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The only options right now are to make the pandemic somehow less serious in the future than it is now. The vax would seem to be part of that plan, but if we all wake up in five years with an extra hand growing out one of our ears, then it might look a little different. Now that is facetious, but other long term health problems are certainly possible.
I'm always amazed at how the fringe right treats this decent public servant like a Nazi. If you're looking for a Nazi, look no further than Mar-a-Lago.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
What I dont understand is if it is so bad not to get the shot then why did they start exempting people from getting it like the postal service ?
Welcome Cdad.
Thank you. It has been a long time since I logged in.
This is a case where the compliant press' fact checkers did not fact check their own . The Washington Compost's Jacob BogageQuote:
What I dont understand is if it is so bad not to get the shot then why did they start exempting people from getting it like the postal service ?
I understand however where he screwed up . Quid with the spine of a jelly fish did not want to alienate a powerful union . So he "forgot " to mention the postal workers have to comply to his EO . The cover was that although Quid did not say the postal workers had to comply ;that in fact they had to comply with OSHA directives. Technically they are not directly hired by the government and that is where the confusion came from.
The reporter buried the correction in the paper and did a tweet .
26 fire houses in NYC are not operating due to vax mandate staffing shortages. WTG Sandinista Bill ! Fire fighters rather than getting the vax or get fired have opted to stage sick outs. They are going to use all their benefit time before getting canned . Keep in mind that these essential workers stayed on the job while the city was being ravaged by covid to a point that tent hospitals were set up in Central Park ;an emergency hospital was set up in the Javits Center , hospitals in Brooklyn were lining up meat trucks to cold storage corpses ,and the US government sent a hospital ship to the city .
They are being rewarded for their heroic actions with the threat of being fired for refusing an experimental medical procedure Maybe firefighters capable of protecting the citie complicated structures are simply a dime a dozen and easily replaceable with volunteers from Long Island and Westchester . But I don't think so.
What is the experimental medical procedure they are refusing?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I don't care that the FDA was pressured to give the vaccines full approval . The clinical trials the FDA typically will rely on to decide whether to license often last for two years or longer to collect adequate data to establish that the vaccines are safe and effective enough for the FDA to license.
According to you, the paperwork wasn't done so the vaccination program is an "experimental medical procedure" that firefighters should refuse.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I can hardly find words to describe this comment.
Le the facts speak for themselves: In 2021, a month after the US began administering the COVID vaccine, 99.5% of deaths from the virus were from the unvaccinated. That includes the Delta variant.
Age is still the greatest contributor. As CDC data below shows clearly, those unvaccinated and over 65 are far and away at greatest risk. For those below 65, even for the unvaxed, the death rates plummet. As MLK said, "Let freedom ring." An unvaxed person only puts him/herself and any other unvaxed person they might come in contact with at risk. I would recommend they take the vaccination, but mandates? Not hardly.Quote:
In 2021, a month after the US began administering the COVID vaccine, 99.5% of deaths from the virus were from the unvaccinated. That includes the Delta variant.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...vaccine-status
NYC is going to be very sad when NYPD officers opt to go t work for a welcoming Suffolk County where they will not be forced to take a vax they don't want.
People are very slow to learn. Detroit, after sixty years of democrat mayors, has lost 60% of its population. Entire square miles of once thriving neighborhoods now are filled with grasslands. It's one of the sad events of our time, and yet they still insist on voting in liberal dem mayors and city councils. Unreal.
In that case, they can continue endangering themselves and everyone they come in contact with including their families and friends. Seems like a drastic decision to lose their job because of a vaccine they don't want to take. What's next - refusing to pay taxes because they don't want to be forced to pay?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
They will have jobs with equal pay initially and better pay as they get tenure .They will be in a community that respects law enforcement and their right to make medical decisions will not be violated .
Suffolk hiring over 700 cops, including possible NYPD officers (nypost.com)
Except that is not true. Only the unvaxed family and friends would be put in danger. They could choose to take the vax if they wanted.Quote:
In that case, they can continue endangering themselves and everyone they come in contact with including their families and friends.
