So just because MOST Americans want or don't want something doesn't make MOST Americans right.

Like the MOST Americans who voted for Obama?

Democrats (and I am still one but hanging by a thread because of issues like these) are already in deep "stuff". The Dems who are members of the majority that you say are wrong on this issue, will not support candidates who are in favor of "unwise" (per the president as I read what he said)
Do you know where all your reps and potential reps stand on this issue? I sure don't--Mine aren't talking. I wonder why?

No threat. I am in no position to make threats. I feel instead like I am threatened---My party (sorta) is handing long term control of America over to the other side on a silver platter.

Ex's constitutional stand may be best for American values but many of us will suffer for it for the rest of our lives, on many different fronts. It looked wrong at first glance and it and I haven't noticed one convert after all the discussions here. Maybe I missed it. I am tracking for and against numbers but after 84 pages I am getting buried I must admit.

As regards consideration of minority opinions, Jefferson said ""Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."
Thomas Jefferson

So even the bill of rights could support the tyrants will.

We like to listen to the people who earn their living taking their best guess at what the founders intended to say. Maybe we should study what they said at the same time they were developing our constitution.

Be careful what you wish for, Boehner may give it to you. He's not my guy but he might be if Dems accept nonsense and ignore wisdom like the top dem recently did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smearcase

So just because MOST Americans want or don't want something doesn't make MOST Americans right.

---

Hello again, smear:

The Constitution acts as a buffer against reactionary thought. That's because we don't make very good decisions when we're scared... I don't want to change THAT at all...

But, the founders didn't leave YOU out. IF MOST Americans want to change their Constitution, they CAN.

excon

Ex,

Thanks for the soundbites.

I look forward to your upcoming comments on Speaker Boehner's management of congress.

Maybe we will be able go to the mosque(s) for some sympathy but don't count on it.

When considering Jefferson we should all be thankful that he was on assignment in Paris at the time of the Constitutional debate. He clearly was anti-Federalist . Had he been at the Convention ;I don't believe we would have formed the government that we did.

Hello again, smear:

Didja read about the arson at the building site of the new mosque in Murfreesboro, Tn??

THOSE are the kinds of decisions we make when we're scared... Hmmm... I wonder if those arsonists grasped that THEY were the terrorists?? Nahh, they didn't.

I wonder if YOU grasp that THIS act of terrorism IS a result of the controversy in NY. Nahhh. You don't.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smearcase

I feel instead like I am threatened---My party (sorta) is handing long term control of America over to the other side on a silver platter.

---

Close but I feel the problem started when your government started handing your country over to the corporations (both sides are guilty). The citizens has lost control, big biz is in charge whether you like it or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smear:

The Constitution acts as a buffer against reactionary thought. That's because we don't make very good decisions when we're scared... I don't wanna change THAT at all...

But, the founders didn't leave YOU out. IF MOST Americans want to change their Constitution, they CAN.

excon

---

Excon,

**greenie**

Xoxoxox

Synn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Close but I feel the problem started when your government started handing your country over to the corporations (both sides are guilty). The citizens has lost control, big biz is in charge whether you like it or not.

---

NK,

This is getting bad. That's TWO of these I've given out today!

**Greenie**

Xoxoxox

Synn

Karm, if I knew how I would give you a greenie too.

The outrages come so fast I can't keep up. But if I were to dwell on the corp. free speech issue I would have to throw in the towel.

We all know about the 1% controlling a majority of the wealth. Some say 20% control more than 90% of wealth, along with controlling all the pols they can buy.

I'll keep trying. There is no other choice.

These issues have one thing ( a lot more if I was smarter) in common. They both look wrong at (my) first glance and they don't improve with age.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smearcase

These issues have one thing ( a lot more if I was smarter) in common. They both look wrong at (my) first glance and they don't improve with age.

---

Hello again, smear:

We're no different. My knee jerks too. I have FIRST glances. I'm reactionary. I'm small-minded.

Then, after my knee STOPS jerking, and I have time to look at these issues through the prism of our Constitution, and our American ideas of tolerance, and acceptance, the issues DO IMPROVE with age for me. Sorry it doesn't happen that way for you.

By the way, it ALSO helps that I don't believe we're at war with Islam.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smear:

Didja read about the arson at the building site of the new mosque in Murfreesboro, Tn???

THOSE are the kinds of decisions we make when we're scared... Hmmm... I wonder if those arsonists grasped that THEY were the terrorists???? Nahh, they didn't.

