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Originally Posted by Athos

Leveling Germany after WW1 led directly to 50 million dead in WW2. Building it up again after WW2 gave the world 75 years (and counting) without a major world war.

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But in reality it is just taking longer because the protagonists have changed. You think that Germany has been taken out of the equation, absorbed, it is true few conquerors who fall rise again quickly, particularly after they have been crushed more than once
but Germany now has the economic domination it sought and only Russia keeps it in check. Germany will not be a military power again but they will try to forge Europe into one. If Germany hadn't been led by a lunatic they might have succeeded in WWII, expanding their borders and reunifying their race

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Originally Posted by paraclete

If Germany hadn't been led by a lunatic they might have succeeded in WWII

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If Germany hadn't been led by a lunatic, there never would have been a WW2 to succeed in.

Paraclete is correct: Germany seeks to conquer Europe AGAIN but by a different route......the refugees were simply a ploy to get the other nations distracted while they worked on the plan....to Germany, Russia is an obstacle!

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Paraclete is correct: Germany seeks to conquer Europe AGAIN but by a different route......to Germany, Russia is an obstacle!

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Russia is an obstacle to many countries, especially Ukraine. I don't think Germany is unique in that. Oddly, Russia's best friend seems to the good ol' USA, at least as long as Vlad's boyfriend is in power.

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(Germany's) refugees were simply a ploy to get the other nations distracted while they worked on the plan

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What refugees? What ploy? What distractions? What plan? A brief explanation will be welcome.

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Originally Posted by Athos

Russia is an obstacle to many countries, especially Ukraine. I don't think Germany is unique in that. Oddly, Russia's best friend seems to the good ol' USA, at least as long as Vlad's boyfriend is in power.



What refugees? What ploy? What distractions? What plan? A brief explanation will be welcome.

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Speaking of which,

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...russia-1689531


Checking to see if this will be part of the money grab for wall money program the dufus has initiated. There are report that other Eastern European defensive military projects are part of this project but cannot confirm that at this time but just speculating if the dufus is help Vlad's interests, or our own, and our allies. Vlad would love to destroy NATO, and is the dufus and his right wing Euro/Americans helping him out?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

There are report that other Eastern European defensive military projects are part of this project but cannot confirm that at this time but just speculating if the dufus is help Vlad's interests, or our own, and our allies. Vlad would love to destroy NATO, and is the dufus and his right wing Euro/Americans helping him out?

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Rachel Maddow show had long list of official projects de-funded to build wall. Put out by the White House.

Yes. just about every Eastern European project has been cancelled. She might have the list on her web site. Exactly what one thought Trump would have done.

Another one for the Courts.

Look, gentlemen, we (the West) tried like hell to emasculate the German nation and form it in our image (the part ofit we had in ou possession)….this was nation building which everyone supported, and it sounds like you also supported when you talk about 75 years of peace....And I bet a lot of you think we made Germany into a nation of placid, flaccid, and nonaggressive bunch: You think we re-engineered the German people....if you think that, you are way wrong: Like Paraclete alluded to earlier: The Germans are just pursuing another tactic to conquer Europe: Use your brains! You still are caught up in Cold War mantra: Its obsolete! The Russians aren't the troublemaker (forget Crimea, which is ethnically Russian and was Russian until '58)….the Germans want us to stay at odds with Russia because it helps them get more room to maneuver and draw more nation into the German web, better known as the E.U. The whole deal with Brexit and them trying to make and example that its the wrong thing to do is all about preventing other nations from breaking away from Greater Germany E.U.

All this time I thought California and New York were trying to conquer the world. Okay Vac7 where did you get such a position from?

Talaniman: You could say it was a rather dynamic equation that brought me to this conclusion....I won't bother you with the constants or the coefficients but the variables include: 1) being of German heritage myself, kind of an insider's information, psychologically and family history wise, 2) knowing something of German history, 3) working with many Germans in my field of Engineering, 4) seeing the inter-behavior of Germany change since the fall of the wall, and seeing the intra-behavior of Germany since the fall of the wall. I wouldn't trust Germany in an outhouse even with them having a muzzle on: don't turn your back on them.

