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Originally Posted by tomder55

SCOTUS decision is a victory for 1st amendment rights to free exercise of religion.

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When the free exercise of religion threatens the people as in the COVID crisis, then that exercise is not free and should be prohibited.

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Why is not religious gathering essential ? Certainly a church or synagogue that can fit 500 -1000 congregants can comply with the covid restrictions that are imposed on grocery stores and restaurants.

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Good question. Simple answer. The reason is that the church or synagogue is not essential. Comparing its capacity to the capacity of a grocery store or Walmart's is a false comparison. Food and supplies are essential. A church or synagogue service is not essential. If a church or synagogue were to be used as an overflow hospital with beds and doctors, then it would be essential.

When nine highly educated wise adults cannot see this simple truth and instead get mired in the semantics of constitutional theory and originalism and philosophy, they are diving too deeply. A child can see the correct decision.

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Originally Posted by Athos

When the free exercise of religion threatens the people as in the COVID crisis, then that exercise is not free and should be prohibited.



Good question. Simple answer. The reason is that the church or synagogue is not essential. Comparing its capacity to the capacity of a grocery store or Walmart's is a false comparison. Food and supplies are essential. A church or synagogue service is not essential. If a church or synagogue were to be used as an overflow hospital with beds and doctors, then it would be essential.

When nine highly educated wise adults cannot see this simple truth and instead get mired in the semantics of constitutional theory and originalism and philosophy, they are diving too deeply. A child can see the correct decision.

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The whole thing here revolves around entry into a building rather than the practice of a religion. The practice of a religion is not prohibited, a large gathering in a building is, just as it is in any building. It seems the constitution is more an impediment to public health than a help

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I was not making light of it.

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Kind of hard to imagine how you could have meant this in anything even approaching a serious manner. "how much baby whacking goes on over there? obviously too much because the level of brain damage is extraordinary"

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The reason is that the church or synagogue is not essential.

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No. It's merely Constitutionally protected. I would add that I think I could make a good case that places of worship are at least as essential as liquor stores.

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When nine highly educated wise adults cannot see this simple truth and instead get mired in the semantics of constitutional theory and originalism and philosophy, they are diving too deepl

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Yeah. We certainly wouldn't want the Supreme Court to get all caught up in that "constitutional theory" stuff.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Kind of hard to imagine how you could have meant this in anything even approaching a serious manner. "how much baby whacking goes on over there? obviously too much because the level of brain damage is extraordinary"

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A statement of fact, your society appears to be mad at times, like too many shaken babies

So you really believe that doctors routinely "whack" newborns, that it is what Tom meant, and that it is causing extraordinary levels of brain damage? Well...OK. Don't really know what to say to that other than, "good night".

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So you really believe that doctors routinely "whack" newborns, that it is what Tom meant, and that it is causing extraordinary levels of brain damage? Well...OK. Don't really know what to say to that other than, "good night".

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well a good night, a good morning and a good afternoon to you too, and the whacks I was referring to are delivered in child raising, not child birthing. The judicial decision on whacking didn't refer just to birthing but a socitial norm

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Originally Posted by paraclete

The whole thing here revolves around entry into a building rather than the practice of a religion. The practice of a religion is not prohibited, a large gathering in a building is, just as it is in any building. It seems the constitution is more an impediment to public health than a help

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That is a valid point, but the court looked at it from the point of view of the free exercise of religion. In effect, they ruled incorrectly by that reasoning since religion was an incidental factor. The issue, as you say, was prohibiting a gathering of people in an area hard hit by COVID.

Instructive are two previous instances where the court rejected similar cases by churches. The difference this time was Justice Barrett who cast the deciding vote. Barrett is on record as telling law students that a legal career has its primary purpose furthering the "Kingdom of God". Barrett's zealous Catholicism is troubling in a SC justice.

The court majority complicated what was not complicated to begin with. Occam's Razor.

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Barrett is on record as telling law students that a legal career has its primary purpose furthering the "Kingdom of God". Barrett's zealous Catholicism is troubling in a SC justice.

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She's not "on record" as saying that. A journalist stated she said it. At any rate, it would be a perfectly consistent statement for any genuine Christian to make, but she has never stated that her Christian faith would take precedence over the law in the carrying out of her duties as a Supreme Court justice, nor is there any evidence that such a thing has happened in the past in her career as a fed judge.

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the whacks I was referring to are delivered in child raising, not child birthing. The judicial decision on whacking didn't refer just to birthing but a socitial norm

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What? The judicial decision under discussion was Roe vs. Wade. It had to do with abortion, and nothing to do with some societal norms about raising and disciplining children. But even if that was true, you really believe that some "whacks" to a child's bottom somehow induce severe brain injury???

