I'll have to. You don't seem to have the stomach for it.Quote:
against welfare, abortion, or black on black crime.
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I'll have to. You don't seem to have the stomach for it.Quote:
against welfare, abortion, or black on black crime.
They don't belong on the wall of a public building. Then, by that token, sharia law and plural marriage should be permitted.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Plus, Jesus replaced the ten commandments with two greater ones.
The posting of the Ten Commandments was done to illustrate God's moral law. It applies to Jews, Moslems, and Christians alike. It was a terrible mistake to take them down.Quote:
They don't belong on the wall of a public building. Then, by that token, sharia law and plural marriage should be permitted.
No, he didn't. He summarized the ten into two, but at no time did he say he was replacing them.Quote:
Plus, Jesus replaced the ten commandments with two greater ones.
As for polygamy, now that we have cheapened marriage with gay marriage, how much longer do you think it will be before polygamy is allowed?
This isn't a Christian nation. No commandments on public walls. Check the Constitution.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Yes it is a nation that has lost it's soul and the commandments it follows are those of men, not God. When they formed that constitution they placed man above God and today you see the resultQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Your approach is not mine, nor are your priorities and positions to my liking, and I'm sure you don't have the stomach for some of my positions, approaches, and issues either.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Should I eat your donuts and drink your coffee too? Nothing wrong with my stomach.
Public schools are not the place for religious displays unless you allow every other religion that same option. Even Christians object to religious displays in public schools. There are religious schools to send your kids too if that's what you want. Public schools and government building should have no bias for any religion. They already accommodate private and group prayer, but you want to make them an extension of a church, mosque, or synagogues?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
There is nothing in the Constitution to prohibit the posting of the Ten Commandments. SCOTUS blew it on that one. By their logic, we would have to do away with teaching the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident. That all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." Well, we certainly can't have all that religious talk about being "created" and having a "Creator". Those men realized early on that you cannot have equality or inalienable rights without God.
it seems to have been forgotten jlQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You should read more, as the Establishment clause of the first amendment expressly prohibits the promotion of any religion. Public schools are a government function.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause
Separation of church and state and if you can have the 10 commandments then would you be okay with Sharia rules, or Hindi rules next to them?
The establishment clause forbids the Federal government from having a state religion ...period . Jefferson’s belief that the First Amendment erected a wall between church and state (his opinion that is not found anywhere in the text of the 1st amendment )did not reflect the popular sentiment at the time the framers drafted the First Amendment. The framers did not contemplate real separation of church and state when they drafted the establishment clause they only wanted to forbid an established national church.
The courts are no help . In the same 2005 session the Court upheld the removal of a Kentucky display and then allowed a Texas display . (McCreary County v. ACLU and Van Orden v. Perry).
In fact the courts have mixed decisions in all types of establishment clause cases . As an example ; some jerk objected to the display at the 9-11 museum of the 9-11 cross that the firefighters at the WTC had created out of beams from the towers . The 2nd Circuit Court in NYC said it was permissible . Was the hanging of that cross in a Federal Museum a violation of the establishment clause ? NO ! And yet that cross represents a religion.
Clarence Thomas in 2011 tried to get SCOTUS to agree on establishing a clear standard for judging religious displays on government property. He said disjointed SCOTUS“jurisprudence has confounded the lower courts and rendered the constitutionality of displays of religious imagery on government property anyone’s guess.” He criticized the courts failure to implement “a clear, workable standard” for establishment clause cases. He explained that the lack of a clear standard has resulted in arbitrary decisions and “wildly divergent outcomes.”
The First Amendment reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Tal said it so well that it bears repeating: "Separation of church and state and if you can have the 10 commandments then would you be okay with Sharia rules, or Hindi rules next to them?"
The Founding Fathers were mostly Deists (NOT Christian). They believed in A creator and that all men (hmm...) had been given rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
In a letter dated January 1, 1802, [Deist] Thomas Jefferson wrote: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions...."
I think we can all find this interesting.
https://abuaminaelias.com/ten-commandments-in-islam/
We are more alike than different even with the AGE difference.Quote:
These commandments are among the core teachings of Judaism and Christianity that are taught to children at an early age, and all of them are included within the teachings of Islam. Some believe these commands go back as far as the seven laws of Noah, peace and blessings be upon him...As we can see, the Ten Commandments are entirely compatible with Islam and they are, in reality, the essence of all divine revelations. They can be the best point of departure for sharing Islam with Jews and Christians, and working together in fulfillment of our ethical obligations...
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The Famous Ten Commandments are famous enough, but not much of a moral code.
