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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

It IS interesting that you bring this up... Tis true, the first white men who didn't respect OUR borders brought along disease and pestilence. What people it didn't kill, they did.

So, given our own history, I'd worry too. But, you gotta consider that not all peoples are as barbaric as we were.

excon

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It doesn't take a barbarian to kill hundreds, even thousands of people. It just takes one illegal alien with a killer strain of anti-biotic resistant swine flu. One guy, feeling perfectly healthy but carrying the disease in an incubating state, who crosses the border, and gets sick.

Read "The Stand" by Stephen King. Just one Captain Tripps can wipe out all of North America. Just one Typhoid Mary with a particularly killer strain of a disease can wipe out whole cities. It has happened before... not on the scale of The Stand, to be sure, but it has happened.

The Bubonic Plague wiped out 50-60% of Europe's population between 540 and 750 CE.

The Black Plague killed over 25 million in a 5 year period in the mid 14th century.

In 50 years, between 1518 and 1568, the Mexican population dropped from 20 million to 3 million due to Typhus and Smallpox brough over by Europeans.

In 1918, the Spanish Flu killed 25-50 million people or about 2% of the world's population at that time.

Today, 250,000 to 500,000 people die each year of the COMMON flu. Swine flue is more virulent.

One accident is all it takes to turn this from a pandemic to an EPIDEMIC.

Why should we not protect ourselves by controlling the borders?

Elliot

NK can you legally cross the border into the US without going through a check point . The answer is no. Can I legally go into Canada without going through a border check point . No .

Why should our southern border be an exception to that rule ?

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I never get "checked" before I cross the border, nor has anyone I know been checked, in fact that simply doesn't happen.

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But it CAN happen. If you come in legally, you CAN be checked before entering. If you come in illegally, you can't be checked.

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Is Mexico and all its citizens always been considered a high-risk country for diseases?

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I don't about "always" or "all citizens", but I would suspect that it has been on the high-risk list for a while now. Several decades, at the very least. Mexico, because of its poverty, is a hotbed of disease. The people live both in squalor and in proximity to each other, at least in the cities. As a result, disease spreads and mutates very easily in Mexico. It is the same in most other South American countries, much of Asia, Africa and parts of Europe as well. So ICE is SUPPOSED to do a more thorough check of people entering from those countries than from lower risk countries. Whether they are doing a good job, I don't know. Given the swine flu pandemic, I would HOPE that they are working with the CDC to check high-risk entrants for disease.

But I DO know that if Mexicans come in without going through customs, there is NO WAY they are being checked. There is not way to control disease at the point of entry if we don't control the point of entry. And that is the only way to control the spread of disease in a pandemic environment.

Elliot

Just saying that "bringing in diseases" isn't really a valid argument, just a straw man argument.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Just saying that "bringing in diseases" isn't really a valid argument, just a straw man argument.

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Tell that to the American victims of tuberculosis... a disease that had been eradicated from the United States in the 60s, but is back on the rise again, with carriers of the disease coming from Mexico and Africa and other impoverished areas.

I think it's a very valid argument for border control.

Elliot

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Just saying that "bringing in diseases" isn't really a valid argument, just a straw man argument.

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a straw man only if you ignore the costs to the public for things like free healthcare for illegals and the greater public risk .

I know all my ancestors went through a medical screening before entering NYC.

Malaria was eradicated in the US and is now making a comeback . We used to never have cases of Dengue. There were only 900 cases of Leprosy in half a century prior to 2002 . Now there are 9000 cases in the US mostly among the illegal population.
The United States currently has one of the lowest rates of TB in the world.Mexico has one of the highest in the world . It is very expensive to treat a case of TB .Yet that is what our public health system is expected to absorb.
The list of diseases being transported into the country goes on .

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Tell that to the American victims of tuberculosis... a disease that had been eradicated from the United States in the 60s, but is back on the rise again, with carriers of the disease coming from Mexico and Africa and other impoverished areas.

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Y'know people entering legally can also carry the disease. Anyway I am on your side, you should indeed wall yourself in.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Y'know people entering legally can also carry the disease. Anyway I am on your side, you should indeed wall yourself in.