I wonder if YOU grasp that THIS act of terrorism IS a result of the controversy in NY. Nahhh. You don't.

excon

---

First off lets get this straight. We don't know what really went on at the site of the new mosque. The only thing we know is that some equiptment was set on fire and only 1 of 4 was actually set on fire. For all we know it was done for insurance. So lets not start with the terrorism bandwagon just yet.


Ref:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...8D93.DTL&tsp=1

For all of those who call me a racist, let me point out to you that I'm not. I have friends of all ethnic groups, white, black, I don't care about skin color, I'm a generally nice person. The thing that angers me is that Islam is taking over THE WHOLE WORLD. Now, I don't care what religion people believe in, there's a thing called freedom of religion which is a good thing. BUT the problem is, the Muslims who are taking over Europe are not just practicing their religion, they pushing to get their way, which they are. They want Sharia law in the whole world, and we all know how brutal Sharia law is. Ever hear about women being stoned to death? Ever hear about non-muslims having their heads cut off? Yes, I'm well aware of the Crusades, and how millions of Muslims were killed, which is wrong. But, for the past 400 years or so, MOST Christians have softened. And Islam? It hasn't softened. It has only become more brutal. Today, Islam is taking over the whole world. It is the fastest growing religion and grows by about 280% every year. Europe is a going to be "Europai" in about 50 years. The Muslim leaders in Europe are abusing the laws in Europe. They are taking pork off school menus, etc.. AND they want ALL of Europe to have Sharia law. Do you see Christians and Jews forcing their laws on the Muslims living in Europe? No you don't. The European politicians silence anyone who talks trash about Islam, but they encourage all negative talk about Christianity and Jewdaism. European politicians all say that "Islam is such a peaceful religion and it's an honor to have them living in our great countries". How is it great? They attack police, make threats, burn your flags, and cause violent riots yelling "Allah Akabar" Sure, that is SO peaceful.

This happens EVERY DAY in Sweden. 75% of crime in Sweden is committed by non-ethnic Swedes, mainly Muslims.

DO STILL THINK ISLAM IS SO PEACEFUL?

WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO. They clearly say that they are going to take over all of Belgium and make it an Islamic state. Which will probably happen sadly, because over 60% of new babies born in Belgium are Muslim. Where is this world going? For christ sake! The western world needs to wake up from their dream world and start fighting the spread of radical Islam. Islam is about world domination, it's not about Peace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Close but I feel the problem started when your government started handing your country over to the corporations (both sides are guilty). The citizens has lost control, big biz is in charge whether you like it or not.

---

Not corporations... the 38% of the population that pay no federal taxes... yet freeload off the rest of us who DO pay them, and then sit there and whine they aren't getting enough free stuff they aren't paying for.

Sorry, but the percentages of lazy bums with Entitlement mentalities that think they are owed something they didn't earn and the so called "Rich" should be forced to pay for it... will how we say... "Be sh*t out of luck" when the people who are being sucked dry get fed up and refuse to contribute anything.

Or like so many jobs that are being shifted overseas... move their assets out of reach of the greedy leeches. And yeah... it can be done.

Between them, the Illegals that the left argues have a RIGHT to be here at the expense of those who actually pay taxes... or the Muslims who alone have a RIGHT to dictate what they will and won't do, while Christians don't have those rights... or the gun grabbers to don't believe in the 2nd amendment rights but think their 1st are infintate at the same time... doesn't lead to another Civil war in our lifetime. Because its rapidly approaching that point.

Muslims make a Claim its " to help smooth things over with the non-muslims" which is total Bulls*t because if they gave a damn at all, they would cater to everyone else's sensitivirties.

There is NO difference between a Mohammed Attah Memorial mosque... smoothing over tensions with non-muslims victims, friends, families etc of 9/11 and the Ku Klux Klan erecting a enternal Fire Burning Cross next to the Martin Luther King Memorial to smooth over racial tensions with the blacks who hate them. After all, the blacks have no more right to oject to that than us mere non-muslims do to the Victory Mosque.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isafjordur

For all of those who call me a racist, let me point out to you that I'm not.The thing that angers me is that Islam is taking over THE WHOLE WORLD.

---

Hello again, I:

I have no idea if you're a racist, or not. What I DO wonder about is your absolute belief that this country is going to fall to Muslim demands... The ONLY way that is going to happen is if we DESTROY our own Constitution from whithin. That's what YOU want us to do...

That'll make Osama Bin Laden happy.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Didja read about the arson at the building site of the new mosque in Murfreesboro, Tn??

