There is no line for having a turn otherwise Joe wouldn't want to try againQuote:
Originally Posted by waltero
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There is no line for having a turn otherwise Joe wouldn't want to try againQuote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Yesterday the House along party lines voted to repeal the 2001 Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF ) that has been used by Presidents Bush ,the emperor ,and Trump to attack targets as long as they were linked to terrorism . Now we hear that Iran shot down a US Navy MQ-4C Drone (cost $120 million) over international waters in the Straits of Hormuz (Iran claims it was in Iranian air space ,but that is easily verifiable ) . This now gives the President the authority to attack Iranian military targets without the cover of AUMF . The question is ;why does Iran want to go to war with the US ? This drone is the 2nd one they've targeted in a week . Previously they attacked a drone near the tanker they attacked .
Contrary to claims Trump is prodding Iran into war, the president and his admin have responded to escalating Iranian provocations with restraint bordering on weakness. I think that his comments today that the attack could be from some military officer acting outside of policy from Tehran may have prevented the markets from going crazy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
How is it easily verifiable?
After the Pentagon papers, Gulf of Tonkin, Iraq WMDs, and others, the current rush to war in Iran (if that's what it is), I have a hard time believing the US Gov't when it flexes its military muscles. This is a great shame and seems to be bipartisan. The wrong guys have their finger on the trigger and Trump is by far the worst but he seems to be the cool head in the room if the news reports are accurate. Trump as a war leader is terrifying.
Pick your potentate, dufus took the Saudis. Neither is worth a crap, and Vlad likes them both. You think the 12ers will talk to the dufus about anything? It's a mess that's bound to get messier. Or you could go with door 3...the UFO's.
multiple nations have gps .Quote:
How is it easily verifiable?
and yet you were so willing to believe the intel agency when it said that Trump was colluding .Quote:
After the Pentagon papers, Gulf of Tonkin, Iraq WMDs, and others, the current rush to war in Iran (if that's what it is), I have a hard time believing the US Gov't when it flexes its military muscles.
nope ,they play American leaders who think they can be negotiated with . If it were up to me there would already be a big crater where the SAM was launched .Quote:
You think the 12ers will talk to the dufus about anything?
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Translate, please.
I don't know, I hear he plays a mean game of RISK...terrifying for the other side?Quote:
Trump as a war leader is terrifying.
This drone is reported to have been lost by its control so the GPS would not work to locate it. I assume we'll know shortly, but maybe not.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Generally, the intel agencies get it right, but not always. You have to take many factors into account. Mueller's report, for example, clearly showed obstruction of justice by Trump. And we all know the reasons behind not charging Trump since the DOJ regards him as a Divine Right King.Quote:
and yet you were so willing to believe the intel agency when it said that Trump was colluding.
the 12ers ? They are the cult that runs Iran. They think the 12th Iman will return from the well he fell into and will restore greatness in Islam. I call followers of the 12th Madhi, the Mahdi Hatters
https://www.thoughtco.com/who-is-the-12th-imam-3555177
Tal believes that there is a great conflict between Shia and Sunni and Iran and Saudi Arabia are the dominant nations of the 2 sects . He is not wrong. Before the Ayatolah asshola took over Iran ,the US built it's ME policy on the two pillars of balanced relations between the 2 nations .That ended when the Iran mullahs declared war on the US in 1979(a war they have not quit ). So the US threw it's support to the Saudi's . The emperor tried to change the equation by doing a big US surrender . His calculation was that if Iran became a regional hegemon then there would be no needs for us to be there . He miscalculated . Iran attacked us with SAMS paid for in US dollars .
source ? I have not seen that reportQuote:
This drone is reported to have been lost by its control
Thank you. Helpful info.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
https://www.thoughtco.com/who-is-the-12th-imam-3555177
Thank you again. Good history lesson. I knew maybe one-third to one-half of this but not all of it. You and Tal are way ahead of me.Quote:
Tal believes that there is a great conflict between Shia and Sunni and Iran and Saudi Arabia are the dominant nations of the 2 sects . He is not wrong. Before the Ayatolah asshola took over Iran ,the US built it's ME policy on the two pillars of balanced relations between the 2 nations .That ended when the Iran mullahs declared war on the US in 1979(a war they have not quit ). So the US threw it's support to the Saudi's . The emperor tried to change the equation by doing a big US surrender . His calculation was that if Iran became a regional hegemon then there would be no needs for us to be there . He miscalculated . Iran attacked us with SAMS paid for in US dollars .
