Wolverine, You guys are sound wrapped up with communism that you can't see that a simple gesture of helping your fellow human is a good thing without thinking it is the fall of democracy.

You are going to be taxed for every dollar you earn then some, So spare that dollar for some kid in Africa to receive free healthcare and give it to your neighbour

If you really want to make this an American vs England thing then please start a new thread, lets see how much the colonialists have learnt in 200 years!

No offence to anybody else, except wolverine :)

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Excuse me?

I listed 10 concrete, REAL steps to lower the cost of health care and make more accessible to those who cannot afford it.

Which of those was "what if"? Which of them was not clear cut?

In fact, the first one I listed, making all medical care and medical insurance expenses pre-tax, would cause an immediate decrease in costs to the consumer of 15-30% as soon as it is implemented.

You don't consider that a concrete step toward making health care more affordable and more accessible?

Elliot

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Obviously I don't or I wouldn't have responded in the fashion I did.

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Originally Posted by phlanx

Wolverine, You guys are sound wrapped up with communism that you can't see that a simple gesture of helping your fellow human is a good thing without thinking it is the fall of democracy.

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You have finally got to the nub of the debate on health care in the US; paranoia about communism.

The right in the US equates socialism as being communism and therefore un-american as if being un-american is necessarily a bad thing. These guys are more brainwashed than the Russian communists used to be.

Let's face it the US doesn't spend many dollars for a kid in Africa to have health care because they believe that kid should pay its own way the same way they expect their own people to pay their own way. The Darwinian anthem of survival of the fittest is sung in the US every day and being fit equates to having money. Even if all the money they spend on foreign aid were diverted to paying for health care in the US it would make no difference at all, because it is the system and the thinking behind the system that needs reform and it starts with the premise that the rights they so fervently espouse include a right to health care

Hello again, clete:

**greenie**

excon

Well said Paraclete!! See the Commonwealth isn't dead :)

Anyway, just read The Senete Committee has voted in favour of the Health reform

Can anybody here explain how a law becomes a law in America - short and brief please :) In otherwords, what happens now after the Senete Committee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phlanx

Wolverine, You guys are sound wrapped up with communism that you can't see that a simple gesture of helping your fellow human is a good thing without thinking it is the fall of democracy.

You are going to be taxed for every dollar you earn then some, So spare that dollar for some kid in Africa to receive free healthcare and give it to your neighbour

If you really want to make this an American vs England thing then please start a new thread, lets see how much the colonialists have learnt in 200 years!

No offence to anybody else, except wolverine :)

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To repeat Tom's question, where is the benevolence in being FORCED to give charity?

Or to put it another way...

There is the story of the Conservative and the Liberal who were walking together when they passed a homeless person on the street. The Conservative reached into his wallet and handed the homeless person a $5 bill. The Liberal was very impressed with this show of kindness and resolved to be charitable as well.

They continued to walk along the same road when they passed another homeless person. Immediately the Liberal reached into the pocket of the Conservative, grabbed the Conservative's wallet, pulled out a $100 bill and handed it to the homeless person.

That's the difference between YOUR gesture of "kindness" and the ones WE undertake. Ours are by choice based on what wish to contribute, while yours are mandatory and way too expensive. And not particularly charitable when you are doing it with other people's money.

And yet, despite our belief that the government has no place in giving charity FOR us, we STILL give more charity than you do... even with your government chipping in your money for you. By a factor of more than 2:1.

Ain't that something... we "greedy" Americans, who are "too stuck" on "avoiding communism" because we are "too individualistic" are more charitable in the real world than you more liberal, open-minded, even-handed Brits. Or the French. Or the Canadians. Or pretty much anyone else on Earth.

See, it isn't a USA vs. UK thing. It's a capitalism vs. socialism thing. Yours is a socialist country in all but name. (So is France and most of the rest of the European world. Canada too.) And yet despite that socialist attitude, you guys end up LESS charitable than us "greedy capitalists" by an order of magnitude. And then you claim that we should be even MORE charitable by having the government FORCE it on us. Nice of you to be so charitable with OUR money.

But we ain't buying what you are selling.

Well... excon is, but then he's excon.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by phlanx

Can anybody here explain how a law becomes a law in America - short and brief please :) In otherwords, what happens now after the Senete Committee

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Hello again, p:

I'll make it as short as I know how. There will be a conference in the senate to reconcile the two bills. The other one already passed its committee. Then they'll send the reconciled bill over to the house where they have 3 or 4 bills of their own. They'll be reconciled down to one, and then it's back to the senate for a final reconciliation. Then it'll be sent to the president.

excon

Funny isn't it... the people who seem to agree with Phlanx (from the UK) are NK (Canadian), Paraclete (Australian) and excon (from whatever planet he's from).