You don't have to trust anyone to deal with them, and Germans are hardly the only humans with ambitions, or need muzzles. I could share a few equations myself.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You don't have to trust anyone to deal with them, and Germans are hardly the only humans with ambitions, or need muzzles. I could share a few equations myself.

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Do Tell, hope your advice starts at home

I agree Clete if only the congress of the US would emulate the parliment of the UK and push back on the big mouth bully talking crazy. We seem to let our loony dufus run roughshod instead of standing up against the bully.

The U.S. President is the U.S. President: The most powerful man in the world: You aren't going to push him but one time before he'll react in an unpredictable and retaliatory way. Pushing Trump is not without risks: His shear will and enormous personality are the reason why the Republican won the contested Congressional Seat in N.C. this week. The President is not equaled by Congress and the idea that he is equaled by Congress is not realistic.

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

The U.S. President is the U.S. President: The most powerful man in the world: You aren't going to push him but one time before he'll react in an unpredictable and retaliatory way. Pushing Trump is not without risks: His shear will and enormous personality are the reason why the Republican won the contested Congressional Seat in N.C. this week. The President is not equaled by Congress and the idea that he is equaled by Congress is not realistic.

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And I thought your constitution placed the three pillars in balance. What a crock

Paraclete: That's the way the engine is supposed to be tuned but its a bit out of tune at present: When one man can give the order to "PUSH THE BUTTON," and only one man can, do you really think that the three branches are equal? Not hardly. Now, Paraclete, when I frame it in that light, it looks a little bit different, doesn't?

Elements of the U.S. Government design are a little adulterated currently and The POTUS has no equals. It might come back into equilibrium one day but there are no guarantees.

However, you can rest assured and have no fear: No matter how the U.S. is governed, the U.S. is still in charge of its faculties and the faculties of many other nations.

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However, you can rest assured and have no fear: No matter how the U.S. is governed, the U.S. is still in charge of its faculties and the faculties of many other nations.

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On the contrary, I think we all need to fear the outcomes from a nation which thinks it rules the world, and which is ruled by a petulant child

We don't RULE the world but no doubt we dominate many areas of it, and are a catalyst for many countries economies because we deal with darn near everyone in one way or another, especially allies that are militarily challenged against bigger dogs than them. That's just what the big dogs do and have done until they cannot. Don't like it don't deal with us Clete, but as long as you are, stop whining about it. Or is that all the little dogs can do, whine about the big dog.

That's cool if you do it from the safety of your own porch.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I think we all need to fear the outcomes from a nation which thinks it rules the world, and which is ruled by a petulant child

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We don't think we rule the world and, compared to previous dominant world powers, we are by far the most beneficent. Can you imagine a Marshall Plan originating in any other world power with the rest of the world on its knees after a huge war? Of course, the Plan helped us to renew a market for our products. Win-win.

The US is founded on principles that its citizens fervently believe in, not always perfectly. It is these principles that are a magnet to immigrants suffering oppression all over the world. Immigrants are the spice of America coming in all flavors. They are the yeast, leavening and rising.

As to the petulant child, that is the saddest chapter in the nation's governance. But soon it will be no more than a forgettable footnote in this always renewing great experiment.

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As to the petulant child, that is the saddest chapter in the nation's governance. But soon it will be no more than a forgettable footnote in this always renewing great experiment.

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Indeed, and perhaps there is only one solution

What's that?

Revolution

Yes the next election, or the one after in two years.

