If you said something succinctly then your comments might be better understoodQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
|
If you said something succinctly then your comments might be better understoodQuote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
WG, you are talking about mass shootings. The vast, vast majority of gun killings in the U.S. are not mass shootings, and in those cases the identity of the bad guy is very plain. But even in mass shootings, the ID of the bad guy can be very obvious. Just refer to the recent church shooting in which the death toll would have been enormous if not for armed and capable church members.
Jlisenbe: No, you and I MUST BE FOULED-UP/WRONGHEADED in our thinking: I guess we are just supposed to be victims....sheep led to the slaughter....we shouldn't defend ourselves: NO THANK YOU! I have every intention of defending myself and protecting my family and what is mine....waiting for Law Enforcement to "arrive" whenever they see fit just isn't going to pass the requirements of my standards.
Vac, that's a really good point about police wait time. We had a country store robbed at gun point (bad guy easy to ID) one night a couple of years ago. They locked the employees in a room at the back. One of them had a cell phone and called the police. Twenty minutes later they finally arrived at the scene of an armed robbery. There were only two deputies on patrol for the entire county that night and neither one was nearby.
jlisenbe: Perfect example! And that story had a "good ending" because no one was killed, I assume? But there are many more stories where the ending is not so good.
In the county where I grew up, the father a boy I went all through school with ran an ABC store....one rainy Saturday night, two men entered the store and immediately started firing at him behind the counter...bulletproof glass saved his life and he was able to retrieve his shotgun and killed both of them: These vermin would never rob any more stores or hurt anyone ever again....even after all of that, it took the Sheriff's Office 20+ minutes to get to the store.
IF YOU AREN'T ARMED, YOU ARE A VICTIM WAITING TO HAPPEN.
LOL, Vac the shotgun didn't save him, the bullet proof glass did, as even those with guns can have the drop pulled on them with a well planned ambush and that lesson should not be lost. Doesn't it count that even law officers can be ambushed and killed, and regretably have been?
Talaniman: No doubt, you are right about the bulletproof glass giving the guy the initial "survivability" and you are also correct about the ambush potential for even those with guns....however, even the bad guys fear things...they don't like taking on people who can fight back...they don't like being shot at: If they know that an intended victim "MAY" be armed, the normally don't want to risk the damages of losing a gunfight: The capacity to sling lead back at the bad guys is a strong deterrent to them initiating their perpetrations....why attack a "hardened/armed" target when there are plenty of "soft/unarmed" targets.
C'mon, V7. The shooter often kills himself or sticks around long enough to be killed by law enforcement. It's a suicide mission; he knows he probably won't get out alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
He's not a "bad guy" but a very miserable maybe mentally ill person who has endured bullying or child abuse or mistreatment of some kind.
In many shootings, the perp is never found. So much for being on a suicide mission.Quote:
The shooter often kills himself or sticks around long enough to be killed by law enforcement. It's a suicide mission; he knows he probably won't get out alive.
How do you know that?Quote:
He's not a "bad guy" but a very miserable maybe mentally ill person who has endured bullying or child abuse or mistreatment of some kind.
What are you smokin', Willis???Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Aren't we talking about mass shootings? -- Las Vegas, the Charleston, SC church, Sandy Hook, cf. the list on Wikipedia (link posted in #40).
I read the newspapers, listen to news reports, and always look for the outcome and motive.Quote:
How do you know that?
Please post the list of shootings (mass murders) committed by shooters who walked/ran away.
Would six thousand unsolved murders in one year be enough for you? I guess you forgot to read about them. In your lovely city of Chicago, it is well over half that go unsolved.
https://nypost.com/2018/09/25/a-shoc...ved-last-year/
Chicago figures: https://patch.com/illinois/chicago/h...solved-chicago
As to the topic, it did not begin on 40 but on 31 when Vac posted, "Talaniman: Concealed Carry or Carry In Plain Sight: It you step into the "WORLD", anywhere in this world, you are putting yourself at SOME level of risk....but your home should not be a danger zone, it should be where you are protected. What is for certain is that Law Enforcement is going to be an hour late and a dollar short...so, if you're waiting on BLUE, you are backing up."
Now he was plainly speaking of protecting his home, but you then rather hysterically (my opinion) replied, "And how many innocent people will you shoot in the chaotic crowd that results? The bad guys aren't going to stand around, waving their arms in the air, and wait while you unpack your heat."