I don't see very many American's joining up with phlanx's point of view. Again, with the exception of excon.

The people who agree with his point of view seem to be the people who already LIVE under socialist systems.

Wonder why that is...

Elliot

You realize that Canada and the US are so incredibly similar - that must mean that you are already socialist - welcome!

Firstly Excon - that's brief and just right - thanks mate

Secondly, Wolverine, you are calling our country Solcialist, WOW, need a history book there I think

WWII broke us, and it took our entire Empire, to hold back Hitler before someone else decided to bring in some help, since then we have been rebuilding our country, to where we share the table on every global issue, not bad for a country that has a land mass of an ant in comarison

While Germany, France, and Japan too name a few were being set up and rebuilt after WWII, it was the victors who had to do it themselves

What England has been great at doing is setting up trade routes, so when we give to charity it is to teach a man to fish, not just give him a fish and ask if he is grateful

Socialist are we? We are the grandfathers of trade pal!

France and germany though - hell yeah there socialist up to the eyeballs!

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

You realize that Canada and the US are so incredibly similar - that must mean that you are already socialist - welcome!

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Well, under Obama we're getting there. But there is still One HUGE difference... we don't have socialized medicine. We haven't nationalized that particular 20% of our economy. And we're working on getting the auto manufacturers out of the hands of the government, and the banks, investment houses and insurance companies too.

The biggest similarity between us is language. Unfortunately under Obama the similarities are becoming more and greater.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

See, it isn't a USA vs. UK thing. It's a capitalism vs. socialism thing.

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Hello again, Elliot:

No it isn't. It's a which socialist program you CHOOSE not to like. You're certainly happy with our socialistic fire department, police department, military and highway departments. It's fine with you that we, together, socialistically own and control our water and electricity. We combine together in a SOCIAL contract to have the city remove or trash and clean our streets.

So, it's not the "ism" thing you would have us believe. It's how you Pick which part of government to fawn over. Because as has been established, you ARE a lover of government services.

excon

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Funny isn't it... the people who seem to agree with Phlanx (from the UK) are NK (Canadian), Paraclete (Australian) and excon (from whatever planet he's from).

I don't see very many American's joining up with phlanx's point of view. Again, with the exception of excon.

The people who agree with his point of view seem to be the people who already LIVE under socialist systems.

Wonder why that is...

Elliot

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Because Elliot some of us enjoy the benefits of such a system particularly in health care where the worry of how we are going to meet the bills is taken away for the average person and placed on a government that actually does have the welfare of its citizens in mind and I speak for myself but yes we do LIVE and LIVE very well. It has taken a long time to get here but my standard of living is very good and I can afford all that I need and my society has less violence and no need of a gun toting populace to have security

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

The biggest similarity between us is language.

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You don't travel much do you? There's a whole world outside of New Jersey, you should get out and visit it, you might learn something instead of being wrapped up in your bitterness and depression.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phlanx

Firstly Excon - thats brief and just right - thanks mate

Secondly, Wolverine, you are calling our country Solcialist, WOW, need a history book there I think

WWII broke us, and it took our entire Empire, to hold back Hitler before someone else decided to bring in some help, since then we have been rebuilding our country, to where we share the table on every global issue, not bad for a country that has a land mass of an ant in comarison

While Germany, France, and Japan too name a few were being set up and rebuilt after WWII, it was the victors who had to do it themselves

What England has been great at doing is setting up trade routes, so when we give to charity it is to teach a man to fish, not just give him a fish and ask if he is grateful

Socialist are we? We are the grandfathers of trade pal!

France and germany though - hell yeah there socialist upto the eyeballs!

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History lesson huh?

Remember the Great Depression? We were trying to rebuild our country before we ever got involved in WWII. And we did it without resorting to socialism. Actually we did it DESPITE FDR's attempts at socialism in the New Deal. The New Deal was a complete failure, and ended up drawing the Great Depression out for an additional 10 years more than it had to exist. So you Brits decided to copy FDR's failed model for yourselves after the War. And it has served you not at all well. YOU guys, by all rights, should have been the Superpower that we became, at least economically. You were more established, had the financial systems in place, etc. But it was us that became the superpower. Why do you think that is?

As for being the "grandfathers of trade"... first of all, you weren't. That would be the Jews of the Middle Ages... my people, as a matter of fact. WE were the merchants and money lenders. We propped up your economies when you needed capital and liquidity that you really didn't have. Because WE had developed the banking system that you wouldn't understand for generations to come.