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Yes, they can. And if they come in legally, we can check them first. That is, in fact, part of ICE's job, as I have stated before. But if they come in illegally, they can't be checked first.

Elliot

Sounds like a lot of you are watching a little too much Lou Dobbs.

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Originally Posted by Gsxr13

Sounds like a lot of yall are watching a lil too much Lou Dobbs.

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Or someone revived a thread from 2005, when the debate was hot and heavy.

What ever it takes to keep them out, they are invaders it's just that they aren't trying to take over by military means, yet. You need to get a real perspective here, the invaders are not just some poor, down trodden, sods looking for a better life, they are people who have decided, without invitation, that they are going to take your job, eat your food and live next to you or even at your place, whether you like it or not. They have no respect for your laws, for your government or even for you.

I wish we could build a fence along our border with Indonesia, it would be much easier than chasing Indonesian boats filled with people around the Indian ocean. They are even delivering them right to the detention centre now

I thought that this would fit perfectly here: :)

Mexico Builds Border Wall To Keep Out US s | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

NK,

Regarding being checked at the Canadian border... Eric Hastings has a travel show on ABC radio and was discussing travel to the Canadian side of Niagra Falls this past Sunday. He was commenting that those on the bus with him were omplaining about the extra 10 minutes it took for American customs officials to check the passports of the American citizens who were returning from Canada at the end of the day. (His complaint was that these people need to ease up a bit and just deal with it, even if it costs them 10 whole minutes.)

Clearly someone is checking border crossings at Canadian border.

My point is simply that we should be doing the same thing at the Mexican border... we should be checking passports so we know who is entering.

Why is the idea of border enforcement so despicable to some people?

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Clearly someone is checking border crossings at Canadian border.

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Yup, that's a new thing very recently.
As much of my technical work is in tourism we were worried about possible declining tourism numbers because so few americans hold a passport and that the additional hassle might affect travel. So far the number of travellers are consistent with last year <fingers crossed>. And no, they aren't checking them for diseases.

I'm visiting in 3 weeks... like it or not .

Cool! I'll be in upstate NY in about a month. Whole family has passports since we go to Boston once a year as well.

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Yup, that's a new thing very recently.
As much of my technical work is in tourism we were worried about possible declining tourism numbers due to the fact that so few americans hold a passport and that the additional hassle might affect travel. So far the number of travellers are consistent with last year <fingers crossed>. And no, they aren't checking them for diseases.

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For the sake of both our economies, I hope that travel between our countries remains strong as well. IF travel from the USA to Canada tapers off, it won't be because of a lack of passports, which are easy enough to get. It will be a sign that Americans can't afford to travel for their vacations.

No they are NOT checking for disease right now. But they CAN check for disease. If the Swine Flu gets as bad as some suggest it might this winter, we may see exactly that. Border enforcement officials on both sides may require either a doctor's note showing a clean bill of health or a medical check for swine flu (with quarantine until they are cleared) before allowing any border crossings and possible spread of the disease in either direction. It would only make sense to do it as a precautionary measure.

The point is that if there is a border checkpoint, such things CAN be checked, whereas if people come in illegally without passing a border checkpoint, they cannot be checked, and thus become high-risk possibilities for contagion. IF your desire is to stop the spread of contagion between countries, the only way to do it is through tight control of borders.

All I am saying is that we should have the same standards for our Southern border as we have for our Northern border. Why is that so wrong?

Elliot

I can't wait . Will spend the week hiking in the parks near Quebec City .

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

All I am saying is that we should have the same standards for our Southern border as we have for our Northern border. Why is that so wrong?

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Hello again, El:

There's nothing wrong with it. It's a WONDERFUL idea. All you have to do now is pass laws and implement them that allows people to come in according to OUR standards.

But, it takes MORE than just wanting. It actually takes GOVERNING. We don't have laws like that right now... So, people sneak in - even the diseased ones. Oh, I know you think we do, but you're wrong. So, the thing to do is actually pass laws that work instead sniveling about people breaking the law.

You DO know, that they're only supplying the DEMAND that we create. You know, that right wing economic stuff. It should be understandable...

Or do you think the Mexicans would RATHER break the law?? I'll bet you think that crap.

excon