Athos: The story is another example of how you can judge a person wrongly....and get surprised.

The bear traps are demonstrated by the various "predictions" of Trump's demise and the absolute arrogance of the left in thinking he is an idiot: That same idiot beat the left the last POTUS Election while the left's media was predicting he would lose....short memories are not what you want right now......sounds like the left likes to replay the same old song.

I agree about the electors: The IQ of the voters in not so swift and its getting worse....but its what we have to work with.

So the dufus is invincible and we are wasting our time and should just bend the knee, kiss his ring and let him run roughshod over our democracy. Naw, I would rather go down swinging if you don't mind. I have said we deserve what we got, and he sure surprised everybody including himself, but now that we know what we got, I hope we can do better.

All hands on deck!

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

The bear traps are demonstrated by the various "predictions" of Trump's demise and the absolute arrogance of the left in thinking he is an idiot: That same idiot beat the left the last POTUS Election while the left's media was predicting he would lose...

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It is becoming more and more apparent that Trump won due to Russian interference. Syria is most likely payback. Time will tell if I'm right.

Anyway, the polls predicting Trump would lose the popular vote were correct! Hillary Clinton beat Trump by nearly 3,000,000 votes!

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Originally Posted by Athos

It is becoming more and more apparent that Trump won due to Russian interference. Syria is most likely payback. Time will tell if I'm right.

Anyway, the polls predicting Trump would lose the popular vote were correct! Hillary Clinton beat Trump by nearly 3,000,000 votes!

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Except the election wasn't decided by who got the most votes, it was decided on who had the greatest support throughout the states. You see the election cannot be won by voters in a few populous states. Tell me if you can, how did the Russians influence so many people? there may be evidence they influenced a few people but the whole of the country? That is drawing a long bow

In addition to the Mueller Report, which lays out very explicitly the scope and extent of Russian interference, names and indicts specific Russian military and intelligence officers, there is also the just released bipartisan Senate Report that confirms that Russia indeed did interfere on the 2016 and 2018 election, and no doubt will do it again through proxy and social media propaganda.

The dufus won the Electoral College by less than 100,000 votes in 5 key states. Yes turnout was down also, so it was a perfect storm and we have the dufus but Russian cyber interference was traced to nearly every state, and it's well documented and we have a whole thread with links on this forum. Most peoples eyes glazed over, but it was a comprehensive and detailed piece of work that sadly most people didn't read, or worse UNDERSTAND.

This is a good simplified version.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Tell me if you can, how did the Russians influence so many people? there may be evidence they influenced a few people but the whole of the country?

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They only needed to influence a minimum number of voters in three key states - not "the whole of the country". This is very basic stuff. If you don't understand it by now, you're probably the only one on the planet who doesn't, and you probably never will.

Short of a Russian pointing an AK-47 at a member of my family and forcing me to "pull the lever" for Trump, there is no way in hades that I am going to read a newspaper article, a magazine article, an internet article, watch a YouTube video, watch a television new program, or any of that nonsense and be swayed to vote for Trump or any other POTUS, Congressional, or Senatorial candidate: Yes, I know the U.S. is quickly being overrun by "SHEEPLE" who are simply unthinking, non-logic driven, brain-dead drones, but we aren't quite dead, just yet: We still, some of us, possess cognitive reasoning. If the Russians could supply some of those beautiful women to every American male, hell, we might even vote for Putin, himself, as POTUS (by and large, we are pretty weak that way)!

I truly think the Democrats just ran a HORRIBLE candidate against Trump and got beat, plain and simple.

Winning the popular vote by 1% is no where near the BLOWOUT/LANDSLIDE predicted by the polls.....so, the POLLS were, still, actually, wrong.

Polls have varying degrees of margin for error. Not focusing on some midwestern states as the dufus did hurt too I think. We get another chance at this soon if they don't dump the dufus before then...or AFTER! The dufus is the incumbent now so that makes it even more of a challenge and we still have those pesky Ruskies, no doubt having gotten better at whatever they did before.

What a world!

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Short of a Russian pointing an AK-47 at a member of my family and forcing me to "pull the lever" for Trump, there is no way in hades that I am going to read a newspaper article, a magazine article, an internet article, watch a YouTube video, watch a television new program, or any of that nonsense and be swayed to vote for Trump or any other POTUS, Congressional, or Senatorial candidate:

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The power of persuasion via various media is well-known and those most susceptible are the ones who deny it. Why do you think advertising is so powerful? Read The Hidden Persuaders - the bible for this area.