Second of all, "trade" doesn't mean "capitalist". There was plenty of trade going on in feudal societies. Trade PREDATED capitalism. So yeah, you might have been good a trade, but you weren't the capitalists you think you were. Capitalism, REAL capitalism began with the industrial revolution, and the move AWAY from an agrarian society. It began with the Cotton Gin, invented by Eli Whitney in the good ol' USA. WE invented capitalism.

So if you want to give a history lesson, especially one about ECONOMIC history, you're going to have to bone up a bit.

Oh, did I tell you my degree is in economics and I have been in finance for over 15 years professionally? As an analyst, moreover. You are free to try to top me in economics and finance, but others here have tried. Only excon, who is a major glutton for punishment keeps coming back for more. He and I have been going at it for over 10 years now. But feel free, if you feel up to it.

Elliot

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. Winston Chrchill

Basically Wolverine, nobody here is arguing whether we are communist or socialist, rather what we expect from our governments and ultimatly from our fellow man

It is such a shame you cannot see the benefits from providing help to those that are poor, needy and tired, whatever happened to the ideology of what America has been founded on?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by phlanx

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. Winston Chrchill

Basically Wolverine, nobody here is arguing whether we are communist or socialist, rather what we expect from our governments and ultimatly from our fellow man

It is such a shame you cannot see the benefits from providing help to those that are poor, needy and tired, whatever happened to the ideology of what America has been founded on?

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Feed a man a fish and he will live for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he will live for years to come.

You see the benefits of having your government give a man a fish. I see the benefits to teaching him to fish for himself.

You want to give people health care. I want to give them the ability to get it for themselves.

You see benefit in GIVING a man what you see as his due. I see greater benefit in giving him the tools to go get it himself.

It must be all that rugged individualism.

Elliot

Industrial Revolution - let me think mmmmm, that would be us again, with the manufacture of steel, first done in a place called Irongorge Shropshire, - 20 miles down the road from me

The shipping lanes, longitude, latitude, hell even timekeeping is ours, GMT and The military Zulu Time

At our height we ruled over 2/3 of the map, traded with every country, and when they didn't want to trade we went to war and won

The empire put into place a network of communication that emcompassed the world

As regards banking systems, yes it was the Jews who came up with the basic idea, but never for one minute think we didn't have our own money, If we ever needed some cash, we would just send out two ships, a privateer and a merchant, one to nick the gold, the other to set up a trade route so we could bu the goods with the stolen gold :)

I will certainly bow to your knowledge of Economics to some degree, but please don't try me on History that is outside of your neighbourhood, the world is a bit bigger than a few blocks

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You see benefit in GIVING a man what you see as his due. I see greater benefit in giving him the tools to go get it himself.

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14% of americans can't read and write - some tools you are providing

14 Percent of U.S. Adults Can't Read | LiveScience

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

History lesson huh?

Remember the Great Depression? We were trying to rebuild our country before we ever got involved in WWII. And we did it without resorting to socialism. Actually we did it DESPITE FDR's attempts at socialism in the New Deal. The New Deal was a complete failure, and ended up drawing the Great Depression out for an additional 10 years more than it had to exist. So you Brits decided to copy FDR's failed model for yourselves after the War. And it has served you not at all well. YOU guys, by all rights, should have been the Superpower that we became, at least economically. You were more established, had the financial systems in place, etc. But it was us that became the superpower. Why do you think that is?

As for being the "grandfathers of trade"... first of all, you weren't. That would be the Jews of the Middle Ages... my people, as a matter of fact. WE were the merchants and money lenders. We propped up your economies when you needed capital and liquidity that you really didn't have. Because WE had developed the banking system that you wouldn't understand for generations to come.

Second of all, "trade" doesn't mean "capitalist". There was plenty of trade going on in feudal societies. Trade PREDATED capitalism. So yeah, you might have been good a trade, but you weren't the capitalists you think you were. Capitalism, REAL capitalism began with the industrial revolution, and the move AWAY from an agrarian society. It began with the Cotton Gin, invented by Eli Whitney in the good ol' USA. WE invented capitalism.

So if you want to give a history lesson, especially one about ECONOMIC history, you're going to have to bone up a bit.

Oh, did I tell you my degree is in economics and I have been in finance for over 15 years professionally? As an analyst, moreover. You are free to try to top me in economics and finance, but others here have tried. Only excon, who is a major glutton for punishment keeps coming back for more. He and I have been going at it for over 10 years now. But feel free, if you feel up to it.

Elliot

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Ah we have dragged out the great depression as an excuse for doing nothing. Self Inflicted injury. Just like our current great financial crisis you (US) caused the great depression with your largess and over reliance on the "market". If you are an economist you should have learned the lessons, not sat on your pedistal and glowered down at the lesser mortals. But then that's what economists do rather than thinking up original solutions to the problems they create. You didn't invent capitalism but you certainly perverted it