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Well proxy wars are small scale skermishes, a testing of weapons. Islam remains an issue, but large scale war is bad for business, so back to posturing with the latest invention. US playing catch up again and you have to wonder, where were those intelligence services?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Islam itself is never the issue but which Islamic leader you choose to align with. They have a bunch of those.
Islam is an issue Tal, it has brainwashed a billion people, is responsible for millions of deaths over 1,400 yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
So has Christianity over the years Clete, where you been. Protestants and Catholics been killing each other for centuries too, and they are both Christians aren't they? They just called a truce in Ireland in MY lifetime. Now what?
War is bad for business for some nations but good for others, depends upon your reference point. The NEW WORLD ORDER GLOBALIST use war and threats of was as control mechanisms to steer financial currents and funding and to obtain compliance and control from other countries. Hell, I would not be bit surprised if Islam is being "steered" to attain a desired financial outcome.
What is absolutely certain is this: There are no "FURNACES" anywhere in this world where MONEY IS BURNED: The idea that MONEY IS LOST is a complete and despicable lie: When money is "lost" by one party of people, another party makes money: All of the Wall Street "BLACK" days have be planned and the aims of those plans was to SEPARATE PEOPLE FROM THEIR MONEY....to, effectively, raid shareholders and those in investment plans.
I have been here in a land where sectarian violence has no place. My ancestors were Irish so I know only too well the reasons for unrest in Ireland which go back over a thousand years. What people do in the name of Christianity just shows they have no idea what the message is aboutQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Paraclete: No truer words have ever been said.
When the price of a share of stock goes down, then wouldn't all of the shareholders lose?Quote:
All of the Wall Street "BLACK" days have be planned and the aims of those plans was to SEPARATE PEOPLE FROM THEIR MONEY....to, effectively, raid shareholders and those in investment plans.
That's because religion is BIG business for some folks. Always has been. Go ahead and build some of those big cathedrals and churches and mosques and temples by passing the hat bowl or whatever they have.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Ever wonder where they lose it to?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Should the value of your house go down, it is not "lost" to anyone. It is simply worth less today than it was yesterday. Same is true of stocks. They have a value that goes up and down. If it goes down, then everyone who owns that share loses. The lost value does not "go" to anyone. It is simply worth less.
it is of no consequence until the shares are sold. The last couple weeks during the adjustment over the coronavirus scare ,I moved some money from guaranteed funds to stable forune 500 funds. Glad I did .
The "make money, you have to spend money": When the shares go down, your capacity buy other shares based off of profits from the share you own also goes down.....such is the explanation of losses: the engine of Wall Street is to buy shares at a lower price, allow those share to increase in value and built revenue off those shares, and reinvest the profits from those original shares into more shares.....when your shares lose value, your capacity "reinvest" comes to a halt: The Financial Carnot Cycle comes to an end. When the BLACK Wall Street Days hit, there are big panic sell offs and those with BIG MONEY reap the rewards of these bargain basement selloffs.....Money is not LOST, as in "burned" up, it transfers to the magnets of the BIGGEST MONEY HOLDERS, who makes money, while the little guys (John Publics) lose their arses!
So if I'm a BIG MONEY HOLDER, and I own some stocks which go down in value, how does that transfer money to me?Quote:
Money is not LOST, as in "burned" up, it transfers to the magnets of the BIGGEST MONEY HOLDERS, who makes money, while the little guys (John Publics) lose their arses!
jlisenbe: It doesn't transfer to you.....you, as a BIG MONEY HOLDER, holds onto those stocks and don't move anything when the value is down, they have millions of shares....they sell when the values increase....the same methodology is employed by Day Traders: they only need pennies on the dollar movements to generate large financial gains....The waiting game is for the small players to dump at reduced values: The biggest players can hold their breath the longest: Big Money is permits discipline.