Paraclete: We've already done one of those and kicked to same bunch out that made your home country a Penal Colony....and, we've had a Civil War, too, and the right side won that civil war, and if the right side hadn't have won it, we wouldn't be the United States Of America that we are.....we aren't about to have a redo of either The Revolutionary War or The Civil War....you can forget abut that.....No, the U.S. will opt-out of either one of these and keep building on what makes us great and makes us the envy of the world....And, if times are such that we don't like who is running the show here right now, there is an election coming up and we will let the people of the U.S. decide AT THE BALLOT BOX EXACTLY WHO they do want in Office, whatever the Office/s will be.....Don't let a bunch of idiots or goons running around our streets make you think that the U.S. is out of control here at home, the Engine For Democracy is turned on and running on all cylinders. We have a system in place for almost 250 years now that gives us a blueprint of how to operate these United States and it works pretty darned good...and we aren't changing anything. And, believe me, the people of the U.S. might do some fighting amongst ourselves but its kids play compared to the fighting that any outsiders will find if they try to interfere with how we run things here at home.....they best leave us alone.....In the end, Americans stick together.

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Originally Posted by vacuum7

paraclete: We've already done one of those and kicked to same bunch out that made your home country a penal colony....and, we've had a civil war, too, and the right side won that civil war, and if the right side hadn't have won it, we wouldn't be the united states of america that we are.....we aren't about to have a redo of either the revolutionary war or the civil war....you can forget abut that.....no, the u.s. Will opt-out of either one of these and keep building on what makes us great and makes us the envy of the world....and, if times are such that we don't like who is running the show here right now, there is an election coming up and we will let the people of the u.s. Decide at the ballot box exactly who they do want in office, whatever the office/s will be.....don't let a bunch of idiots or goons running around our streets make you think that the u.s. Is out of control here at home, the engine for democracy is turned on and running on all cylinders. We have a system in place for almost 250 years now that gives us a blueprint of how to operate these united states and it works pretty darned good...and we aren't changing anything. And, believe me, the people of the u.s. Might do some fighting amongst ourselves but its kids play compared to the fighting that any outsiders will find if they try to interfere with how we run things here at home.....they best leave us alone.....in the end, americans stick together.

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extremely well said!

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Paraclete: We've already done one of those and kicked to same bunch out that made your home country a Penal Colony....and, we've had a Civil War, too, and the right side won that civil war, and if the right side hadn't have won it, we wouldn't be the United States Of America that we are.....we aren't about to have a redo of either The Revolutionary War or The Civil War....you can forget abut that.....No, the U.S. will opt-out of either one of these and keep building on what makes us great and makes us the envy of the world....And, if times are such that we don't like who is running the show here right now, there is an election coming up and we will let the people of the U.S. decide AT THE BALLOT BOX EXACTLY WHO they do want in Office, whatever the Office/s will be.....Don't let a bunch of idiots or goons running around our streets make you think that the U.S. is out of control here at home, the Engine For Democracy is turned on and running on all cylinders. We have a system in place for almost 250 years now that gives us a blueprint of how to operate these United States and it works pretty darned good...and we aren't changing anything. And, believe me, the people of the U.S. might do some fighting amongst ourselves but its kids play compared to the fighting that any outsiders will find if they try to interfere with how we run things here at home.....they best leave us alone.....In the end, Americans stick together.

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What is a great shame is you didn't learn from any of it. The fact is you didn't need a revolution to become a great nation, nor did you need a civil war to tear your country apart. You cannot say you stick together because you remain divided. I have no doubt there are pockets where life is good, good for the privileged, but what does your ballot box do? every two years it creates a situation where the government is in stalemate and it takes a crisis for you to agree on anything.

You americans like to talk about our roots as a penal colony but the start of your nation is hardly much different, people driven from their homes to a far shore where they barely survived

Paraclete: No, we needed a revolution to gain independence and we had a civil war because the nation WAS tearing itself apart with state trying to secede from the Union...that wasn't going to be allowed. The U.S. became great by how we grew as a nation out of those conflicts.

Don't take what I said as an affront to Australia, that certainly wasn't the intent, at all....Australia has done pretty well for itself, by all indications, too.....and Australia and the U.S. have a lot in common and it isn't just the commonality of the language. And guess what: A lot of countries think we're both uncultured heathens and probably always will....you can't please everybody.