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I truly think the Democrats just ran a HORRIBLE candidate against Trump and got beat, plain and simple.

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That HORRIBLE candidate beat Trump, plain and simple, by THREE MILLION votes! How do you explain that?

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the POLLS were, still, actually, wrong.

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The polls were, ACTUALLY, correct. Are you blind?

Turnout	55.7%[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...rease2.svg.png 0.8 pp
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...cropped%29.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Skidmore_2.jpg Nominee Donald Trump Hillary Clinton Party Republican Democratic Home state New York New York Running mate Mike Pence Tim Kaine Electoral vote 304[a] 227[a] States carried 30 + ME-02 20 + DC Popular vote 62,984,828 65,853,514 Percentage 46.1% 48.2%

I think you just made my point

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I think you just made my point

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That Hillary won by three million votes?

Paraclete is correct: The Constitution takes care of this problem with the strength of the Electoral College....the system is set up this way so that the "Urban" populations don't run the whole Election process.....otherwise, you end up with a miserable system where the Urbanites are the UPPER CLASS and the un-Urbanites are the serfs.....If you allowed just the popular vote to control the process, you would end up with what you have in a very miserable state like New York, where N.Y. City control who gets elected Governor and Senators and the rest of the state has no say in the process, effectively....in fact, many New Yorkers I know despise N.Y. City because they control the rest of the state....its quite a divisive system in N.Y. that breed contempt.

If you are against the Electoral Process, I think it is fair to say you are against the U.S. Constitution.....The Constitution is a divine, Sacred document that should not, ever, be monkeyed with, no matter how it affects what result YOU want: The Constitution is BIGGER THAN YOUR WANTS and it needs to stay that way....its the only protection we have in place that keeps us from becoming a land of slaves to those ensconced in power!

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

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If you are against the Electoral Process, I think it is fair to say you are against the U.S. Constitution.....The Constitution is a divine, Sacred document that should not, ever, be monkeyed with, no matter how it affects what result YOU want: The Constitution is BIGGER THAN YOUR WANTS and it needs to stay that way....its the only protection we have in place that keeps us from becoming a land of slaves to those ensconced in power!

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Hold on a moment Vac, the Constitution is not divine or God breathed Scripture, it is a contruct of man and should not be elevated above that status. Many nations have achieved democracy without the limitations of the US Constitution and the only nation that had difficulty abolishing slavery is the one ruled by the US Constitution

Can't argue with that logic Clete, but if you read it you may find it aspires to more than the men that wrote it, and gives a young nation something to grow into. Admittedly we are slow on that path Slow is okay if you eventually get it right and make progress forward. Naw we ain't perfect, but we strive to be, and mistakes along the way can be corrected. Maybe not in the this election, but it's another one coming.

Is there another nation on Earth that's so connected to the rest of the nations? Not really, So in order to form a more perfect union, we just have to keep working at it. That doesn't mean we think we are the only great nation, but we do shoot for being the greatest nation among many great nations.

The experiment continues.

Talaniman: You stated it much better than I ever could! THANK YOU!

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

The Constitution takes care of this problem with the strength of the Electoral College....the system is set up this way so that the "Urban" populations don't run the whole Election process.....otherwise, you end up with a miserable system where the Urbanites are the UPPER CLASS and the un-Urbanites are the serfs

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The Electoral College was established in the late 18th century when the nation was overwhelmingly agricultural, not urban.

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If you are against the Electoral Process, I think it is fair to say you are against the U.S. Constitution.....The Constitution is a divine, Sacred document that should not, ever, be monkeyed with

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The US Constitution has been "monkeyed with" 27 times! You really need to read some history and stop posting nonsense here. Also, it is hardly a "divine, Sacred document". More nonsense.

Madison and Hamilton expected the Electoral College to protect the nation from demagogues or those not qualified to be president by ensuring the electors were men of quality. Over the years, the rules changes so that the Electoral College actually ensured we would get the worst demagogue in American history - Donald Trump, an unhinged nutcase who needs only to be seen for his actions this week to verify his madness.

Athos: Urban residents have no more rights than do rural ones.....The Electoral College puts it all on a level playing field so that one minded, brainwashed urbanites don't take sole control of the country....that is one feature of its greatness..

