It's so obvious an answer....Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That's why no one participates here. These threads fall apart into pointlessness.
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It's so obvious an answer....Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That's why no one participates here. These threads fall apart into pointlessness.
To say that Jesus is the only way to God is pointless? Perhaps to you, but not to me.
You knew the answer. Why start grief with the question?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I didn't ask the question of me. I asked it of you. But's it's alright. You don't have to answer if you don't want to. It's not the end of the world. We can just move on.
If Muslims believed in Jesus as Savior, they wouldn't be Muslims but would be Christians. And as I said earlier, "They certainly are more dedicated to a prayer life and prayer ritual than Christians are!" And why wouldn't I, a Christian, know the answer to your question?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
they are dedicated to ritual, endless intoning the same words is a self righteous thing, but a deception that many follow
Jesus was a Jew, and to the Muslims, a prophet as was the founder of Islam Muhammad. Humans love their labels to separate, while all are the same.
Like saying the rosary?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
That's not what troubles me. What troubles is why, as a confessing Christian, you would simply avoid the question rather than answer it.Quote:
wouldn't I, a Christian, know the answer to your question?
I think Clete had a good reply, and I would agree with you that saying the rosary is largely meaningless repetition.
Why did you even bother to ask it?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Yet is there benefit in that "meaningless repetition"? Why do Catholics say the rosary?Quote:
I think Clete had a good reply, and I would agree with you that saying the rosary is largely meaningless repetition.
Don't worry about it if it bothers you so much. I love answering any kind of question of that sort, but some people don't. It's fine with me.Quote:
Why did you even bother to ask it?
As to the rosary, I'm not Catholic and not real familiar with it, so I'll leave that to them.
It is called religionQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
No, there's more to it than that. I'll do some research.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
From one site:
"With regular rosary prayer, a person will experience significant improvement in their overall mental health. Typical mental health benefits of praying the rosary include: Increased focus and attention. Mental clarity; clears the mind of distractions and negative thoughts. Better thought control and less intrusive thoughts. Fights depression.
Also, improves memory (short term and long term), decreases anxiety and fear, encourages positive thinking and a better outlook on life, reduces stress, increases ability to relax and unwind, is a powerful sleep aid (promotes a restful night's sleep), and increases an overall sense of well-being."
http://www.erosary.com/rosary/benefi...s%20depression.
Believe what you want all it is doing is inducing a meditative state
I'm not Catholic but I can easily go along with the conclusions on that website. Saying the rosary stills your mind and pulls it into a meditative state so you can concentrate on blessings from God.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
if you say the rosary as an exercise in meaningless repetition then that is all you get from it .There are 4 major prayers . The Apostle's Creed which states our faith in a prayer ;the Lord's prayer which Jesus taught us.; the Hail Mary which praises Mary from two Luke quotes (1:28 and 1:42) .Then we ask Mary to intercede for us and for all sinners . It concludes with Glory Be which is doxology in praise for the Trinity (a fundamental Catholic belief) .To the folks who regularly recite the rosary they are getting much more out of it than just a meditative state ,and it is presumptive to assume that .
Honest question. Where in the NT do Catholics get the idea that we should pray to or praise Mary?
I'm the last person to explain church doctrine .My simplistic take is that I pray for people all the time for their health and well being (James 5:16) ;and all I'm really asking for is for God to hear my prayer . When we ask Mary and the Saints to intercede we are not asking them to do any more than what we are doing ourselves when we ask Jesus directly .We are not praying to her . We are asking her to intervene .Quote:
Honest question. Where in the NT do Catholics get the idea that we should pray to or praise Mary?
As for praising her, all we are doing is what the angels did . "Hail, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you; blessed are you among women."(Luke 1:28)
The NT says Jesus is the king in fulfilment of OT prophesy .(Luke 1:32) .Mary is the king's mother (Luke 1:43).We believe in the intercession of saints . Mary being the most important saint because she is pure and "favored" means that Mary's intercession is the most powerful and important .
It was Mary after all who had Jesus' ear at the wedding at Cana .Even after he told her it was not his time yet ,he performed a miracle .In doing this he asserts his authority and at the same time submits to her request. She in return told the servants to do whatever Jesus told them to do. If a request is granted it is his will be done .
