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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

W.G.: The is a man of the Hebrew faith called Benjamin Shapiro....he is a very logic driven thinker and debater: I once heard him express the question "TRANSGENDER" this way: There is no "Transgender" because when one takes a DNA test they are EITHER MALE OR FEMALE AND THEY ARE NEVER MALE AND FEMALE WITHIN THE SAME PERSON! Case closed.

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He is very incorrect. The DNA test doesn't say that at all.

Here's another Wikipedia article that should should be easy enough to understand:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

"Intersex people are born with sex characteristics (including genitals, gonads and chromosome patterns) that do not fit typical binary notions of male or female bodies."

Transgender has nothing to do with DNA, but a persons own psycology tied to feelings that are very strongly associated with how they see themselves and how others see them. That's why years of counseling comes first, before a final decision to proceed is made. You don't just wake up and find a surgeon and walk out a new male or female.

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The point isn't proof passages. The point was to show that there is homosexuality in the animal kingdom

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That's where you and I sharply differ. I guess you discover God's will in the animal kingdom. I look to the Bible. At least that much has become clear.

As to the animal kingdom, animals routinely kill and eat each other. Do you now say that killing and eating other humans is the will of God? Predators routinely attack the sick, weak, and young of their prey, so does that also mean that we should prey upon the weak, sick, and young?

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a persons own psycology tied to feelings that are very strongly associated with how they see themselves and how others see them.

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Isn't that where most mental health disease comes from? Does that make it all wonderful?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

That's where you and I sharply differ. I guess you discover God's world in the animal kingdom. I look to the Bible.

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The question was about homosexuality in the animal kingdom. (Ask about the plant kingdom, too.) I provided a reference. We were not talking about God or the Bible at the time. As I have said more than once, the happenings in Genesis 3 opened up the universe to limitless possibilities.

Please answer my question: What did lions and tigers and bears eat before The Fall?

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Isn't that where most mental health disease comes from? Does that make it all wonderful?

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No. You need to get acquainted with trans and intersex people -- and listen to them.

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The question was about homosexuality in the animal kingdom. (Ask about the plant kingdom, too.) I provided a reference. We were not talking about God or the Bible at the time. As I have said more than once, the happenings in Genesis 3 opened up the universe to limitless possibilities.

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Yes we have been talking about the Bible and homosexuals. Your reference to Gen. 3 is so vague and pointless as to be meaningless and can easily be taken to mean that anything that happened after the fall of man is just fine with God. But the fall was not a good event but a bad one, and the consequences are not treated as desirable at any point. You must have scripture if you want to discuss the Bible. We just completely differ there.

It is only in this "enlightened" age in which we live that the crazy idea that there are more than two genders has come forward. People mistakenly have all kinds of ideas about themselves. Some people genuinely think they are a dog. Others think they are a god. Yet others are convinced they can fly or they need to kill him/her self. We don't accept those things as normal. Well, you might, but most people don't, and nor should we accept the silly notion that a boy is really a girl or vice versa.

Fact is the Creator is the final judge, not anyone here.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Yes we have been talking about the Bible and homosexuals. Your reference to Gen. 3 is so vague and pointless as to be meaningless and can easily be taken to mean that anything that happened after the fall of man is just fine with God. But the fall was not a good event but a bad one, and the consequences are not treated as desirable at any point. You must have scripture if you want to discuss the Bible. We just completely differ there.

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LGBT individuals have been in this world since Genesis 3. Native Americans called them "two-spirit" people who were accepted and respected by their tribes. Read more here:
https://www.nicoa.org/two-spirit-persons/

You've never studied Greek and Roman history and read about gays and lesbians? I have no doubt bi and trans were there too.

Here's more to read about non-binary individuals (and yes, even in ancient Jewish texts):
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

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It is only in this "enlightened" age in which we live that the crazy idea that there are more than two genders has come forward. People mistakenly have all kinds of ideas about themselves. Some people genuinely think they are a dog. Others think they are a god. Yet others are convinced they can fly or they need to kill him/her self. We don't accept those things as normal. Well, you might, but most people don't, and nor should we accept the silly notion that a boy is really a girl or vice versa.

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I will refrain from saying what I'd like to say. Please open your mind and educate yourself. I'm sure there are LGBT individuals in your extended family.

"There is a misconception that the concept of non-binary genders is relatively new -- that it is supposedly a product of the Internet age ... Cultures around the world have had more than two gender types for millennia. Anthropologists who have documented these roles tend to use the term Cogender."
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Non-binary_gender

W.G.: The general liberal line (I use "liberal" loosely because there are many people of all stripes saying this but I hear this idea come from liberals more often) is that homosexuality is not a "CHOICE", that you are born that way....so, I must ask this: If homosexuality is not a "CHOICE" and these people are born that way, how can you say: "Transgender has nothing to do with DNA, but a persons own psycology tied to feelings that are very strongly associated with how they see themselves and how others see them. That's why years of counseling comes first, before a final decision to proceed is made. You don't just wake up and find a surgeon and walk out a new male or female"? It seems from that quote that being a homosexual IS a choice.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

W.G.: The general liberal line (I use "liberal" loosely because there are many people of all stripes saying this but I hear this idea come from liberals more often) is that homosexuality is not a "CHOICE", that you are born that way....so, I must ask this: If homosexuality is not a "CHOICE" and these people are born that way, how can you say: "Transgender has nothing to do with DNA, but a persons own psycology tied to feelings that are very strongly associated with how they see themselves and how others see them. That's why years of counseling comes first, before a final decision to proceed is made. You don't just wake up and find a surgeon and walk out a new male or female"? It seems from that quote that being a homosexual IS a choice.