Whether churches are as essential as liquor stores is a moot point since both can be regulated by local authority for public safety conditions regardless, so maybe they cannot be closed, but no doubt they can be limited, and or fined for those violations of public safety protocols, procedures, policies, and regulation.

I just have to think any church official that would even consider putting his parishioners in harms way would be a public menace.

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Whether churches are as essential as liquor stores is a moot point since both can be regulated by local authority for public safety conditions regardless, so maybe they cannot be closed, but no doubt they can be limited, and or fined for those violations of public safety protocols, procedures, policies, and regulation.

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But they cannot be singled out and treated more strictly. That was at the core of the case. "The Supreme Court majority said the rules “single out houses of worship for especially harsh treatment” by imposing tighter restrictions on them than on, for example, acupuncture facilities and garages.

The immediate effect is likely to be limited. New York officials say all the affected areas have been converted to “yellow zones,” where houses of worship aren’t subject to any additional limits under the Cluster Initiative. Some of the areas had previously been classified as “red zones,” where churches and synagogues are limited to the lesser of 25% of capacity or 10 people."

Now very plainly it is ridiculous to limit a church with a seating capacity of a thousand to only 10 people for a service, but that's what NYC was doing. In the meantime, they did absolutely nothing to break up "protests" of thousands of people.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/othe...cid=uxbndlbing

I'm waiting for a Cowboy's fan to sue for his right to see a game in person, but given the performance of the team that may be a stretch. To your point though, I think churches and liquor stores should be treated equally, and I'm sure that you would agree if we shut down liquor stores or restrict occupancy for safety and health considerations then the churches should be under the same protocols, right?

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The whole thing here revolves around entry into a building rather than the practice of a religion. The practice of a religion is not prohibited, a large gathering in a building is, just as it is in any building. It seems the constitution is more an impediment to public health than a help

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there are also restrictions to outside gatherings .

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the whacks I was referring to are delivered in child raising, not child birthing. The judicial decision on whacking didn't refer just to birthing but a socitial and



norm

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and I already gave the definition I used in making that statement . That is the last I have to say on the semantics .

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Whether churches are as essential as liquor stores is a moot point since both can be regulated by local authority for public safety conditions regardless, so maybe they cannot be closed, but no doubt they can be limited, and or fined for those violations of public safety protocols, procedures, policies, and regulation.

I just have to think any church official that would even consider putting his parishioners in harms way would be a public menace.

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AND as I already stated ,the churches in the district could EASILY satisfy the safety requirements that are given to secular places . The court was very clear . There was disparate treatment which made it not only an Article 1 free exercise violation ;but also a 14th amendment equal protection clause violation .

I just can't get that picture of hundreds of people packed in a church with no safety recommendations evident, out of my mind Tom. I find that irresponsible by both the parishioners and clergy leaders. I'm sure other churches are more aware of the dangers of the virus and take appropriate actions and options but it's a big country.

We've know early on that such gatherings are super spreader events. Actual data has also revealed that our response is hardly leading the world as it is but I suppose we have a right to deal with a crisis as we individually see fit. Whether it works or not is becoming quite evident.

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I think churches and liquor stores should be treated equally, and I'm sure that you would agree if we shut down liquor stores or restrict occupancy for safety and health considerations then the churches should be under the same protocols, right?

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If you can show me a Constitutionally protected right to enter a liquor store, then I will agree with you.

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I just can't get that picture of hundreds of people packed in a church with no safety recommendations evident,

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I don't think that is the result of the decision. My understanding is that the churches will be limited to 25% capacity. Tom might be able to enlighten us on that.

The church I go to has seats marked that can be used . Masks are required ;and temperatures taken before entry . The rest is common courtesy amongst parishioners . It is as simple as that . If you have a picture of any church like the crowds that were at the mall on Black Friday you are sadly mistaken. I suggest you attend one some time .

No thanks, my devices works fine. For the record it can't be easy rallying against an invisible opportunistic killer. Some manage it better than others.

yes a thousand seat church can keep within guidelines of 25% and still have 250 in attendance ......which frankly and unfortunately is far more than required for most masses . I can't speak to the synagogues .But if you limit to 10 you are effectively shutting them down. Now I am only speaking of what
I was told by a Jewish friend... There has to be a quorum of 10 men for a service to take place(minyan) . If lets say the 10 person max requirement is in place then only men could attend .
Clete and others who would impose their values on Christians and Jews by saying where and how someone else can and should worship are being arrogant . Maybe for Clete the televangelist on Sunday morning satisfies his sense of religious worship . But for most people that attend services ;it is the parish ,the community ,the congregation that is as important to them as the service itself . I have watched Catholic services on television . They do not give to me the sense of fulfilment that being at the service ;receiving communion does .