THOSE are the kinds of decisions we make when we're scared... Hmmm... I wonder if those arsonists grasped that THEY were the terrorists?? Nahh, they didn't.

---

No, THOSE are the lone wolfs as I believe Obama likes to call them. For the most part the rest of us have behaved quite well, both sides in this case seem to concur on that.

Quote:

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"No threats, not at all," since the fire, Ayash told The Associated Press. "We've had a tremendous amount of calls of support." ...

"We in this community believe strongly in the rule of law, and choose to settle our disagreements through peaceful deliberations and discussion, not vigilantism.. . We who stand in opposition to this mosque have made our concerns known through proper legal channels and have conducted ourselves with dignity, respect and out of a spirit of love for our community, and we will continue to do so."

---

WE aren't acting scared, WE are just exercising our rights, too, and I refuse to be lumped in with the terrorists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

No, THOSE are the lone wolfs as I believe Obama likes to call them.

---

Hello again, Steve:

So, they have to be ORGANIZED in order for us to call what they did TERRORISM?? Really?

excon

What about the Christian non-profit worker who stabbed the Muslim cab driver in NYC last week?

Smoothy--again, you go on about how Muslims have rights that Christians don't.

I don't see it. At all.

I still see "In God We Trust" on our money. Surely that's a CHRISTIAN right that no other religion has. I still hear "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Isn't THAT a purely Christian thing?

I think it is as much sour grapes with Christians that the Moslims have as MUCH power as the Christians--not that they're trying to take everythign over any more than the Christians are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Synnen

Smoothy--again, you go on about how Muslims have rights that Christians don't.

I don't see it. At all.

I still see "In God We Trust" on our money. Surely that's a CHRISTIAN right that no other religion has. I still hear "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Isn't THAT a purely Christian thing?

I think it is as much sour grapes with Christians that the Moslims have as MUCH power as the Christians--not that they're trying to take everythign over any more than the Christians are.

---

Points are off a bit. God belongs to everyone. Its jesus that's co opted by the christians. Also they did remove the break during winter as far as the name goes from Christmas to Winter Break. Now the Muslims are / were trying to push their holiday in New York but it didn't fly too well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

So, they have to be ORGANIZED in order for us to call what they did TERRORISM?? Really?

---

Did I say that? I don't recall saying that or anything close. Sometimes I wonder if you need to have your vision checked, you are a pretty old guy now aren't you?

The point you can take from that is the left is mighty quick to jump on some isolated incident, i.e. the 'murder' of a Kentucky 'fed' because of those hatred fueled by all those right-wing terrorists, while downplaying terrorism fueled by Islam with ties to jihadists as that of an '"isolated extremist," as in the Ft Hood shooter and the 253 guy e.g.

They have it all backwards, as apparently you do as well.

Quote:

---

What about the Christian non-profit worker who stabbed the Muslim cab driver in NYC last week?

---

What "Christian non-profit worker would that be? This one?

Quote:

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Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said investigators have six of Enright's notebooks, which chronicle his recent 35-day stay in Afghanistan where he was filming a friend in the Marines.

The notes do not include anti-Muslim rhetoric, but Enright does write about having a drinking problem and being a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.

---

Don't portray this is some Christian hate crime, Wondergirl.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

Now the Muslims are / were trying to push thier holiday in New York but it didnt fly too well.

---

Hello again, dad:

If THAT didn't fly, who thinks they could install Sharia law??

excon

Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
So, they have to be ORGANIZED in order for us to call what they did TERRORISM???? Really?

Speechless, please correct your post. I did NOT say that and I am not a guy, even an old one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

If THAT didn't fly, who thinks they could install Sharia law???

excon

---

Its already been tried once in England. And people fear it will happen here as well. It's a matter of who's rights superceed what. It's a give and take situation.

Example.

Muslim law says that prayer is suppose to happen in certain ways at certain times.

In this case it would be wrongful if it were a student to punish them for practice of faith so long as it was done quietly.


Muslim law says you can beat your wife senseless.

In this case the rights of local law would overstep the individual boundary of expression of faith.


I think you see where its going.

It's a matter of balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Did I say that? I don't recall saying that or anything close. Sometimes I wonder if you need to have your vision checked, you are a pretty old guy now aren't you?

---

Hello steve:

And, you call ME old?? Dude!

