Hmm, didn't we try that in Europe? As I read of history, we got attacked any way.
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Hmm, didn't we try that in Europe? As I read of history, we got attacked any way.
we has allies by our side in Vietnam. The Aussies had 521 killed and 3,000 wounded . You owe Clete an apology..... and besides the Aussies ,South Korea (300,000 troops ;Quote:
A unilateral military move on our part without a broad coalition of committed allies would just be another Viet Nam on a larger scale, in the desert, instead of the jungle. Regime change from without rather than from within is just a disaster waiting to happem. I sure wouldn't count on the Iranian people revolting against the 12ers because of economic sanctions and especially not over military strikes.
5,099 killed; 10,962 wounded ),New Zealand(3,890 troops ,37 killed 187 wounded )and Thailand(351 killed; 1,358 injured)all had troops engaged in the conflict ..
yes retreat to fortress American never worked in the past . The truth is that we engage in world affairs and will continue to do so no matter how isolationist the politics becomesQuote:
Hmm, didn't we try that in Europe? As I read of history, we got attacked any way.
You think the dufus was dickering for troops for Iran with Morrison? SHHH! Don't tell Clete.
Not interested in fighting your battles for you, you have talked up this fight for years, no way I would send any troops to defend a wahhabbist. I am against the second deployment of our troops in Afghanistan, we are wearing out our equipment on your behalf and for what?Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I thank Australia for their continued alliance with us .
I thank the US for their continued alliance with us. This alliance works if either nation is attacked. It does not automatically mean that it works should either nation initiate a war. We held a view communism should be contained, we held a view that after 9/11 al Qaeda should be defeated, we held a view, erroneously, that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction and must be stopped, we have worked with you to destroy ISIS and the Taliban. These conflicts have been costly for a small nation with limited military capability..Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I'm wondering what will happen if we find it necessary to confront Indonesia over West Papua as we did over East Timor. The US left us to it.
The truth is this: WE/THE U.S. doesn't need the den of Wahhabism's damned oil! In fact, since the U.S. is the largest exporter of oil in the world, it might be best if we just start selling to the markets that the Saudis are selling to (i.e. take their customers)….Nobody on this site better think the rotten Saudis are a U.S. ally.....Oh, guess what, the crazy Wahhabis are going go crazy again, like they aren't already, once U.S. troops set foot on their "holy" land.....that is one thing that Bin Laden said got them going before.
And, don't talk about "Fortress America" ever again: We have dolts not even wanting to defend out borders! What kind of "fortress" doesn't protect its perimeter?
yes Vac you must defend and strengthen your borders for more than one reason, and please don't start any more wars in the ME. I think you should be selling us oil it would be cheaper than Tapis, but we should exploit our own resources, that is if we could get rid of some greenies who want to protect everything but human beings. It is very sad that Muslim nations hold so much of the oil resource. The Saudi should put their own lives on the line to protect their assets this time, might stop them exporting that crazy religion, but you will be beside them while ever they buy your weaponsQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Paraclete: The whole M.E. is fetid, festering sewer! Saudis are worthless: they import workers from Asia to build every thing in their stinking "kingdom"....too damn lazy to get out of their robes to do it themselves.
Yes but not too lazy to cut off heads, they import everything including mercenariesQuote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
The ME is a bunch of poor people with corrupt leaders who use religion to control the their populations and hog all the wealth.
How naive you are, the whole of the ME is corrupt, top to bottomQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Paraclete: You sound like you may have gone to the M.E. before and I assume you have....I get all my information secondhand but my nephew was over there three different occasions for long tours of duty, in Iraq: His distain for the country/countries and the people inhibiting the countries is palatable....of course, his view may be biased since he is U.S. Army and was being shot at regularly.....but his accounts are firsthand.....Experience has taught me and, I have learned, to put much more stock in firsthand accounts. Even the more "civilized" countries were places he doesn't wish to return to ever again....Talaniman is correct, though, according to my nephew: He saw 0oor people treated like dog crap and women treated like farm animals: It was enough for him for one life time.