Adding Amendments is ENTIRELY different than taking something away from the Constitution: "Monkeyed With" means that you aren't going to put your greasy fingers into and strip something out of it! That HAS NEVER BEEN DONE!

The Constitution is DIVINE because it is obviously written by men of divine wisdom: If you don't think so, fine....but most agree it is the MOST PERFECT PROTECTION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS EVER WRITTEN: IT IS DIVINE, by that standard! And it is SACRED in that it should not be fooled with by UNDIVINE individual LIKE YOU AND ME!

Changing the Electoral College because you don't LIKE THE POTUS that now resides in the White House is not nearly enough reason to change it: DREAM ON!

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Athos: Urban residents have no more rights than do rural ones.....The Electoral College puts it all on a level playing field so that one minded, brainwashed urbanites don't take sole control of the country....that is one feature of its greatness..

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So now we have one minded brainwashed rural non-urbanites taking sole control. Plus the fact that you said it was "set up" this way. Did you lie then or are you lying now? Do you know?

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"Monkeyed With" means that you aren't going to put your greasy fingers into and strip something out of it!

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Thank you for that technical definition. (I sometimes wonder why I bother replying to you).

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The Constitution is DIVINE because it is obviously written by men of divine wisdom: If you don't think so, fine....but most agree it is the MOST PERFECT PROTECTION FOR HUMAN RIGHTS EVER WRITTEN: IT IS DIVINE, by that standard! And it is SACRED in that it should not be fooled with by UNDIVINE individual LIKE YOU AND ME!

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Complete and utter rubbish!! How do people like you get computers?

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Changing the Electoral College because you don't LIKE THE POTUS that now resides in the White House is not nearly enough reason to change it: DREAM ON!

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It sure as hell shows the weakness of the Electoral College. But I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

Athos: Come on, get off your high horse: The likes of me and you couldn't carry the bags of our Founding Fathers.....we/us/me/you/anybody alive today would have about as much business trying to second guess what the Founding Fathers created as would a Neanderthal trying to solve a Calculus problem. We are mere mortals.....the F.F. created a living document and a legacy that will live on long after we turn to dust.

Your problem is that YOUR GAL, Mrs. Hillary, didn't win....mainly because she couldn't campaign her way out of a paper bag: SHE SUCKED AS A CANDIDATE!.....plain and simple.....and, now, you and a few others like you (and I mean that, most people are pretty tired of the endless plots being hatched) think that you can overturn the election.....you blame the election process, of which the Electoral College is part of, and you zero in on that as being "the problem".....you range from one day blaming the evil RUSSIAN-TRUMP collusion partnership to the next day blaming the Electoral College.

Yeah, the U.S. CONSTITUTION IS DIVINE: No one you or I know could have written it....it took heavenly intervention to develop this document.....it is so perfect that is to be protected, therefore it is sacred.

Got a news flash for you, Athos: Whether you like it or you don't like it, you best learn to love it: THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE IS HERE TO STAY! Do you know why its going to stay? Because it will be protected by the American People....in the end, the U.S. CONSTITUTION protects the people and the people will always return the favor and protect the Constitution from the likes of people like you.

Dill, like most herbs, can be grown pretty much anywhere and can withstand both heat and cool weather. Dill will tolerate partial shade; in light shade, the plants won't get as bushy as in full sun, so they can be closer together. It can also be grown in the greenhouse if you provide a container large enough for its roots a, at least 6-8 inches in diameter, and pot it in rich soil.

https://www.buzzmyblog.com/black-fri...-server-deals/

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Originally Posted by ChabDenz

Dill, like most herbs, can be grown pretty much anywhere and can withstand both heat and cool weather. Dill will tolerate partial shade; in light shade, the plants won't get as bushy as in full sun, so they can be closer together. It can also be grown in the greenhouse if you provide a container large enough for its roots a, at least 6-8 inches in diameter, and pot it in rich soil.

https://www.buzzmyblog.com/black-fri...-server-deals/

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Thanks for the gardening lesson, now tell us what to do when the dill becomes weed and takes over The White House

Sure there is a great dissapointment that HC lost, Vac, but for sure their was also a GREATER dissappointment that the dufus won. I mean he was a liar and cheater before the election, and the power of the presidency magnified that greatly. What's disturbing for me was the embrace of such a loud mouth bully blowhard by so many, as he did what many feared he would do, blow up the party and replace it with his own image, or run it like a family business surroundeed by yes men and sycophants and even corrupts former heroes to do his own bidding. Doing and saying the wrong things has become normal and accepted with plenty of support.