Yes, you DID say something close... I said the arsonists were terrorists. You said, no, they're what Obama calls lone wolves... I assume the term lone wolf, means they're NOT associated or organized with any other group. They operate "alone". Therefore, I assumed that you meant they can't be called terrorists unless they're organized, and that's why I said what I said.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
So, they have to be ORGANIZED in order for us to call what they did TERRORISM???? Really?

speechless, please correct your post. I did NOT say that and I am not a guy, even an old one.

---

Better? I knew I was quoting ex on that one, I just answered you both in one post. My points remain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello steve:

And, you call ME old??? Dude!

Yes, you DID say something close... I said the arsonists were terrorists. You said, no, they're what Obama calls lone wolves... I assume the term lone wolf, means they're NOT associated or organized with any other group. They operate "alone". Therefore, I assumed that you meant they can't be called terrorists unless they're organized, and that's why I said what I said.

---

I know what you said, I quoted it and THIS is the point I addressed, THOSE are the kinds of decisions we make when we're scared.

WE aren't making that kind of decision, WE are just talking it over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

Don't portray this is some Christian hate crime, Wondergirl.

---

Had the Muslim cab driver stabbed the Christian non-profit worker, what would you have called it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by califdadof3

Points are off a bit. God belongs to everyone. Its jesus thats co opted by the christians. Also they did remove the break during winter as far as the name goes from Christmas to Winter Break. Now the Muslims are / were trying to push thier holiday in New York but it didnt fly too well.

---

But I worship a GODDESS, and my government is using GOD.

Christians say God
Jews say YHWH, or Yahweh
Muslims say Allah
Hindus refer to Vishnu
Pagans refer to the god aspect in many ways, but wiccans generally use Lord or Horned One


To turn it around, since "god" is supposedly interchangeable, would you be okay with changing our money to say "In the Horned One We Trust"? How about "In the Lady We Trust"?

We're not talking about the differing aspects of the religions--Jesus, Mohammed, Cernunnos, whatever. We're talking about the basic word for "god", specifically for the god that is worshipped as the head of a religion. The NAME of a god, if you will.

And yes, it should be Winter Holiday. At least six different religions have high holy days that time of year--and the Christians deliberately placed theirs at the traditional pagan holiday and co-opted their traditions. I know the Christians want it called Christmas Break again--but *I* want it called Winter Solstice Celebration Break. I think Winter Break or Winter holiday is a good compromise.

Now if only BOTH the Muslims and the Christians would compromise with good grace about making it so that their religions are equal with everyone else's.

And frankly--for all the talk of taking over the world and making it Muslim, I can't take it seriously. The Christians have been saying the same thing for at least a thousand years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Had the Muslim cab driver stabbed the Christian non-profit worker, what would you have called it?

---

I see nothing that refers to a "Christian non-profit worker' except your claim, citation needed.

As for the incident, I call it a stabbing, I'd even dare to call it a hate crime. No different if it were reversed. If the evidence doesn't lead to religious based terrorism I see no need to go there, do you?

Unlike the left I don't filter everything through the prism of race, religion, nationality, gender, etc. I don't see a need for any Congressional Black Caucus, La Raza, NAACP, African-American themed dorms and all that nonsense. I believe in true integration, not self-righteous self-segregation. YOU guys are the ones that bring up race and religion, etc. in everything, not us.

Quote:

---

First off lets get this straight. We don't know what really went on at the site of the new mosque. The only thing we know is that some equiptment was set on fire and only 1 of 4 was actually set on fire. For all we know it was done for insurance. So lets not start with the terrorism bandwagon just yet.

---

I think it was those enviro nuts from Earth Liberation Front who torch buildings

Quote:

---

What about the Christian non-profit worker who stabbed the Muslim cab driver in NYC last week?

---

What about him ? He was working for an organization that was pro-mosque and had embedded many times doing charitable work in Muslim nations.Was he.. what do they call it?. oh yeah.. Islamophobic ;carefully infiltrating a pro-Muslim charity so he could make his move... attack a Muslim cabbie in a drunken rage ?
Or maybe he was a deranged pro-Muslim who decided to do a false flag attack so people who oppose the mosque could be blamed for stoking the flames ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

I see nothing that refers to a "Christian non-profit worker' except your claim, citation needed.