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But for most people that attend services ;it is the parish ,the community ,the congregation that is as important to them as the service itself .

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Absolutely true.

I won't fault anyone for being afraid of sickness and death or what they do about it. People tend to have intense feelings and strong reactions for darn near anything anyway.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I have watched Catholic services on television . They do not give to me the sense of fulfilment that being at the service ;receiving communion does .

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Here is your Pope - "Pope Francis succored Catholics around the world by shifting to an online Mass in response to the quarantine. His recent New York Times op-ed eloquently makes the point that the common good takes precedence over simplistic appeals to "personal freedom" in protests against justified public health measures."

Does your communion fulfill you so much that you will put your neighbor in danger?

The court proved the dangers of scientifically illiterate judges overturning government decisions that were based on scientific evidence.


"But JUSTICE GORSUCH does not even try to square his examples with the conditions medical experts tell us facilitate the spread of COVID-19: large groups of people gathering, speaking, and singing in close proximity indoors for extended periods of time ... Unlike religious services, which 'have every one of th(ose) risk factors,' ... bike repair shops and liquor stores generally do not feature customers gathering inside to sing and speak together for an hour or more at a time. ('Epidemiologists and physicians generally agree that religious services are among the riskiest activities').


Justices of this Court play a deadly game in second guessing the expert judgment of health officials about the environments in which a contagious virus, now infecting a million Americans each week, spreads most easily.

If the churches cared so much for their parishioners, they would remain closed.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

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Clete and others who would impose their values on Christians and Jews by saying where and how someone else can and should worship are being arrogant . Maybe for Clete the televangelist on Sunday morning satisfies his sense of religious worship . But for most people that attend services ;it is the parish ,the community ,the congregation that is as important to them as the service itself . .

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I don't seek to impose my values on anyone, but common sense should prevail. It is not necessary to attend every week to maintain fellowship. I have found that since CV19 struck services have changed and are diminished and the televangelist a stopgap that it has always been. My church has been able to comply with capacity limitations because common sense prevails

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It is not necessary to attend every week to maintain fellowship. I have found that since CV19 struck services have changed and are diminished and the televangelist a stopgap that it has always been. My church has been able to comply with capacity limitations because common sense prevails

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good for you . That is between you and God . I am arguing you can have religious services and common sense . It is the Guv's dictates that are unreasonable and unconstitutional

Athos don't even go to that pretender socialist . The schism is right around the corner . And yes Communion is a critical component of the Catholic faith . It is the basis of the new covenant .Jesus sacrifice repaired the rift between God and humans that Adam created ;born of sin from birth to death. Through Jesus sacrifice we are saved and forgiven . He died that we may may have eternal life (Romans 6:23)

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Athos don't even go to that pretender socialist . The schism is right around the corner . And yes Communion is a critical component of the Catholic faith . It is the basis of the new covenant .Jesus sacrifice repaired the rift between God and humans that Adam created ;born of sin from birth to death. Through Jesus sacrifice we are saved and forgiven . He died that we may may have eternal life (Romans 6:23)

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Bias has nothing to do with adjustments that are needed when sickness and death is trending upward and the options are few and distasteful.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Athos don't even go to that pretender socialist . The schism is right around the corner . And yes Communion is a critical component of the Catholic faith . It is the basis of the new covenant .Jesus sacrifice repaired the rift between God and humans that Adam created ;born of sin from birth to death. Through Jesus sacrifice we are saved and forgiven . He died that we may may have eternal life (Romans 6:23)

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it is not church attendance that secures salvation but confession of faith in Jesus, communion is something Jesus told us to do at every meal, not just in a church service. Jesus also told us to give proper reference to those who govern us, the separation of church and and state is a convenience, an artificial construct, not some sort of barrier and exists to ensure a state sanctioned religion cannot be imposed, it does not legislate against common sense

I for one don't put much faith in the options that il duce gives us . This is the guy who is responsible for thousands of deaths due to him dictates. The 4 states with the highest covid death rates per capita are right here in this region of the country . And all of them had a callous disregard for the lives lost due to their policies.
• U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista
Now il duce is self proclaiming the greqt job he did .
Gov. Cuomo’s New Book About Managing COVID-19 Hits Stores (ny1.com)

Where does he get off ? He knows he is wrong because it took no time at all from when he learned SCOTUS was coming down with the ruling that he tried to make it moot by reclassifying the area .

I applaud the Catholics in NYC for not putting up with his bull manure . While they shut down public schools for no real reason ;the Catholic schools remained open and it had NO impact on the infection rate.