Vac had it right. The vast majority of shootings are not mass shootings. If someone is breaking into my home, I will be armed and ready to protect my wife and me. Hopefully it never happens.
The conversation is about mass shootings.
It is in your head. It's not for the rest of us.
How about those unsolved Chicago murders? What was the figure..74% unsolved? Did you read about them?
I can certainly understand having a secure home, but who stays home all the time with guns a ready? What of the times you are away from home? I ask that and got no answer. Instead you attack the poster! That getting to be a tired tactic.
How did I attack the poster, by asking a question? You don't think WG is capable of answering a question?
You didn't ask me about being away from home. In our state we have open carry and it seems to have worked well. There could also be concealed carry.
I conceal carry when out and about and I don't respect the demands of any establishment that says no firearms allowed, as far as I am concerned, they are talking to the wall. It is like this, I won't parse words: Sure, I can CALL the Police but I am not going to RELY UPON THE POLICE AS MY SOLE SOURCE OF PROTECTION.....Beyond the laws made by mere men, I have the GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO SELF-PROTECTION.....AND, I WILL NOT ASK FOR PERMISSION TO PROTECT MYSELF OR WORRY ABOUT SOME DAMNED MAN MADE LAW THAT SAYS ITS O.K. OR NOT O.K. TO PROTECT MYSELF. Like the old saying "I would much rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6."
I remember some years ago, during some crisis in N.Y., that Georgia was going to send Policemen and State Troopers to support the N.Y. Officers: N.Y. said fine but you can't allow your officers to bring their firearms....so Georgia rescinded their offer.
You could fit in my family very easily Vac, and you at least see the value of protecting your own, and like most gun owners respecting that power of life and death, and I have no problem there, even as you have to understand that a guy with a gun cannot be readily recognized as a good guy, or bad guy. If a trained cop can make a wrong judgement, so can anybody right? Nobody should shoot first or ask questions later and if you do, you better be all the way right or be judged by those 12 you mentioned before. Same for cop and citizens. There are always questions later! I'll spare you the stories of all the ones who got it wrong and got away with it.
I would agree with that. I don't carry, concealed or otherwise, but I have no problem with those who do. I am prepared to "defend my castle", but I hope I never have to. I don't think I'm going to shoot someone to protect my television.Quote:
Nobody should shoot first or ask questions later and if you do, you better be all the way right or be judged by those 12 you mentioned before. Same for cop and citizens. There are always questions later!
Talaniman & jlisenbe: Absolutely correct, carrying a gun LEGALLY entitles you to no more rights than anyone else and also confers a whole hell of a lot of responsibility, so you are ON THE HOOK, potentially, any time you use it but, hopefully, you get to stay alive (main point). Like you said, Talaniman: You better be right! No, the "Death Zone" for anyone is when they breach the threshold of your doorway...at that point they are consciously taking their lives into their own hands and are challenging the sanctity of your abode with bad intentions, so this is a different level scenario....Southern States have laws where homeowners are pretty much in the clear on intruder confrontation and the results thereof...where it gets murky is IF you know the intruder or if the intruder is a family member, no matter how distant...those can be challenges. Handguns connote a different aspect amongst all guns because of their potential for concealment potential and regulations for them are more stringent for them, accordingly, as they should be. I am an advocate for women learning to use guns in self-defense but they must be competent users because to pull a gun means that you must be willing to use it and you shouldn't pull if you aren't willing to use it....and that goes for anyone.
A gun is a firearm, not a weapon: A gun only becomes a weapon once INTENT is established...same for a brick or a pipe!
LOL, we had similar laws in the north Vac for gunowners and home owners, and if you shoot an intruder outside you better drag him inside before you call a cop. Yeah that breach the threshold law applies everywhere not just in the south my friend. It's that fear for my life crap outside the home that riles me. No abuses possible there? Scared cops use that to shoot first and figure it out later. Plenty of abuses there over the years. Don't get me wrong we all have fear, but you cross the line when it's unfounded.
If you'd been a cop a year or two, then I bet you'd have a different point of view.Quote:
Scared cops use that to shoot first and figure it out later
Perhaps but a well trained cop is not so prone to actions out of fear, so hopefully training will kick in before the fear. At least one would hope they are well trained to that level BEFORE they are let out on the street. If not, now that's a huge problem with a marked potential for disaster could we agree on that?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I don't know of a police force that uses untrained policemen, but if one exists, then yes, that would be a great concern.