Number 1 - I am God. All other gods are fake. (Not a lot of morality in that one)
Number 2 - Don't make images of anything, for I am a jealous God. (God the art critic)
Number 3 - No cursing. (Hmmmm)
Number 4 -Worship me every Sunday. (Morality?)
Number 5 -Honor your parents. (A nice one)
Numbers 6 thru 10 - The shalt nots – Don't kill, commit adultery, steal, lie and don't try to keep up with the Joneses)
They must have had a lot of killing, fooling around, stealing, lying, and envy – else why include those? Sounds more like a code of law than morality.
This is tongue-in-cheek but I hope the point was made.
Hardly terrible. I doubt it made a bit of difference. If you want your children to know them, home is a far, far better place for them to learn about the Ten Commandments.Quote:
It applies to Jews, Moslems, and Christians alike. It was a terrible mistake to take them down.
Apparently, you don't think they apply to other religions. As others have asked, what about them? Do you just leave them out, or do they get to post their religious material?
1802 was 15 years after the establishment of the Constitution . The framers had the good sense to send Jefferson the Francophile to France on a diplomatic assignment so that he wouldn't be around during the debate and ratification. It does not matter what beliefs the framers had. They represented a Christian people who's ancestors in many cases left Europe because state oppression of religious liberty . The establishment clause prevented a state church like the Church of England.Quote:
In a letter dated January 1, 1802, [Deist] Thomas Jefferson wrote: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions...."
WHOA!!! That first sentence doesn't exactly work with that second sentence.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
The clause makes no mention of a "State Church".Quote:
The establishment clause prevented a state church like the Church of England.
right it prohibits the STATE from the establishment of a religion . Thanks for the technicality correction. It also technically applies to a to a congressional act . But yeah it's all been muddied by the passing of the 14th
No, it doesn't. It prohibits the establishment of a national religion. Not the same thing.Quote:
You should read more, as the Establishment clause of the first amendment expressly prohibits the promotion of any religion.
I understand that the issue can be a difficult one. I view the Ten Commandments as a sort of national agreement that we consider these issues to be important moral values. We acknowledged the existence of God in the Declaration of Independence, so to further make that acknowledgement would not seem to be an issue with me. Don't commit adultery. Could we use that now? Don't steal. Kind of important. Don't commit murder. BLM likes that one. Don't covet your neighbor's possessions. That would solve many problems. Honor your parents. Well, that's needed big time. Don't bear false witness. Pretty important I'd say. So yeah, those are foundational moral principles.
Jefferson was speaking more of protecting the church from state interference than from prohibiting the feds from being favorable towards the practice of religion.
If government powers cannot reach so far as opinions, then why do we have hate crime legislation?
correct which is covered under the free exercise clause.Quote:
Jefferson was speaking more of protecting the church from state interference than from prohibiting the feds from being favorable towards the practice of religion.
That is why this is not a Christian nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Many religions, AND Deists, acknowledge the existence of God or a Higher Power.Quote:
We acknowledged the existence of God in the Declaration of Independence, so to further make that acknowledgement would not seem to be an issue with me.
No! Just the opposite is true. Jefferson was a Deist. His concern was to protect the state from religion.Quote:
Jefferson was speaking more of protecting the church from state interference than from prohibiting the feds from being favorable towards the practice of religion.
Yes, it does. It prohibits the establishment of religion. Period. A national religion would be an established religion. Prohibited.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Nobody else does.Quote:
I view the Ten Commandments as a sort of national agreement
We acknowledge the "CREATOR" in the Declaration. Jefferson couldn't have made his deliberate non-use of the Christian God more obvious.Quote:
We acknowledged the existence of God in the Declaration of Independence
No they're not. They do not appear in the Constitution so they are not "foundational". They are codes of behavior (moral, if you will) that are found in every civilization ever found on the planet. You are not even using them here as moral - you are using them as political ammo for your purposes - a kind of blasphemy.Quote:
Don't commit adultery. Could we use that now? Don't steal. Kind of important. Don't commit murder. BLM likes that one. Don't covet your neighbor's possessions. That would solve many problems. Honor your parents. Well, that's needed big time. Don't bear false witness. Pretty important I'd say. So yeah, those are foundational moral principles.
Wow, you sure got it wrong with this one. Jefferson, a man of the 1700s, was acutely aware of the damage a powerful religion could do to a nation. The religious wars in Europe were a part of his intellectual background. He wanted to avoid that at all costs so he made sure religion would have no favored or established place in government.Quote:
Jefferson was speaking more of protecting the church from state interference than from prohibiting the feds from being favorable towards the practice of religion.
For the same reason we have murder as a crime - it's bad for society.Quote:
If government powers cannot reach so far as opinions, then why do we have hate crime legislation?
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