Obviously I do not share Cletes blanket bias against the people of the ME, or any other region of the Earth. Most humans are peaceful until pushed to hard, or too long, or get whipped into a desperate frenzy by a leader who promises rewards against whatever enemy he identifies as the cause of their misery. Lots of places on Earth like that Vac.
What would you do to feed you're family? Wouldn't you kiss the bosses arse and do as you're told if they needed a loaf of bread? Many of us would, though we may hate ourselves for it, but if not having that option made you desperate enough then yeah, I just might cut off your head if my family was starving in the dirt or under a bridge, or in the middle of the desert, or jungle.
That's how "leaders" raise Armies isn't it? That's why there are criminal gangs in every city on Earth, big or small.
Talaniman: I think your explanation describes what our Father's generation lived, literally: Born in '24....just in time to be 5 years old when the Great Depression hit....and just old enough to join in on WWII in '42 and see some of the toughest battles in the Pacific (Kwajalein, Saipan, Tarawa, and others).....I think what you said was his mindset: He had nothing coming up as a kid and knew it was a duty and honor to serve but, after that, he worked like there was no tomorrow because, after experiencing the Great Depression and WWII, he KNEW, firsthand, there could very well be NO TOMORROW......Desperate conditions make you hardened......There is an old saying: "Hard times make good men.....Good times make soft men...….Soft men make hard times".....and I believe there is much to be said for that.
Our Fathers knew the truth: For the most part, we work and we live without a safety net. We own virtually nothing but our integrity, our good name and that is why you must defend your integrity all costs....everything we own, all material things, can easily be taken from us. Our Fathers sought to build a buffer between their families and the threats of the outside world.....because they knew how bad it could be....and they knew this in a way that most living in the U.S., today, do not and, hopefully, never will.
What do you mean Tal, we know as much as we will ever know. Some drones flew from we know not where to a place somewhere. There was damage, carnage even.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Great
isn't it, news articles appear then the whole subject is dropped, inconvenient to some perhaps, doesn't play into the daily script, and then, we watch in awe as the great man goes electioneeringQuote:
Originally Posted by theipllaser
You joining the US and Saudi Arabia to destroy Iran Clete? How long do you think that will take?
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I don't want war Tal and your entry into Iraq should have told you something, but no, your arrogance continues. A nation fighting on their own ground is very hard to conquer. You don't suggest the use of nuclear weapons, do you?
Hey, are you joining us or not? Stop equivocating, as we have sent the Saudis all kinds of stuff to defend themselves, and now troops to boot. If you prefer the media saber rattling fair enough, but Iran ain't giving up nothing, and there is no nuclear deal, as bad as you may think the old deal was, NO deal means anything goes, so which side of the fence are you on, or would you just rather read the funny papers?Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I'm sitting in the stands watching the play. The way I see it Iran should be left alone so long as they don't attack anyoneelse.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
They have only attacked stuff so far, but it's not theirs, and I guess it doesn't matter if it was them or a proxy buddy, since the Saudis and Iran are already technically at war with each other through proxy's so let them have at each other.
Talaniman: U.S., Western Hemisphere, Monroe Doctrine.....Abide by the warning to avoid foreign wars.
Since the Monroe Doctrine, the US has been involved in many foreign wars, including the largest war in the history of mankind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Athos: There is a major difference between being "pulled into" a "WAR" through attacks and becoming embroiled in a conflict because of ridiculous agreements with so called "allies who would not come the U.S.'s defense under any circumstance.....The U.N. is decidedly ANTI-U.S., do you not agree?
You are correct about the U.S. and involvement with largest war in the history of mankind......but that was different....do you know why? It was different because the U.S. wrote and approved A DECLARATION OF WAR.....we have NEVER DECLARED WAR WITH ANY NATION SINCE WWII......that is a tremendous difference: These conflicts are not wars...Korea and Vietnam were not wars....neither were any of the engagements in the M.E.....these conflicts serve no good end and they do nothing but endanger and kill off our young people while weakening the economy of the U.S. and sowing dissent and agitation amongst the population....they are divisive....with no upside.