I don't think that's true, but even if it is, that's just strategy and anyone can employ it if they want to. What you described earlier was a sinister plot to manipulate the stock market to the advantage of the super rich. " All of the Wall Street "BLACK" days have be planned and the aims of those plans was to SEPARATE PEOPLE FROM THEIR MONEY....to, effectively, raid shareholders and those in investment plans." It's the old familiar song of how the wealthy become even more wealthy by using cut-throat, illicit tactics against everyone else. I just don't think that is normally the case. The rich usually become rich by exercising self discipline, hard work, and smart work.Quote:
The waiting game is for the small players to dump at reduced values: The biggest players can hold their breath the longest: Big Money is permits discipline.
jlisenbe: I am not talking about or referring to "rich" as you or I know them...I have known billionaires on a first name basis, the owners of a few companies I have worked for, and they are what you describe: hardworking and smart....they earned it. What I am speaking of is something larger than these kinds of people or people at these levels....there is a MUCH HIGHER LEVEL game afoot here: The rich people know how to avoid the pitfalls.....and we aren't talking about MICRO stuff here, we are really talking about MACRO movements and market control: They can make "Sea Change" movements occur. Too many "changes" occur in the stock market that don't follow logical movements and no basis for the direction of the movements....I am suggesting that some "cabal" pulls strings to gain these reactions.
Vac, if that's your opinion then fine, but I know of no real evidence to support that. A lot of very, very wealthy people took a severe tumble in the Great Depression. Same thing was true of our most recent recession a few years back. Who are these mysterious members of this "cabal" that can make "sea change" movements occur?
jlisenbe: I know, its my opinion, only....but there are mysteries involved with World Markets where intuitive thoughts DO NOT prevail....where the entire market pulls against the grain: You don't see this in just about any other discipline and it often defies financial conventional wisdom....I CAN'T EXPLAIN IT! But I think its real.
These days you just don't know, bots make the trends and respond to them before you even know what is happeningQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Paraclete: You are exactly correct: A lot of what happens on Wall Street and World Markets is driven by VOLATILITY that comes about from the new INSTANTANEOUS TRADING that is accomplished by computer programs, often selling stocks based upon several cents of movement only. Today, any arsehole can become a Day Trader and add to market volatility.
The last global financial meltdown in 2008 was about greedy basturds over valuing a bunch of junk and screwing everybody, but we've put safeguards in since then. I can agree with you Vac to a great extent but a cabal isn't as accurate as just plain greedy. You think a few high rollers at the top can't get around the rules and manipulate things for MO' MONEY? They do it all the time, LEGALLY, by buying elected officials to write the rules. For sure we know as facts that poor people can't screw up the markets so that only leaves rich people with banks and insurance companies they control.
It's just logical sense backed by a history of data. I rate you a mostly RIGHT on your opinion dude.
Ordinary people are always the last to know and the ones hit the hardest, and pay for rich guy screw ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
So their elected officials that they bought came up with a tax plan in which the top 20% of income earners pay nearly all of the income taxes? Interesting.Quote:
They do it all the time, LEGALLY, by buying elected officials to write the rules
Who has all the wealth and most of the money? Who has tax shelters and loopholes to hide the wealth? How do you pay for that huge defense budget? For that matter how is your highways paid for? For that matter who fixes the potholes and who tore them up?
Let's also make the difference between individual tax, corporate tax, and tax exempt groups.
Still doesn't explain how all those rich folk bought and paid for elected officials who then proceeded to come up with an income tax plan that has them paying for over 85% of it and the bottom 50% paying next to nothing. If that's what their bought and paid for elected officials did for them, then they need to buy some different ones.Quote:
Who has all the wealth and most of the money? Who has tax shelters and loopholes to hide the wealth? How do you pay for that huge defense budget? For that matter how is your highways paid for? For that matter who fixes the potholes and who tore them up?
As to how all those items get paid for, they get paid for largely by wealthy people, so what are you complaining about?
Why? What's your point? You mean tax exempt groups like the NAACP, the SCLC, or BLM?Quote:
Let's also make the difference between individual tax, corporate tax, and tax exempt groups.