The U.S. is still a society in continual development...and it will be that way going forward, as far into the future as we can see......and the truth be know, that is what was intended by the Founding Fathers from the start of it all: Continual honing, continual sharpening, trying to make it better and better as we go. Granted, we have a ways to go even yet but we won't stop....and they'll be plenty of injustices discovered and corrected along the way.

The ballot box is the best way for free citizens to address grievances with those who are in government elected offices....this, too, was by design! Yes, we have a lot of hoopla every couple of years, a lot of shouting and screaming and finger pointing and dire predictions of doom and gloom but once those elections are over we tend to settle down and keep moving forward TOGETHER!

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A lot of countries think we're both uncultured heathens and probably always will....

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You really do only speak for yourself and about yourself, what anyoneelse thinks is a mystery to you. You think you have something in common with us. What might that be, I wonder?

Paraclete: What we have in common? Hhmmm? Not too hard to see the similarities: 1) language, 2) same parent nation, 3) conflicts with same parent nation, 4) looked down on as by same parent nation, 5) allies in 2 World Wars and 2 police action conflicts, 6) trading partners, 7) problems with immigration, 8) problems with terrorists....and there are others....But, man, you guys are way ahead of us on immigration: You just said that if you land here you CAN NOT STAY, YOU WILL BE RETURNED TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM! Trump could learn from you.

You had me in your corner with your analysis, but having brown people, kids and women mostly, but men too, in cages or jail if you prefer, while white Euros have never been treated like or worse than zoo animals, is but a lesson in blatant racism.

Maybe Australia can get away with it, but a nation of immigrants should never be involved with that kind of behavior. Another point you left out is the EUROS conquering an occupied land, a history we both share though they skipped the import of blacks in chains to build a country.

They owe no back pay to generations of free labor.

Talaniman: I was using IRONY.....or at least trying to use it.....I guess I screwed that up...I ain't very good at it, obviously! I didn't mean that WE should do it. literally! We don't need to do that.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You had me in your corner with your analysis, but having brown people, kids and women mostly, but men too, in cages or jail if you prefer, while white Euros have never been treated like or worse than zoo animals, is but a lesson in blatant racism.

Maybe Australia can get away with it, but a nation of immigrants should never be involved with that kind of behavior. Another point you left out is the EUROS conquering an occupied land, a history we both share though they skipped the import of blacks in chains to build a country.

They owe no back pay to generations of free labor.

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We got some free labour we just sent them back where they came from, a mistake on your part to keep them, not on ours. As to occupied land, yes there were people here, a bit thin on the ground, but it is acknowledged a little difficult to know what part was occupied, no signs, no fences, etc.


Yes Tal is right we have had to pay for what we got, to carve a nation out of a wilderness, this we do have in common with you but there the similarity ends

Paraclete: You really don't believe that having carved a nation out of wilderness is all the U.S. and Australia have in common, do you? Mother tongue is a huge similarity.....as is having the same mother! Not to mention: Australia is a bit of a "melting pot" as is the U.S. There are more commonalities than there are differences!

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Paraclete: You really don't believe that having carved a nation out of wilderness is all the U.S. and Australia have in common, do you? Mother tongue is a huge similarity.....as is having the same mother! Not to mention: Australia is a bit of a "melting pot" as is the U.S. There are more commonalities than there are differences!

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Vac, t'is sad that the heavy foot of the British walked both lands, however, there are many Irish here and we borrow some of our thinking from them, while you filled yourself from Europe's displaced we were not so quick to follow. Your elite doesn't have the same compositions as ours, so those commonalities may not be what you think. You play two peculiar games, the understanding of which is beyond us. Our melting pot has some notable differences, we are Australians, we make no distinction regarding where we have come from and any man who does is regarded as fool.

Paraclete: Now you say the thing that I think: If the U.S. has ever made a big mistake, it is how we continue to discern differences amongst people....a practice that should have gone out of favor long ago. How are we supposed to have "unity" when we continue to make sure we are so succinct about what we are in terms of race or otherwise ethnicity? It has always been a bone spur to me because this "race identity" serves no purpose other than continuing down a road which doesn't have a good ending. Yes, must agree with you: Australia has, as has Brazil, done a much better job at stitching this up than we have.....I believe it has to come to and end in the U.S. if we are going to ever move the ball forward.