I wonder if their children will be forced to be vaccinated for school violating their right to make medical decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
do they mandate vax for the flu ? That would be the question . What other corona virus do they mandate vax for ? They don't because it would be silly to do so .
Vaccinations and boosters are required for MMR, polio, chicken pox, whopping cough, tetanus, and many other diseases/conditions. Why not covid-19?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Those are all proven vaccines. Covid 19 is not, and there is also not a compelling reason for otherwise healthy children to be vaxed.
The question was about kids getting shots to attend school. Does that violate the right to make medical decisions?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
yes but it depends on the shots you are talking about . A shot for a corona virus would not fall into that category. SCOTUS original decision on mandatory vax was a question if the state has the power to fine for refusal (jacobson v Mass,) . The court then used this case to expand vax mandates for schools in Zucht v King .
I am understanding of the principle of protecting the people when a virus that can be eradicated by a proven effective vaccine becomes mandated . That is not the case with covid . Not only can people vaxed get covid ;they can pass it along . Covid mutates rapidly and the only argument that is made for mandating the vax is the mortality rate . That in school aged kids is a rare event . In fact ;covid mortality is less than 1% among all people .
So your mandates are more about political power than the science .
In 2021, 99% of the Covid deaths have come from the unvaccinated. Isn't that an argument for its proven effectiveness?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
It's true there are breakthrough cases and that they can be transmitted, but they are very rare and very mild when they occur not resulting in hospitalization or death.Quote:
Not only can people vaxed get covid ;they can pass it along
That is not the only argument but it is a helluva good one.Quote:
Covid mutates rapidly and the only argument that is made for mandating the vax is the mortality rate
That was true in the beginning, but it is much less true now. Plus kids can pass the virus along to their families. Anyway, should kids health be subject to a gamble?Quote:
That in school aged kids is a rare event
760,000+ dead and growing. Far more than the annual flu. Plus long Covid effects are still unknown. 14%+ infection cases in the US so far. That's almost 50 million people - not a small number. It will diminish as more get vaccinated.Quote:
In fact ;covid mortality is less than 1% among all people
I don't buy the argument that vaccines are more about politics than science. That was Trump's position and even his own Dr. Birx said Trump's lackadaisical attitude was responsible for 200,000 deaths. Other than Trump, it's always been about science.Quote:
So your mandates are more about political power than the science .
You mean like riding in buses, or riding in cars, or not getting the flu vax, or playing on swingsets, or playing with dogs, or riding bikes, or getting a Covid vaccine that is not yet fully vetted?Quote:
Anyway, should kids health be subject to a gamble?
NY Giants had 13 positive covid cases Tuesday . When they were RE-tested today only 1 of the coaches tested positive .
Giants had a dozen false positive COVID test results? | Yardbarker
How many false positives were thereon a global level that weren't re-tested, and taken as positive covid cases ?
“We got vaccines that help you with your health, but they only slightly reduce transmission.” (Bill Gates )
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FD2qhKJV...jpg&name=small
A unanimous 3 judge panel at the 5th Circuit Court ruled that the vax mandate "grossly exceeds OSHA's statutory authority" and that the mandate "raises serious constitutional concerns."
Biden business vaccine mandate: Court calls requirements 'fatally flawed' (cnbc.com)
The appeals court was responding to several lawsuits challenging the vaccine mandate, including complaints by businesses, employees, and five states (Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina, Texas, and Utah), all of which are now consolidated under the heading BST Holdings v OSHA .
Back in 1989 before OSHA was governed by hysterical ninnies they decided that "health in general is an intensely personal matter," and OSHA prefers to encourage, rather than try to force by governmental coercion, employee cooperation in [a] vaccination program.. The same is true when OSHA issued covid recommendations in June .
Federal Register :: Occupational Exposure to COVID-19; Emergency Temporary Standard
It was Quid that decided to go against OSHA recommendations after he had said he would not issue such a mandate .
The court correctly points out that the goal is not public safety as much as the government's desire to ramp up vaccinations by any means necessary .
"After the President voiced his displeasure with the country's vaccination rate in September, the Administration pored over the U.S. Code in search of authority, or a 'work-around,' for imposing a national vaccine mandate. The vehicle it landed on was an OSHA ETS."