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That's not a homosexual. (Btw, doctors or therapists or a nasty parent can't make someone become a homosexual.) Tal was talking about a transgender individual who transitions via HRT, bottom surgery, voice coaching etc. to become their true gender.

Well, it has become apparent that no Biblical text is going to be forthcoming. That's actually a relief in a way. I'm pretty familiar with the Bible and yet it's possible that I might have overlooked the passage that spoke in favor of homosexual unions, but plainly that is not the case. One can only hope that in the future you will refrain from proclaiming that the Bible gives its consent to this lifestyle.

As to your ongoing wisdom about homosexuals, trans people, someone "becoming" his/her true gender, I would only comment that you seem to be saying that since these conditions exist, then it must be God's will and all is well. Does that also apply to compulsive thieves, or wife beaters, or drug pushers, or bullies, or any one of hundreds of other conditions that have been around forever and do seem to have some compulsive element to them, or does it only to those conditions approved by liberal orthodoxy?

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

W.G.: The general liberal line (I use "liberal" loosely because there are many people of all stripes saying this but I hear this idea come from liberals more often) is that homosexuality is not a "CHOICE", that you are born that way....so, I must ask this: If homosexuality is not a "CHOICE" and these people are born that way, how can you say: "Transgender has nothing to do with DNA, but a persons own psycology tied to feelings that are very strongly associated with how they see themselves and how others see them. That's why years of counseling comes first, before a final decision to proceed is made. You don't just wake up and find a surgeon and walk out a new male or female"? It seems from that quote that being a homosexual IS a choice.

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Your logic is flawed in that you disregard the basic statement

"That's why years of counseling comes first, before a final decision to proceed is made. You don't just wake up and find a surgeon and walk out a new male or female"?

​The patient already knows what they are, and a physician just verifies it before surgery or treatments begin. SOP!

Thanks WG. Obviously you know how the process works better than most.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Well, it has become apparent that no Biblical text is going to be forthcoming. That's actually a relief in a way. I'm pretty familiar with the Bible and yet it's possible that I might have overlooked the passage that spoke in favor of homosexual unions, but plainly that is not the case. One can only hope that in the future you will refrain from proclaiming that the Bible gives its consent to this lifestyle.

As to your ongoing wisdom about homosexuals, trans people, someone "becoming" his/her true gender, I would only comment that you seem to be saying that since these conditions exist, then it must be God's will and all is well. Does that also apply to compulsive thieves, or wife beaters, or drug pushers, or bullies, or any one of hundreds of other conditions that have been around forever and do seem to have some compulsive element to them, or does it only to those conditions approved by liberal orthodoxy?

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None of us knows what the Creators masterplan is so who can say? Not all wisdom is found in scripture. I think no matter the religion, a personal relationship with your God is even more important than scripture. Anyone can read a book and mouth the words, but at some point you have to tap into the source of all things for yourself. Leave that orthodoxy alone for a change.

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None of us knows what the Creators masterplan is so who can say? Not all wisdom is found in scripture. I think no matter the religion, a personal relationship with your God is even more important than scripture. Anyone can read a book and mouth the words, but at some point you have to tap into the source of all things for yourself. Leave that orthodoxy alone for a change.

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Funny. That's what just about everyone seems to say when they can't get the Bible to agree with their own ideas. I have that personal relationship with my God through Jesus. I know about him through the teaching of the Bible. He lives in my heart and it doesn't get any more personal than that, and I highly, highly recommend Him to anyone and everyone.

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​The patient already knows what they are,

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Now I really hope you will answer this question, but I doubt that you will. If the patient knows he is a dog, then does that make it so? If he knows he is Jesus, or the devil, or a lovely swan, or any one of many other deceptions, then does that make it so, and should a doctor labor to make that, as much as he can, a reality?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Now I really hope you will answer this question, but I doubt that you will. If the patient knows he is a dog, then does that make it so? If he knows he is Jesus, or the devil, or a lovely swan, or any one of many other deceptions, then does that make it so, and should a doctor labor to make that, as much as he can, a reality?

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You know darn well that's not what we're talking about. If you're going to play stupid games, I'm finished with this topic.

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Now I really hope you will answer this question, but I doubt that you will. If the patient knows he is a dog, then does that make it so? If he knows he is Jesus, or the devil, or a lovely swan, or any one of many other deceptions, then does that make it so, and should a doctor labor to make that, as much as he can, a reality?

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No doctor I know of concedes to whatever a patient wants without a comprehensive verification process so your answer is NO, and WG and I already pointed that out. Did you miss it?

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I'm finished with this topic.

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Yes!!

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No doctor I know of concedes to whatever a patient wants without a comprehensive verification process so your answer is NO, and WG and I already pointed that out. Did you miss it?

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If a man can think he's a woman, then why can't he think he's a dog? Aren't they both equally outrageous?

Maybe to you, but that would be up to a therapist to decide wouldn't it?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Yes!!

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I changed my mind.

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If a man can think he's a woman, then why can't he think he's a dog? Aren't they both equally outrageous?

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You need to meet a few transgender individuals. Did you read any of the links I posted? No?

My apologies, WG. My "yes" comment was rude.

I need to meet some mentally ill people?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

My apologies, WG. My "yes" comment was rude.

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Thank you.

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I need to meet some mentally ill people?

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You need to meet and honestly talk with intersex people whose mothers were given DES during the pregnancy. That would be a good start.