I have experienced a few, some more corrupt than inept though, and that's even worse. You've heard of stop and frisk? Well I grew up with stop and search back in the days of my youth and being a minority in a white town carries it's own experiences you never forget just driving outside your "assigned" neighbor hood.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Do you still experience that?Quote:
Well I grew up with stop and search back in the days of my youth and being a minority in a white town carries it's own experiences you never forget just driving outside your "assigned" neighbor hood.
Not personally so much, but it has been a conversation with my kids before, and now with my grown grand kids who are more than a bit angry at dealing with it. Their moms and dads are now also feeling the anxieties on this very real and sensitive subject as I did and no doubt my own father and his father before him did when I left home for errands and such or just being with friends. It's a part of the minority experience that has a long history, and still exists whether it's acknowledged, or understood and that's the dam shame of it after all this time!
I don't expect you to understand or care, that may be asking a lot.
So your grandkids are being subjected to searches for no observable reason?Quote:
my grown grand kids who are more than a bit angry at dealing with it.
I'll tell you where I'm coming from on this. I've known one black person in my life that we could sit down and talk with everything on the table and have a genuinely honest conversation. We were talking about this subject and she told me that she had conducted a conversation with her kids about how to behave if they were pulled over/stopped by a policeman. I asked her (She was probably somewhere in her forties at the time) if she had ever had a negative encounter with the police. She said she had not. I just started laughing because, as it turned out, I was the one who had experienced unpleasant, unwarranted encounters with cops and on several different occasions, including one time when I was suddenly faced with four cops and a police dog at my school! So it is quite possible that I understand more than you think.
But I will still say that the biggest problem facing black people in America, by FAR, is the behavior of far too many black people in America. In other words, black people could promote their own welfare a great deal by making some changes in behavior that would cause them to reap enormous rewards.
Research has shown that three behaviors are important in avoiding poverty. They are to "finish high school, marry before having a child, and marry after the age of 20!Here’s the real kicker: only 8 percent of families who do all three are poor; however, 79 percent of those who fail to do all three are poor." It is beyond amazing to me that all we hear is this largely false narrative about police brutality, and yet NO ONE, including Tal, talks about this. It is one of the great disgraces of our age. It is so because it's a lot easier to whine and complain about the behavior of someone else and thus be able to avoid ME having to change MY behavior. It's sickening that we do not shout this from the rooftops.
https://lifesmartblog.com/2015/01/28...event-poverty/
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
That's what I said, followed in stores, especially higher end shops and we aren't talking poor looking kids either, but when they ask why does it happen, it's because it does, so watch how you present yourself and the way you talk, and act especially around cops no matter what! I was always taught because people look like you they aren't automatically your friend, nor those that look different automatically your enemy. Be aware of where you are and who is around you. Don't let your mouth get you kilt!
Most minorities realize how quick you can die for nothing as I'm sure everybody does and they watch whatever news like everybody else. We all do. I know it's a risk for everybody, and bad things happen to good people all the time. Heard all that but with a minority stuff happens because you are a minority.
To this day even my old butt never stops where there could be a problem, no minority does. I imagine you gave your kids the talk about those people places and things that could be a problem for them too.
Talaniman: I will admit that hysteria exists all over the map when it comes to subjects of race and Police, from both sides of the perspective, and especially with regard to Blacks. I know that Police tend to "act" differently when handling Blacks as opposed to Caucasians and Black tend to act differently than Whites when confronted by Police: So where is/what is the genesis of these differing reactions? I can only guess that much of it is rooted in a TRUST factor and there are a lot of components interacting dynamically in that equation. There is a history to be told by both sides and much of that history has fallen by the wayside because it isn't relevant anymore but some of it is quite relevant. When I get pulled for speeding (5 years since my last ticket!), I must admit that my heart skips a beat and if my heart skips a beat I can only imagine its worse for a Black man: When you are nervous, you act differently! And that is a fact. Not being nervous is a hard thing to teach and I don't even know if it is possible. This nervousness in a person is something damn near palatable to a cop...they pick up on it and immediately become suspicious of whomever they are interacting with at the time....I'm not making excuses for bad behavior, just telling you what happens.