However, your conclusion about Obama's diplomatic efforts seem wrong. His trying to equalize the situation must have seemed worth a try. Iranian hegemony still seems to be the only thing to balance the Trump/Saudi gang. I think the current mess could have been avoided if Trump had not broken the agreement with Iran.
CNN's Barbara Starr reported from the Pentagon that her sources there told her the drone was lost as it traversed the western border of Afghanistan apparently on a trajectory toward Iran. Yet to be confirmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
After intensely searching all over the internet for the Starr CNN report, it's nowhere to be found. I know for a fact I heard and saw her saying this on the noon CNN news show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
After all the internet searching, I think this is what happened. In 2011, a similar incident occurred re a US drone and Iran. Reports for that event reveal Starr saying exactly what I claimed she said today. I think CNN ran that old clip as similar to today's drone event, but I came in in the middle and CNN then went to commercial after running the old clip. I mistakenly assumed it was current.
My apologies to all.
It never works out well when two hardliners square off, and since scuttling the nuclear deal and tightening the noose around Iran fireworks are inevitable at some point after throwing the "moderates under the bus. The Iranians aren't the real problem, it's that radical Revolutionary Guard with Vlad behind them that's the real problem. Yes and the dufus should know them rather well also,
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...ump-tower-baku
I was thinking the western border of Iran is quite a distance from the Gulf of Hormuz. It is possible that it strayed ;but the distance being disputed is about 17 miles .
17 miles is nothing for an drone that tops 300MPH easily when cruising.
It would be easier if Trump could do some talking instead of postering. This is a great opportunity for reelection, he will be seen as a war president. If only the world wasn't hostage to US internal politics, but not a statesman in sight
He just gave the military the green light for strikes on Iran but called it off at the last minute. I'm no fan of Iran especially the Revolutionary Guard, but attacking without being attacked crosses a line for me even if he was faking.
The Iranians gave the GPS coordinates showing the drone was within the nautical miles allowed for Iranian territory. The Americans gave different GPS coordinates showing the drone shot down 21 miles off the Iranian coast in international waters. The disputed difference is 9 miles.
Can additional GPS coordinates be given by other countries? Is there an absolute certainty when it comes to GPS coordinates?
We are playing brinkmanship again, just because you have abig stick doesn't mean someoneelse can't fight
I guess shooting missiles at one of our military assets doesn't count as an attack.Quote:
attacking without being attacked
We should institute Operation Praying Mantis immediately .
Like you said before, 17 miles distance isn't a lot especially if you retaliate with even more shock, awe, and destruction. Not that I take Iran's version of events as truth, but I doubt they retaliate with boats, planes or soldiers either after an attack. I have no doubt they will retaliate.
They use proxy terrorists . You know that.Quote:
but I doubt they retaliate with boats, planes or soldiers either after an attack
I know that but does the dufus know? I surely hope so, because that means boots on the ground and not boats, especially if those proxy terrorist terrorize in another country. Shoot first and asking questions later is a great escalation tool not a solution.
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I think the current mess could have been avoided if Trump had not broken the agreement with Iran.
It’s hardly surprising that the Iranians are trying to sound as bellicose as possible, hoping their threats and the terrorist tactics that they have regularly employed for the last 40 years would scare the administration into backing down. Equally unsurprising is that those who backed Obama’s deal, are, like the Iranians, framing the issue as a choice between war and appeasement in the form of a weak agreement that did not accomplish what its defenders claimed for it.
That has always been a false choice.
You cast Trump as reckless regarding Iran, and then he counsels restraint and proportionality so you say he's indecisive .Quote:
Shoot first and asking questions later is a great escalation tool not a solution.