Neat trick ain't it? Devil is in the details as they only get taxed on half their income, and that's 85% of tax revenues while poor people have an average of 20% deducted before they get a check and get it back the next year. So rich guys keep all their money until they have to pay, and poor people pay get theirs back after the rich guys pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
You complain about how much YOU pay to poor people so I can't complain too?Quote:
As to how all those items get paid for, they get paid for largely by wealthy people, so what are you complaining about?
Don't forget your church too and all the ones you visit. That's my point, you're always beetching about what everybody else does while you're doing it too!Quote:
Why? What's your point? You mean tax exempt groups like the NAACP, the SCLC, or BLM?
OK. How else can it be said? 85% is 85% no matter how much you try to muddy the water. The rich keep their money until, of course, it is taken from them. The other 80% of us can choose to withhold nearly nothing if we want and that is what I suggest to people. To do otherwise is to give the government an interest free loan. The solution is simply to not do it. Save up what you will need to pay the feds. You can keep the interest yourself.Quote:
Neat trick ain't it? Devil is in the details as they only get taxed on half their income, and that's 85% of tax revenues while poor people have an average of 20% deducted before they get a check and get it back the next year. So rich guys keep all their money until they have to pay, and poor people pay get theirs back after the rich guys pay.
You weren't complaining at all. I was not complaining. You asked a question and I answered it.Quote:
You complain about how much YOU pay to poor people so I can't complain too?
I didn't bring up tax exempt organizations, you did, so if anyone was "belching" it was you. If it was up to me, there would be no charitable deductions. We would all pay a percentage of our income and it would be keyed to federal spending. There would be no federal debt. Once people had to begin to pony up and actually pay for what the feds were spending, there would be a public outcry and spending would be slashed. It would severely curtail the deceptive abilities of our corrupt politicians.Quote:
Don't forget your church too and all the ones you visit. That's my point, you're always beetching about what everybody else does while you're doing it too!
What is needed is to curb waste and greed. There are nations of the world who have tax systems very different and yet they can balance budgets and have welfare systems, universal health care and much more. When you remove the capitalist greed from the system you get a better resultQuote:
I didn't bring up tax exempt organizations, you did, so if anyone was "belching" it was you. If it was up to me, there would be no charitable deductions. We would all pay a percentage of our income and it would be keyed to federal spending. There would be no federal debt. Once people had to begin to pony up and actually pay for what the feds were spending, there would be a public outcry and spending would be slashed. It would severely curtail the deceptive abilities of our corrupt politicians.
You will never get rid of waste and greed. Most of the advanced nations of the world, including yours, have incurred huge amounts of debt. Japan and England are among the worst. I don't agree that capitalist greed (whatever that is) is the problem. The problem is the idea, widespread, that we can have our cake and eat it too. We can spend, spend, spend and borrow money year after year to makeup the shortfall. It's a disaster in the making. As long as we tolerate these corrupt and dishonest pols, we will have this.Quote:
What is needed is to curb waste and greed. There are nations of the world who have tax systems very different and yet they can balance budgets and have welfare systems, universal health care and much more. When you remove the capitalist greed from the system you get a better result
M<y national has learned, balanced budgets, and a gradual reduction of debt. You seem to have cornered the market of greedy politiciansQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Paraclete: Yes, we have plenty of greedy politicians, very true......but these other nations you speak of, they have INCREDIBLY high tax rates on ALL citizens: Therein lies the tradeoff, of sorts: You can have the balanced budget anytime you want but be prepared to pay 60% of your earnings in taxes. In the U.S., we would have a revolution over 60% taxes: Hell, the U.S. fought a revolution over none other than TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!
I get what you're trying to say Vac. Easy to be suspicious of big money and the places they play and the things they do to make that big money. As far as the country goes though the government doesn't have to balance the books or even show a profit, just be responsible and responsive enough to address the needs of it's citizens, and make an environment for commerce so we can all share in EARNING prosperity, to enjoy our freedom and liberty paid for with blood, sweat, and treasure. Definitely pay as you go until you die kind of proposition. Keep working till you do.