I disagree with you both, since obviously racism, hidden, institutionalized or politicized is an effective tool for those in power to keep power and what better weapon than one that divides the groups through fear and hatred instead of celebrating the similarities despite the differences.

More and more those that are dominated by the fear and hate are simply growing outnumbered, so safe for me to say that stupid stuff will slowly come to an end and the haters will have little choice but shut the freak up! Hope I see it in my lifetime. Celebrate the differences, why not?

Talaniman: That's kind of what we are saying, the difference that we are talking about between Australia and the U.S. is that in the U.S., WE LEAD EVERYTHING WITH THE IDENTIFICATION OF RACE, most of the time before anything else, on government documents, civic documentation, etc., and Australia does not....to the Aussies, everyone is an Aussie FIRST, they are free to maintain their own identities and aren't persecuted for it, but race doesn't come into the conversation. I just think that the way we do it divides people into groups...not good!

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Talaniman: That's kind of what we are saying, the difference that we are talking about between Australia and the U.S. is that in the U.S., WE LEAD EVERYTHING WITH THE IDENTIFICATION OF RACE, most of the time before anything else, on government documents, civic documentation, etc., and Australia does not....to the Aussies, everyone is an Aussie FIRST, they are free to maintain their own identities and aren't persecuted for it, but race doesn't come into the conversation. I just think that the way we do it divides people into groups...not good!

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Thanks Vac, you know I buy my Fish and Chips from a Thai who spends his winters in Thailand, I often visit a Chinese restaurant, the owners have australian names, there are Irish pubs in this town and noone gives a fig where you come from, only that you want to live here and be part of the community. Having said that, you come here legally or you don't come at all. Now I want to know what that braggart who leads you is going to do about the challenge that has been placed before him. I think he will whimper like the pu$$y he is

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Originally Posted by Vacuum7

Talaniman: That's kind of what we are saying, the difference that we are talking about between Australia and the U.S. is that in the U.S., WE LEAD EVERYTHING WITH THE IDENTIFICATION OF RACE, most of the time before anything else, on government documents, civic documentation, etc., and Australia does not....to the Aussies, everyone is an Aussie FIRST, they are free to maintain their own identities and aren't persecuted for it, but race doesn't come into the conversation. I just think that the way we do it divides people into groups...not good!

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Ethnic identity, or acknowledgement there of is not a bad thing unless it becomes used that way. No doubt people have their prejudices and bigotries but it does take a willful person to make it a weapon, and that's exactly what we have. People who use the cultural/racial differences a divide for their own purpose.

Not so easy to do in some countries, like Australia where the Euro culture is extremely dominant. Much easier here where the minorities are becoming majorities. Let's face it, a segment of the Euro descendants here ain't giving that heritage up without a fight.

Paraclete: I like the Australian style when it comes to how they handle people: how they assimilate them and how they handle raw immigration.....I like the legality of how you gentlemen do it: I believe we need to stick by our laws, otherwise, why have the laws in the first place.

I guess you are referring to The POTUS, President Trump....but what challenge are you referring to because he is confronting many right now. I don't think he is the greatest POTUS of all time but he certainly is not the worst, either. You call him a P@#%& but I don't think that applies to him....he is confrontational and up front about things facing the nation, possibly more so than any POTUS ever. He has so much $$$ that situations and fear of losing never enter his thoughts. Ahhh: the freedom of clear thoughts that only $$$s can bring. Money is, truly, the root of all evil but you must have it to survive.

I refer to the challenge of Iran, which is a manifestation of Islam, just as Saudi Arabia is a manifestation of Islam and the great challenge is to contain these forces which are like matter and anti-matter. Other issues are largely of his making. Money doesn't bring clarity of thought, it brings fear, fear of loss