If you have done it, then make your case. We are all waiting.
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If you have done it, then make your case. We are all waiting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
That's some religion he hides behind. That's the one where if you don't believe the way he does you spend eternity in hell being tortured. That includes toddlers and infants who aren't believers because they can't be. He makes no distinction. Then there's the billions of Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, etc., etc., etc., who never heard of his god, but no matter, they all go to hell anyway.
Still waiting for him to deny or clarify but all he offers is "The Bible told me so".
What a crazy comment. The Bible is the foundation of Christian belief. To say, "The Bible says,"is the end of the discussion for us. Anyone with any familiarity with the Christian faith would know that.Quote:
Still waiting for him to deny or clarify but all he offers is "The Bible told me so".
I'm not hiding behind anything and if you will do what you typically don't do and read the original comment, then you will realize that. For a Christian to say "I follow Christ" is a very normal thing. You plainly have but little understanding of my faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I understand that your belief is that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment.
Do you deny that? Yes or no?
If no, does it include infants and toddlers?
I've never denied that, largely because of this passage in Revelation 20. "11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."Quote:
I understand that your belief is that unbelievers go to hell for eternal punishment.
Do you deny that? Yes or no?
If no, does it include infants and toddlers?
As to toddlers and infants, that is less clear. My understanding is that, since they are not guilty of sin, there would be nothing to judge them for. David was convinced his infant child was in heaven.
Which Bible translation? Whose interpretation?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Ah, at least that's progress of a sort. Let's go a step further. How about others who may not be guilty of sin - say, an adult who is mentally disabled and doesn't know right from wrong.
Not yet. First it's time for you to summon up some courage and state your position, which would REALLY be progress. Do you accept the Revelation passage?Quote:
Ah, at least that's progress of a sort. Let's go a step further. How about others who may not be guilty of sin - say, an adult who is mentally disabled and doesn't know right from wrong.
Accept the Revelation passage as what?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
"Revelation was the last book to be accepted into the Christian biblical canon, and even at the present day some Nestorian churches reject it. It was tainted because the heretical sect of the Montanists relied on it and doubts were raised over its Jewishness and authorship, and it was not until 419 that it was included in the canon."
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...most-christian
Truth. You plainly don't. Now Athos needs to answer.Quote:
Accept the Revelation passage as what?
For me, I'm perfectly happy to take my stand in Revelation as in any other book of the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Revelation is a literary gem. Sure I accept it. It's full of colorful language, metaphors and symbols, angels and anti-Christs, lakes of fire, books with names written in them, etc., etc., etc.
Did you know it barely made it into the canon? Even then many thought it wasn't really inspired, just a sort of weird dream of John. I think (not sure) the Orthodox have pretty much rejected it and don't use it in their services. I DO know that Luther rejected it - oddly enough for the same reasons I object to it, all the hades and hell stuff - and when he translated his Bible he put Revelation in some back window. Anyway, not in the Bible proper.
Back to the question - the mentally disabled adult. ??
Truth of what????? (I borrowed some of Athos' punctuation marks when he wasn't looking.)Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Stop being evasive. So do you accept the passage noted above as truth or not?
Truth of literary genius. I'm a Preterist.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I missed something here because no one has quoted the scripture where it's okay to worship a lying cheating dufus who treats men women and children like animals and bears them false witness. Can any of you scholars of scripture help find where thats part of Christianity please?
Like I said. Evasive.Quote:
Truth of literary genius. I'm a Preterist.
Wow. I must be the one who really missed something here. That would be the place where anyone suggested we worship Mr. Trump. And, of course, the holier than thou mantra starts back up again.Quote:
I missed something here because no one has quoted the scripture where it's okay to worship a lying cheating dufus who treats men women and children like animals and bears them false witness
Not at all. Look up Preterist.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So you are really and seriously trying to suggest that Revelation came to pass by A.D. 70???Quote:
Not at all. Look up Preterist.
Evasive.
Revelation was written for a definite purpose. That's why the book almost didn't make the cut into the canon. In order to understand Revelation, you must understand apocalyptic literature. The author of Revelation admits to living during the very time his visions are concerned with, and in the last chapter his angelic guide forbids him from sealing his scroll 'because the time is near' and the events 'must soon happen'.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Even if you don't worship the dufus, of which I'm not convinced since you sure sound like it, where in scripture does it allow for cruelty to men, women, and children and allows you to even support a racist? How can I even be holier than thou when you have a bible and I don't.Quote:
Wow. I must be the one who really missed something here. That would be the place where anyone suggested we worship Mr. Trump. And, of course, the holier than thou mantra starts back up again.
Anybody ever see the dufus going to church?
If you really believe Revelation has already happened, then I don't know what to tell you. Passages such as this have plainly not happened, and certainly not by A.D. 70. "9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice"Quote:
Revelation was written for a definite purpose. That's why the book almost didn't make the cut into the canon. In order to understand Revelation, you must understand apocalyptic literature. The author of Revelation admits to living during the very time his visions are concerned with, and in the last chapter his angelic guide forbids him from sealing his scroll 'because the time is near' and the events 'must soon happen'.