I can relate this story: My wife had a neighbor girlfriend (Black woman) that lived one house over from us. Her husband (Black man) was a very successful Trucking Co. owner...these two seemed very happy.....but one day, that all changed, dramatically: My wife came to me and said "You have to go over to Tina's and do something, Robert is throwing all her clothes out of the house!" Well, what do you think I did? I can't deny my wife's wishes so I went over there to try and talk some sense to Robert, who was raging at Tina...he didn't lay a hand on his wife, just raising hell....Started talking to Robert trying to calm him down without being too intrusive (how do you do that?)….meanwhile, some other neighbor had called the Police: Two Police cars arrived, two cops: Immediately on enter the home, the cops hands were "on" their sidearms....they wanted to know who I was and why I was there....I told them I was a friend and I had walked over to talk to Robert...One of the cops, very young, was particularly nervous and confrontational and damn near pulled his sidearm...at that moment I realized that something bad might happen right then and there...so I quietly, but effectively positioned myself between the cop and Robert, not an obvious way but in a way to diffuse the situation...and, it worked! I swear, I think that If I had not been there that day, Robert may have been shot by a nervous young cop...and it would have been for nothing: By the end of the day, Robert was picking all of his wife's clothes up off the lawn and putting them back into the closet...they are still man and wife with 30 years marriage now.
MOST Police are well trained, I think....and most are probably good....but there are those that are better than the average and those that are worse. Are there RACIST cops? Probably some, sure...but I don't know how you screen for that. I do think that a lack of understanding, a lack of communication, between cops and people of color is something that definitely can and should be worked on.
Race "FIREBRANDS", on both sides of the subject, are a problem for us all, and it doesn't matter what angle they are coming from on the subject: The "pot stirrers" are a real troublemakers: We will continue to progress but the firebrands slow that progress rate down by a good bit.
Plus, the police are not know for their wisdom and intelligence.
The standard range of scores applied for police officers is a score between 20 and 27. According to ABC News, the average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average. A perfect score on this test, the Wonderlic, is a 50.
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/court-police-departments-refuse-hire-smart/
My goodness. What an insulting statement, that they are not known for wisdom and intelligence. The ones I know are both wise and intelligent. That comment is surprising coming from you.Quote:
Plus, the police are not know for their wisdom and intelligence.
The standard range of scores applied for police officers is a score between 20 and 27. According to ABC News, the average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average. A perfect score on this test, the Wonderlic, is a 50.
So their IQ is above average. The police I know, and I know several, are terrific, but if you don't trust them, then the next time your house is being broken into, be sure to NOT call them.
I have never seen a person yet who disparaged Police NOT call them when they had a crisis: In fact, the opposite often seems true, they will call them faster!
No one would ever break into my house. During my own experiences with the police, their wisdom and intelligence have not been real obvious. (Btw, the average IQ is 100.)
No it's not above average. Any IQ around 100 plus or minus 5 points is average. WG is correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
The average IQ policeman is given a gun and a badge - the ultimate authority outside of a court. There is also the reality that outside of the big cities and the state police the police training is terrible. They're not well-trained in the law, much less how to handle people in critical situations.
As someone said, the problem is screening. Very badly motivated individuals tend to apply for police work. They want the gun and the badge. Good psychological screening gets some of them, but not all. Just watch the news for shoddy and tragic police work. African-Americans are doubly in danger since the average white cop is not familiar with Black life, and is conditioned by media to see Blacks as criminals.
There's nothing new about all this. It's been well-known for years and the small town police departments have little funds to do a good screening job of applicants. Most cops do a credible job but too many are loose cannons.
Uhm...it was not my opinion that it was above average. It was her own article that said it was.Quote:
No it's not above average. Any IQ around 100 plus or minus 5 points is average. WG is correct.
"...just a little above average."Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
If a perfect score is 50 and the standard score for police applicants is 20-27, umm....
Yes. A little above average. In other words, above average. Not by much, but above average according to your article. It's really not complicated.
No, saying "above average" is misleading. As Athos said, plus or minus five points is still average. Didn't you take a course in tests and testing?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Oh to get people on this board to learn how to read. I'll post it again for your benefit. "Uhm...it was not my opinion that it was above average. It was her own article that said it was." Now a "little" is not a lot, but it is still some, so it plainly means above average.
If someone says they are not above average, then that person is contradicting the article, and not me. I still find your utter disrespect of the police to be appalling. I never cease to be amazed at where your liberal orthodoxy takes you.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:50 AM. |