Come on Vac, declared or not war is war. You know bombs and fighting and death. That semantics dance doesn't change those facts, and that Monroe Doctrine was just a piece of paper with a nice idea but no reality.
Talaniman: The Declaration Of War turns loose the entirety of U.S. Military might upon the aggressor.....that is something that did not happen in Korea or Vietnam or anywhere since WWII.
You could argue that the Monroe Doctrine was a "Piece Of Paper" but it was much more than that until Eisenhower and Kennedy decided to take a dump on it and permit Castro to turn Cuba into a "Worker's Paradise" of Bolshevik terror. I have heard those on the left, including Obama, say that the U.S. Constitution was "Just A Piece Of Paper".....do you think the U.S. Constitution is just a piece of paper?
It's a guideline for governance for our country. It took four years of our might aided by Allies to free Europe and defeat Japan. By your logic we should not have stopped the Russians from stationing nukes in Cuba, not have aided Korea against NK, and certainly not have tried to help SVN against NVN. Am I correct? What about E Germany against W Germany? The Balkans? Africa? Afghanistan?
Seems your strict interpretation of the Monroe Doctrine would have us sit and watch the rest of the world be over run, and surround us with enemies working against our interests. Doesn't sound much like security, not that there is much security now.
I must take issue with the notion we can just kick everybody's butt all by ourselves anywhere in the world. Can you think of a single instance when we have?
What about poor little Granada, or Panama, places easily forgotten. But when the UN says no, you gather others and say we will do it anyway. No, you live in a coward's castle these days behind your dronesQuote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Talaniman: No, not one instance. My reservations are that many in the world look at the U.S. as a "safety blanket", free of charge.....but you know that nothing is free...and you know the payment is in the blood of our national treasure of soldiers. We just have to pick our battles more carefully and we don't need to protect the Saudi Arabians who don't like us anyway. Entanglement is easy, un-entanglement is much more difficult!
Good points, but you won't see our military to far behind our MONEY interests, nor can we make Mo' money by sitting on our own porch. Calling us cowards is a reflection on you to Clete since you don't seem to mind wagging your little tails behind us where ever we go.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
I cannot say that those we engage with for our mutual interests and security don't pay a price despite the popular view that it's just us doing the work. Of course they cannot do what we can, but they can do what THEY can. The big dog can be expected to do the bulk of the work. Libya comes to mind and the criticism was Obama was leading from behind while the Euro's ran all those sorties. They were the ones that needed the oil to keep flowing not us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
Talaniman: What you say is true.....But Libya.....what a horrid outcome.....getting rid of Ghadaffi and replacing him with a civil war, of sorts, wasn't a nice thing for the U.S. to get involved in....Did you know Ghadaffi gave the oil wealth back to the people (no, I am not a Ghadaffi fan!) and we replaced him with rulers who are much more brutal and self-absorbed......maybe his end came as a form of payment for Lockerbie. But we did tell the Russians that we were going to stay out of it.....and we didn't....what happened in Bengazzi was a horrible mess and we will never know the truth about that, I guess.
Why are you worrying about the past? Haven't you noticed that this Saudi/Iran thing was a storm in a tea cup and the world has moved on, you are more interested in a possible political mistake than conflict. This is because you no longer rely on Saudi product just on Saudi buys. No one is interested in Yemen so there was shout the other day, hey, look over here and the world said where?
Tal I know about thirteen hours in Benghazi, I know there was failure, mayhem, cowardise even. Not a good look but it was a long time ago, far away, and I'm sure you wish it would go away.
Vac, you don't need to protect Saudi Arabia, that mob have been slitting each others throats for centuries and no amount of american blood will stem the tide. 1400 years ago a desert conman started a war and it is always raging somewhere
Paraclete: Couldn't agree more about the Saudis.....their Wahhabism is poison in the M.E....but they may have met their match in the crazy department with the Mullahs....maybe they will cancel each other out!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacuum7
I think it is more a stare down, surely Iran knows they lack the military power, you see there is that matter of a few miles of water
What they lack in military, they more than make up in guerilla groups.
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