The SCOTUS decision was clear ..... The decision said that said the restrictions single out houses of worship for especially harsh treatment. State action had limited attendance for religious worshippers while other businesses in state designated red zones could remain open without capacity limits.

So tell me why it wasn't bias on the state's part to have disparate treatment against religious institutions ?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Athos don't even go to that pretender socialist.

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You mean your Pope? Wow! Funny you should use the word "socialist" since when you were asked to list the "socialistic" programs you oppose in the US, you could not name even a single one!

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The schism is right around the corner . And yes Communion is a critical component of the Catholic faith . It is the basis of the new covenant .Jesus sacrifice repaired the rift between God and humans that Adam created ;born of sin from birth to death. Through Jesus sacrifice we are saved and forgiven . He died that we may may have eternal life (Romans 6:23)

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Calm down, Tomder. The issue here is the Supreme Court, not your 15th century Council of Trent. Go to the Christianity page if you want to spout your Catholicism. Avoidance of the issue will get you nowhere. You must have gotten that tactic from Mad King Donald.

Clete it is not up to you to define Catholic faith . The Eucharist is consecrated by a priest during the ceremony . It is not the same as eating bread and drinking wine at dinner . In our view there is a transubstantiation that takes place when a priest consecrates the ceremony .

And this has nothing to do with state religion or the so called 'separation' of church and state . This is all contained in the free exercise clause .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Clete it is not up to you to define Catholic faith . The Eucharist is consecrated by a priest during the ceremony . It is not the same as eating bread and drinking wine at dinner . In our view there is a transubstantiation that takes place when a priest consecrates the ceremony .

And this has nothing to do with state religion or the so called 'separation' of church and state . This is all contained in the free exercise clause .

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I know what your view is Tom I was raised a catholic but I also read the scriptures for myself and have decided that I will not take a narrow view of what they say in this regard because I follow Jesus not the catholic church. My christianity can exist without benefit of clergy if it has to

Hey, you Catholics!!!

How come only Catholics are "lapsed"? I never hear of a lapsed Presbyterian, or a lapsed Jew, or a lapsed Methodist. Only Catholics get "lapsed"!

And while I'm at it, there's "devout Catholics". I never hear of devout Lutherans or devout Buddhists or devout devil-worshipers. Only Catholics get "devout".

Ok, back to SCOTUS.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Hey, you Catholics!!!

How come only Catholics are "lapsed"? I never hear of a lapsed Presbyterian, or a lapsed Jew, or a lapsed Methodist. Only Catholics get "lapsed"!

And while I'm at it, there's "devout Catholics". I never hear of devout Lutherans or devout Buddhists or devout devil-worshipers. Only Catholics get "devout".

Ok, back to SCOTUS.

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Obviously you have nothing better to do than rabble rouse

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Obviously you have nothing better to do than rabble rouse

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Obviously, you have no sense of humor.

No I have a good sense of humour, you didn't use the humour font

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Originally Posted by Athos

And while I'm at it, there's "devout Catholics". I never hear of devout Lutherans or devout Buddhists or devout devil-worshipers.

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Hey, there are lots of devout Lutherans!!! Lapsed ones are called "fallen-away" (among other things....)

freedom to exercise our beliefs is the issue . Clete says we do not need to congregate to express our faith . I say it up to us; not up to you or il duce to decide that for us .;especially when there is so obviously a double standard in favor of secular gathering .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

freedom to exercise our beliefs is the issue . Clete says we do not need to congregate to express our faith .

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I agree with 'Clete. Lutheran pastors in the US and Canada are using the magic that is the Internet to put together church-going events. YouTube, other videos, Zoom, and other visuals/audios and virtual gatherings have become good-enough media for worship services. Holy Communion can be a drive-thru or even a first-pick-up-the-consecrated-elements-at-the-church-office and then return home to participate in a Zoom communion service.

God blessed us with brains and creativity. Let's use them!

Church over the internet cannot possibly replace the interaction of brotherhood that should occur in church. It's like suggesting I can do my annual physical over the internet.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Church over the internet cannot possibly replace the interaction of brotherhood that should occur in church. It's like suggesting I can do my annual physical over the internet.

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But during this pandemic, it's better to be safe than sick or dead. And it won't be forever, just a temporary detour in our worship lives, featuring new, exciting challenges. Yes, medical and psychological/counseling services have also gone virtual.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Church over the internet cannot possibly replace the interaction of brotherhood that should occur in church. It's like suggesting I can do my annual physical over the internet.

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Church in the early centuries was in small intermate gatherings out of necessity what is wrong with returning to this tradition