The dufus got it right! Give the wingers a chance to blow off some steam, and think they got it like that, and can finally enjoy the show. They will always cherish the memories of a good time to wipe out the decades of hollering and screaming and being pushed aside, called names and being ignored, while the world around them has changed greatly. For them these are their good old days!
Let 'em have it while it lasts.
Your national debt, as a percentage of GDP, has risen from 10% to well over 30% just in the last ten years, so you'll have to pardon me if I don't want to use Australia as an example of national discipline. https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicato...of-nominal-gdpQuote:
M<y national has learned, balanced budgets, and a gradual reduction of debt. You seem to have cornered the market of greedy politicians
We have you and your unregulated banking system to thank for that, it was called the GFC, but in ten years we have clawed the budget back into surplus and now will work on reducing the debt, so yes you can use our national discipline as an example, whereas you have no national discipline, you just spend like there is no tomorrowQuote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
No thanks. I want us to do much better than tripling our national debt and then wanting to blame someone else for it. We'll look elsewhere for a good model.Quote:
We have you and your unregulated banking system to thank for that, it was called the GFC, but in ten years we have clawed the budget back into surplus and now will work on reducing the debt, so yes you can use our national discipline as an example, whereas you have no national discipline, you just spend like there is no tomorrow
Our banking system is not unregulated. In fact, it was federal regulations that prompted the mortgage crisis you refer to.
I would hope we figure it out ourselves, and we probably will eventually. I find countries are very unique to themselves and what works over there may not apply over here for whatever reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
A blanket statement that I would hope you can explain, because the mortgage crisis had noting to do with what banks did, even though those places with tighter regulations didn't suffer as much.Quote:
Our banking system is not unregulated. In fact, it was federal regulations that prompted the mortgage crisis you refer to.
The feds had mandated the banks open up mortgages to more high risk families. When the economy went south and the values of houses plummeted, a lot of families were upside down in their mortgages and couldn't make the payments. The banks ended up with a lot of houses and no way to pay for them. That was not all of the crisis, but it was the major contributing factor.Quote:
A blanket statement that I would hope you can explain, because the mortgage crisis had noting to do with what banks did, even though those places with tighter regulations didn't suffer as much.
Anyone has trouble with a mortgage payment if they lose a revenue source, got nothing to do with whatever value the mortgage is at any particular time. At risk buyers typically young with enough income and no down payments got caught in the can't pay the balloon note in leu of a down payment, that came due at a variable interest rate often after 2-5 years. The plan was let the banks handle the details instead of mandate a policy and procedure those young high risk people could handle. It didn't help that the homes were over valued from the start either (Just my opinion though), and sold to foreign banks and investors as a derivative cloaked in very attractive bundles. Under regulation is what busted the housing boom bubble, and took the whole world with it.
https://ukessaynow.com/blog/causes-o...-crash-of-2008
Quote:
To summarize, the housing bubble is to blame for the 2008 economic crisis. The massive recession was triggered by the collapse in house prices, which in turn were caused by ill-considered mortgage policies and the lack of governmental regulation. Banks offered opportunities for people to get affordable houses, so it is difficult to blame regular citizens for being too improvident. Financial institutions and experts should have foreseen the adverse consequences of the housing market policies, but it is still debated whether anything could be done to prevent the crisis when its first signs emerged.
Good idea, very bad disastrous execution.
All this time I thought it was Barney "The Male Page Chaser" Frank that screwed up Fannie Mae so bad and caused the housing mess!
Of course it does. If your house has gone up in value, then you can sell the house, pay off the mortgage, and hopefully have some equity left over with no damage to your credit score. If you're upside down, then you're stuck and the mortgage company is stuck. And if you multiply that by millions, then you have a financial crisis caused, in large measure , by the idiots in the federal government. But there is hope!Quote:
Anyone has trouble with a mortgage payment if they lose a revenue source, got nothing to do with whatever value the mortgage is at any particular time.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tru...eland-security
which idiots were they I wonder? the idiots who would do it again if they get the chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
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