tom

It seems to me your political analysis fits very well into a linear representation. Isn't that why you posed such a representation in the first place?.

Adding further axes to the spectrum would only serve to support my position. That is you cannot represent politics as a one dimensional representation.

Tut

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No I posted it to dispute this outrageous contention that national socialism has anything in common with a 'conservative' (ie classical liberal ) philosophy.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

No I posted it to dispute this outrageous contention that national socialism has anything in common with a 'conservative' (ie classical liberal ) philosophy.

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Hi again Tom,

If you reject the simplified linear representation for a 'complex' representation then you would have to support the idea that national socialism has at least a limited amount of things in common with the conservative position. This type of approach is reflected in the article you posted in relation to the economic similarities of socialism and fascism. That is the nature of the multiple axis model, which I agree is more accurate.

However, you can't assign a separate category for conservatism because you feel it is somehow different. You can do this in a one dimensional representation.

Tut

If I'm going to post a linear spectrum then I'm going to assign polls that I think are more accurate.
If liberty is defined in the amt of control the government has on the individual then I would place conservatism on the end that reflects more liberty... and socialistic models ,that concede liberties to the state ,on the other side of the spectrum .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

if I'm going to post a linear spectrum then I'm going to assign polls that I think are more accurate.
If liberty is defined in the amt of control the government has on the individual then I would place conservatism on the end that reflects more liberty ...and socialistic models ,that concede liberties to the state ,on the other side of the spectrum .

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Hi Tom,

If that is what you are trying to demonstrate then the linear model serves that purpose well. I think most people would agree that conservatism reflects more liberty.

A complexer model demonstrates the similarities and differences found within the varies ideologies.

Tut