Evasiveness is, I believe, your middle name.
It was a vision!!!!!!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
From God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Quote:
It was a vision!!!!!!!!!!
You just have chosen not to believe it. There you are. I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it. You are free to believe what you wish. But as Elijah said, “How much longer will you waver, hobbling between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him!"
If the Bible is true, then follow it. If not, then throw it away.
Are those from Athos' stash?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Huh? How am I not following Him?Quote:
You just have chosen not to believe it. There you are. I'm not trying to make a big deal out of it. You are free to believe what you wish. But as Elijah said, “How much longer will you waver, hobbling between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him!"
"The Bible is true." That means you take every word literally?Quote:
If the Bible is true, then follow it. If not, then throw it away.
I'm not suggesting you are not following Him. I am suggesting you are evasive when it comes to coming down on one side or the other of a scripture.Quote:
Huh? How am I not following Him?
Of course not, but the whole "literal/metaphoric" argument can easily become nothing more than an excuse for trying to explain away those parts of the Bible that I personally don't care for. So for me to not take a passage literally, I need to have a really good reason.Quote:
"The Bible is true." That means you take every word literally?
How you miss the point, as Paul told us all of scripture is useful for teaching, for rebuke so not one word can be ignored and it really doesn't matter whether it is literal or metaphoric it is something God wants us to know but the detail is his alone. I am reminded of a quote from Einstein "I just want to know the thoughts of God, everything else is just the details"
I was very specific, not evasive.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Revelation tells us that Jesus Christ returns to earth, ushers in the Last Judgment, and establishes a new Heaven and a new Earth.
Good. Then you accept the scripture. Wonderful, Wondergirl!
Of course it does. It matters a great deal. When, for instance, Jesus says He is the door of the sheepfold, He does not literally mean He is a door or that we are literally sheep. And the passage we looked at in Revelation is another prime example.Quote:
it really doesn't matter whether it is literal or metaphoric
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Athos answered immediately after you. See post 51.
Now back to the question - the mentally disabled adult ??
Ok you don't want to be a sheep led by the good shepherd Jesus and yet he tells us my sheep hear my voice. I am one of his sheep because if the Lamb of God sees me as a sheep then a sheep I am. As I said it doesn't matter I am what God wants me to be. Bah, Bah, Bah!Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So you're a sheep, JL isn't, or is and doesn't know it.
can't help myself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOaSa78_NM0
Quote:
Athos answered immediately after you. See post 51.
This was your reply. "Revelation is a literary gem. Sure I accept it. It's full of colorful language, metaphors and symbols, angels and anti-Christs, lakes of fire, books with names written in them, etc., etc., etc." You and WG must have gone to the same school of evasive answers.Quote:
Now back to the question - the mentally disabled adult ??
As to the mentally disabled, I don't know of any scripture which addresses it, so I would agree with Abraham's observation. "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
What part of Athos' response is evasive?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
And JL slaps responders down for being evasive....Quote:
As to the mentally disabled, I don't know of any scripture which addresses it, so I would agree with Abraham's observation. "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
A simple yes or no would have been nice. Instead we get a long discussion of literary gems, angels, and lakes of fire.Quote:
What part of Athos' response is evasive?
I answered honestly. Do you know of a scripture that addresses the judgement of the mentally disabled?Quote:
And JL slaps responders down for being evasive....
Apparently, you haven't read the book.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
"A simple yes or no would have been nice."Quote:
I answered honestly. Do you know of a scripture that addresses the judgement of the mentally disabled?
Only a few dozen times.Quote:
Apparently, you haven't read the book.
Go back and read the question. "Now back to the question - the mentally disabled adult ??" That does not call for a yes or no answer. If you believe that all questions should ultimately be answered with scripture, then I'm saying I don't know other than to say the Judge of all the earth will do what is right. So I would be happy to accept an "I don't know" answer when it is appropriate, but to answer with long, indecisive verbiage is called being evasive.Quote:
"A simple yes or no would have been nice."
#47 as a followup to #44 by Athos: Ah, at least that's progress of a sort. Let's go a step further. How about others who may not be guilty of sin - say, an adult who is mentally disabled and doesn't know right from wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I'm not sure what your point is.Quote:
#47 as a followup to #44 by Athos: Ah, at least that's progress of a sort. Let's go a step further. How about others who may not be guilty of sin - say, an adult who is mentally disabled and doesn't know right from wrong.
To be clear on the issue of being evasive, I try to give a firm yes or no. If I'm not sure, I'll say I'm not sure. If my answer is conditional, I'll state the conditions, but I hope I don't cloak my reply in a fog of words which have no function other than to "muddy the waters".
Are you back to the idea that Revelation was intended to be some sort of secret code?Quote:
Revelation was written for a definite purpose. That's why the book almost didn't make the cut into the canon.
Dufus sycophant ultra conservative Ken Cuccinelli said the immigration poem on the statue of liberty was only meant for Europeans. Is that true or is that blatant racism right in front of our faces?
https://time.com/5651068/trump-immig...ue-of-liberty/
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