Thank you for the explanation.
nowhere Jesus taught prayer to the father and down played any veneration of Mary intercession is asking God not the saintsQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
one of the reasons i left catholicism is it all seemed meaningless. Christianity is about relationship that cannot be achieved with repartition
"Repartition"?Quote:
Christianity is about relationship that cannot be achieved with repartition
The repetition is for the person praying, not for (to influence?) the One being prayed to.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
“He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly; he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty.”Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Luke's rendering of the Magnificat of Mary and the Bethlehem narrative with the inn having no room for Mary and Joseph, and the lowly shepherds being the first witnesses of the new baby as hope for the world born in a manger with his homeless parents is not the conquering messiah many were hoping for, but one from the bottom of society in a time of political unrest and massive inequality — sort of like now.
Any gospel that isn’t good news for the poor is simply not the gospel of Jesus Christ. Period. Limited human comprehension of the world’s greatest mysteries is less important than what can transform lives and the world.
If human comprehension of this great mystery is indeed limited, then how can anyone make any hard and fast statements of truth on the nature of the Gospel?Quote:
Limited human comprehension of the world’s greatest mysteries is less important than what can transform lives and the world.
Poor in what respect?
my limited comprehension of the Good News is that it is for all. Luke 2:10
My limited comprehension would agree with you.
Your limited comprehension is more than enough for Luke's plain statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Or for this. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have life eternal."
Or this. "Look unto me and be saved, all ye ends of the earth, for I am God and there is no other."
If someone has never heard or can't comprehend the Gospel message because of mental illness, a developmental disability, cognitive deficits, then what?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Well, let's see. You have asked that question a good five or six times, so much that it is difficult to see what your point is. But when you read this passage from Romans 1, what does it say to you? "19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."Quote:
If someone has never heard or can't comprehend the Gospel message because of mental illness, a developmental disability, cognitive deficits, then what?
...because I have a serious concern about several loved ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Yet God Who extends unconditional love takes frailities in understanding into consideration.Quote:
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
It is generally accepted that God does not hold children or those with mental issues accountable.Quote:
God Who extends unconditional love takes frailities in understanding into consideration.
Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them.
Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
I can sympathize with that. I'm in the same situation.Quote:
...because I have a serious concern about several loved ones.
Even better - if someone has heard the Gospel, comprehends it, and decides not to believe that Jesus is the only way to "life eternal", then what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
Rhetorical question.
We already know the bizarre answer of the Christian fundamentalist. Even the Catholic Church, the oldest and largest Christian denomination tracing all the way back to Peter and the words of Jesus himself, does not hold that belief. The Catholic Church holds itself to be the fullest answer but never the only answer.
Catholics believe that Jesus is the only way to eternal life . Vatican Ii clarified that one doesn't have to be Catholic to obtain eternal life. One living their life conforming to the way of the Lord is saved . But the even better news is that the truly repentant can obtain salvation even up to the moment of death Luke 23 39-43
The Catholic Church teaches nothing of the sort. Your statement puts Gandhi in hell among all the others who led exemplary lives without believing in Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
They did more than "clarify". They rejected their own dogma that "there is no salvation outside the Church".Quote:
Vatican II clarified that one doesn't have to be Catholic to obtain eternal life.
Vatican II document Lumen Gentium, 16) states:Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.
Vatican II’s pastoral constitution on the Church in the modern world, Gaudium et Spes, taught that conscience is “the sanctuary of man, where he is alone with God, whose voice echoes within him”. The CChurch hedged on this, claiming a conscience must be properly "formed".
In Amoris Laetitia , Pope Francis maintained that Catholic consciences "must be informed but not replaced". And he stressed the distinction between one’s conscience—where God reveals himself—and one’s ego that thinks it can do as it pleases.
How do you define "conforming to the way of the Lord"?Quote:
One living their life conforming to the way of the Lord is saved.
And Matthew 20:9Quote:
But the even better news is that the truly repentant can obtain salvation even up to the moment of death Luke 23 39-43
John 14 6 I've done more than my share of religious discussion in this thread for the year . Happy New Year
Tom, so true to form.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
When you receive posts that show you to be wrong as in this case, you run away like a scared rabbit. I first noticed that in your inability to defend your take on socialism, meaning you were clueless about it. Now it's the Catholic Church. A man would have acknowledged his errors.
The lesson for you is to not speak about that which you know nothing.
Quote:
Even better - if someone has heard the Gospel, comprehends it, and decides not to believe that Jesus is the only way to "life eternal", then what?
- John 14:6 – Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
- Acts 4:12 – And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
- John 3:16 – For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
- Rom. 10:9 – Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
- 2 Cor. 4:4 – In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
- John 3:36 – Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
- Acts 10:43 – To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.
- John 8:28 - "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
- And then there is the Matthew 25 passage which has been posted many times.
Athos does not like to believe what Jesus said, nor any scriptures which do not agree with his preconceived ideas. That is his choice, but a day is coming when Jesus will also exercise His choice. What a somber warning.
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