---

I read it first, an early report, on Yahoo News. Many sites say that Michael Enright is a senior at the School of Visual Arts and does volunteer work for Intersections International, a Christian non-profit group that promotes peace and tolerance. Michael had been allowed to be embedded with troops for two months this spring in Afghanistan. His friends said he came back a different person. He was drunk when he stabbed the cab driver after questioning him about Ramadan.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

I read it first, an early report, on Yahoo News. Many sites say that Michael Enright is a senior at the School of Visual Arts and does volunteer work for Intersections International, a Christian non-profit group that promotes peace and tolerance. Michael had been allowed to be embedded with troops for two months this spring in Afghanistan. His friends said he came back a different person. He was drunk when he stabbed the cab driver after questioning him about Ramadan.

---

Citation still needed. Intersections International, according to their 'about us' page, is exactly the kind of religious group you should cheer.

Quote:

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Intersections International is a New York-based global initiative dedicated to promoting justice, reconciliation and peace across lines of faith, culture, ideology, race, class, national borders and other boundaries that divide humanity.

---

Sounds positively progressive to me, not like any of that "Taliban wing of the Republican party" type you're referring to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, I:

I have no idea if you're a racist, or not. What I DO wonder about is your absolute belief that this country is going to fall to Muslim demands.... The ONLY way that is gonna happen is if we DESTROY our own Constitution from whithin. That's what YOU want us to do...

That'll make Osama Bin Laden happy.

excon

---

I guess your unaware that the Muslims are USING the CONSTITUTION to suit their ways. Muslims are starting to take control of the Media, they have removed all anti-Islam banners from Taxis, but they sure as hell didn't remove any anti-Christian banners. Obama is a traitor to the west for bowing down to Muslim demands. I'm disgusted how he's handing the US over to Muslims.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Isafjordur

I guess your unaware that the Muslims are USING the CONSTITUTION to suit their ways.

---

Hello again, I:

I AM unaware of that. Please educate me.

excon

Hello again,

There is ANOTHER aspect of this issue that needs discussing. You guys won't, though. You just pretend it isn't so.. But, it IS so, and I ain't going to let you get away with it...

I'm talking about HOME GROWN terrorists, like the failed Times Square bomber...

In the plainest language I can muster, you MOUTH the words about supporting the First Amendment, but you have SHOWN by your deeds, that you do NOT. You MOUTH the words about NOT being at war with Islam, but YOU have SHOWN, by your own WORDS in THIS thread, and your deeds on the ground, that you ARE!

I LOVE this country. I FOUGHT for this country. I spilled my BLOOD for this country. And, I'd DO it AGAIN. If I observed the current upswelling of hatred and violence against my people, brewing in MY VERY OWN COUNTRY, if somebody didn't DO something to stop it, I WOULD. I'm a Jew. I KNOW about stuff like this.

You do too. If Christianity were in the minority, and was being attacked like Islam is today, YOU would DO something about it. Yes, you would - and you SHOULD!

So, why is it, that you don't think any American Muslim would do the same?? Why are you unable to connect the current Islamaphobia with a rise in popularity for Al Quaida, and a rise in terrorist attacks upon ourselves? What is it, that you don't get about this? To me, it's pretty damn simple.

excon

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by excon

Why are you unable to connect the current Islamaphobia with a rise in popularity for Al Quaida, and a rise in terrorist attacks upon ourselves? What is it, that you don't get about this?? To me, it's pretty damn simple.

---

Because it's a myth manufactured by the left because they're losing the argument. There is no epidemic of Islamophobia in this country, you guys are crying wolf. That's why. It is YOU who are playing on fears, not us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by speechlesstx

There is no epidemic of Islamophobia in this country, you guys are crying wolf.

---

Hello again, steve:

If you are unwilling to see, that which is going on all around you, I can't help. But, there may be others who are not so blinded by the right wing Kool Aid... Maybe, with a little help, I can save them still.

excon

See what, ex? I'm not one of those dumbed-down Americans you were talking about, I see what's going on around me because I am the recipient of what's going on around me.

I and all of my fellow conservatives plus millions of moderates are being systematically labeled racists, homophobes, Islamophobes, "Republithugs," the "Taliban wing of the Republican party" and my personal favorite insult, "conservative ignorant dooshcopter"

Tell me exactly what I've done to deserve that? These people can't tell me what I've done, they can't point to my racist, Islamophobic, homophobic, thuggish, Taliban, dooshcopter-like behavior, can you? No, you can't, you just make sh*t up just like they do, and the more you insist that we're all those things the more you're going to pi$$ people off until there really IS a backlash of your own doing, because I for one am about ready to make some liberals swallow a few teeth if they don't shut the heck up with their ignorant, bigoted, hypocritical, hateful talk. I'm quite certain I'm not alone in that.

I hope you can see what's happening now.