The court also concluded that the 5th Circuit says, the ETS "likely exceeds the federal government's authority under the Commerce Clause, because it regulates noneconomic inactivity [i.e., the decision to forgo vaccination] that falls squarely within the States' police power."..... "concerns over separation of powers principles cast doubt over the Mandate's assertion of virtually unlimited power to control individual conduct under the guise of a workplace regulation.".
And that is what all the covid rules have come down to ;government power over the individual in the guise of public safety .
An Illegal Vaccine Mandate - WSJQuote:
This judicial smackdown is so overwhelming that it’s fair to conclude the Administration gave only passing thought to the law. It acted for political reasons, but even that has proven to be a mistake. The White House panicked amid the Afghanistan fiasco and Delta variant breakout, but it missed how resistant millions of people are to government orders regarding their health.
The mandates have increased political polarization, and they are becoming less popular as people see that the vaccines, while effective, do not prevent infection as well as we might have hoped. They are still worth getting, but it ought to be a personal choice. Mr. Biden chose the progressive default of coercion.
This is typical of his Presidency, and it’s one reason he has sunk in the polls. The Administration says it plans to continue defending the mandate but it will almost certainly lose if a challenge makes it to the Supreme Court. The Covid scourge has given government a political excuse to exceed its legal powers, and it’s vital that the courts rein it in for liberty’s sake.
Sandinista Bill is putting the knife in the back of the fledging NYC economy as a goodby FU
He is doing a private business vax mandate . He says that Omicron is not in NYC yet in any meaningful numbers He is doing the mandate as a preventive .Already 90% of residents have had the jab. But that is not good enough for the dictator. About 184,000 private businesses will now have to enforce his dictate .
And this is a hard mandate .There is no testing provision as an alternative for those who object. He will evidently allow for religious and medical exemptions he sees are valid .
In 2020, there were 385,343 COVID deaths .
2021 with the benefit of vaccines and other interventions 404,926 and counting .
Where is the guy on this board who incessantly accused Trump of being responsible for hundreds of thousands of Covid deaths? Does Biden carry any responsibility, or does he get a pass since he's a liberal dem?
Thats some pretty dishonest math Tom, and seems to be intentionally so, and can you deny the right wing loony noise machine contributes greatly to the continued covid crisis? I guess you have the right to spin facts and reality any way you want, as others can exercise the right to reject your spin.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
These are the numbers as of October 6th, so the figures for 2021 would be higher by now.
Sure makes Tom's figures look believable, especially considering it comes from Johns Hopkins. I have occasionally disagreed with some of Tom's conclusions, but his data is generally right on.Quote:
As of Wednesday, U.S. localities have reported 353,000 deaths since January 1, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University.
That surpasses the 352,000 deaths reported in 2020 in the 10 months following the first recorded domestic outbreaks of the disease in March.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisad...h=16f188806cc2
glad to see you here
I got the info right from the CDC .
CDC COVID Data Tracker
and explain how you think that the "right wing loony noise machine contributes" .
Americans are getting vaccinated ....over 200 million fully vaccinated so far . Oh I know the left would love to pin all blame of covid cases on conservatives . But the facts get in the way .
UNITED STATES CASES
Updated Dec 11 at 10:52 AM local
Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Illinois, and Indiana are the top six states for increased COVID-19 hospitalizations, together accounting for about 60% of new beds added over the past month.
Blue states lead rise in COVID hospitalizations despite harsh pandemic restrictions | Just The News
Tom said 385,343 COVID deaths for 2020 and 404,926 so far in this year. Add those together and you get 790,269. WG said the total deaths for the two years combined is 796,943. Those two figures are very close, so what justification is there for questioning Tom's data? Just not following that thinking.
I'm a librarian and a factchecker. It's worse than tomder posted. Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The great likelihood is that his figures came from a little earlier date than yours. But even at that, most people who work with stats realize that a 1% difference is not generally significant. It's a marginal difference not really pertinent to his point which is that deaths in 2021 are higher than the previous year despite the fact that we have the Trump vaccine this year.
I asked "why" -- not about the numbers, but why are deaths so high with all the vaccinating and boostering going on?
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