Just for a statement of fact, the founders gave the congress the responsibility and duty to balance the executive branch in policy and law making as well as OVERSIGHT, and the impeachment process is a part of the constitution. It's the law of the land, and that's the way we get DILLS out of the WH. So even if there is a landslide election of a president he can still be removed.

I was there and saw it happen.

Talaniman: Few would argue, I think not you nor Athos, or anyone else, that Richard M. Nixon was a man driven by ideology, not self-serving ambitions of enriching himself: Nixon was a tragedy because he ruined what he could have been and what he could have accomplished for the nation...Nixon certainly didn't line his pockets or, at least, do that to the magnitude other POTUS have (albeit the humble and malevolent Jimmy Carter he absolutely did not)…..Maybe Nixon was a scoundrel but a totally different kind of scoundrel than the kind of which you assert is Trump. I get the Constitutional Crisis of the Watergate Era but that was a different prism of view from what is going on now...I know you say Trump is all about self-enrichment.....Nixon was all about helping friends but, at his core, he wanted what was best for the country.....otherwise he would have stayed in Office through the Impeachment phase but he knew it wasn't good for the country: Don't you agree?

I am afraid I must disagree. If Nixon thought his landslide victory and popularity with the people and his party would get him through he may have stayed, but many repubs told him he would be impeached and better if he resigned. Maybe they all knew an impeachment trail wouldn't be good for the country, and maybe it would have been much worse for Nixon, as charging a president with crimes is disgraceful for everybody, headed off by Fords pardon. Ford was the vice after Agnew resigned in disgrace if you remember. No Nixon was caught and all his antics FAILED to keep him in power, so he really had no choice, but for the good of the country speech made him look better I suppose.

Nixon had a history of accomplishment, the dufus does not. Sure it's a different time, and different repubs, different country maybe, but the dufus is no Nixon, although after winning a second term you would have to be pretty dumb to pull the stunts he did, but he was pulling stunts before it just wasn't public.

So I have to disagree he resigned for the good of the country, he was just covering his own arse after being caught.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Don't you agree?

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No, I don't agree. Nixon was ego-driven, not ideology driven. His opening to China was a good thing in my opinion, but I assume you don't think so, China being CHICOM and all that.

After the tapes were revealed to the public, the world discovered Nixon was a crook. Very early on, he knew what was going in re Watergate, but relied on deniability. He was part and parcel of the cover-up. A serious crime. In an interview with David Frost, he stated "When the president does it, it's not a crime". This basic misunderstanding of law is what brought him down. It led to the cover-up, the Daniel Ellsberg break-in, the hush money payments, and ordering the FBI to stop investigating Watergate - among other crimes.

As Tal said, he didn't resign to save the country. He resigned to avoid the shame of impeachment and conviction.

Nixon also had an enemies list - a scary thing for a president to have especially when it contained good upstanding US citizens.

Athos & Talaniman: Nixon MADE a lot of enemies from the 40's and 50's with HUAC....so there were trails of Bolsheviks out to stick a dagger in him because he sure as heck nailed a lot of them, especially their hero Alger Hiss. Nixon was highly intelligent, according to Bill Clinton, who, himself, was a road scholar. I tend to give more leeway to highly intelligent people when it comes to high crimes.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Athos & Talaniman: Nixon MADE a lot of enemies from the 40's and 50's with HUAC....so there were trails of Bolsheviks out to stick a dagger in him because he sure as heck nailed a lot of them, especially their hero Alger Hiss. Nixon was highly intelligent, according to Bill Clinton, who, himself, was a road scholar. I tend to give more leeway to highly intelligent people when it comes to high crimes.

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I notice you went off on a tangent and did not respond to a single thing tal or I wrote. Did you ever get your money back from Trump University where they had a course in Changing The Subject 101.

Yeah there may be a difference between a dumb crook and a smart one, but geez ain't they both crooks?

Talaniman: Yes, must admit, they are both crooks....just prefer the smart ones.:)!

Athos: I am not in you gentlemen's league when it comes to refined arguments but if you will please keep beating knots on my head, I will get better, maybe! I do appreciate the lessons, in all sincerity!