He suddenly realized that following up on his impulsive reaction and getting into a war would mess up his reelection in 2020.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
But I have been hearing the argument on this posting that this whole exercise is a wag the dog effort by him to enhance his 2020 bid So which one is it ?
That's not how I framed it so to be clear an agreement on nukes certainly opens a door for more agreements which is the purpose of diplomacy. Its never been about appeasement or war since both sides get something if not all they want. When the dufus withdrew us from a negotiated 5 country deal he basically erased years of efforts and has to start from scratch which he initiated by locking down the screws to there economy, and adding the siege military tactic like the Iranians will be forced to capitulate to abject surrender under those terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
Negotiating from a position of strength? Naw, Iranian proxies would never join such capitulation.
You certainly can't rule that out now can we?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Someone clued him in that Iran could do tremendous damage to the US in all sorts of ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
Desperate for a deal at any price, Obama also reneged on his re-election campaign promise that Iran would be forced to give up its nuclear program and, in exchange for a temporary pause in their activity to build a bomb, ended the sanctions and even agreed to a “sunset clause.” When the pact expires, Iran will be able to get its weapon anyway.Quote:
Its never been about appeasement or war since both sides get something if not all they want.
Iran agreed to negotiate a deal with Obama only when he agreed to recognize the right of Iran to undertake nuclear research and develop nuclear capability. US president Donald Trump is merely re-implementing sanctions previously imposed on Iran.
Obama and Kerry, claimed the only choices available were either war or their deal.Quote:
That's not how I framed it so to be clear
What makes a superpwer super is power. If we don't use it, whats left? Iran believes they will destroy us and acts on that conviction every day. We...seek nagoteations.
no ,he heard that there could be over 100 people killed in the strike being contemplated and determined that was not proportionate to the loss of a drone . What could Iran do if we decided to go all out on them ? Please .The leadership is hanging on by a thread now because the sanctions are working . That is why they are desperate to do something like blow up tankers and take pot shots at drones. Me ? I want to crater mark the whole coast line . But even I realize that the best course is to do even more tightening of the economic noose.Quote:
Someone clued him in that Iran could do tremendous damage to the US in all sorts of ways.
You are almost as good as the dufus at creating spin. I think it was a head fake from the beginning and he had no intention of such an action. Great talking points to show off his compassionate restraints for the news cycle though as everyone except you Tom, and Bolton gives a BIG sigh of relief. It worked on most people I supposed. He showed his control over a contrived situation.
Sort of like his tomahawk attack in Syria. All show nothing but dust, but shows he is locked and loaded and ready to go. Mission Accomplished for the weekend anyway for the orange butt drama queen.
You really believe there was no casualty assessment during the early planning stages?
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Originally Posted by talaniman
Obviously! He took the whole schtick right out of a West Wing episode. Just look at his expression telling the tale - he acts it out with quotes from his "Generals".
The timeline is disputed between Trump and the military.
Tell that to the 200+ Russian green shirts that got wasted from an American attack in Syria.Quote:
All show nothing but dust, but shows he is locked and loaded and ready to go
https://taskandpurpose.com/russian-m...a-leaked-audio
Yah, Never mind the 40+ years Obama tried to erase.Quote:
When the dufus withdrew us from a negotiated 5 country deal he basically erased years of efforts and has to start from scratch
Just at the moment when even tougher sanctions might have tightened the noose on the regime and forced it to abandon its nuclear quest as well as its support for terrorism, Obama reversed course. He chose not only to go for a narrow deal that ignored every issue but the nuclear one. Obama's deal encouraged Iran to become even more aggressive in its use of terror and its quest for regional hegemony.
Coercive Diplomacy, That is the only Diplomacy that entire region understands/respects.Quote:
the purpose of diplomacy. Its never been about appeasement or war
And your point would be what?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
I'll bite 40 year history of what?Quote:
Originally Posted by waltero
You mean 5 other signatory countries that went for the deal.Quote:
Just at the moment when even tougher sanctions might have tightened the noose on the regime and forced it to abandon its nuclear quest as well as its support for terrorism, Obama reversed course. He chose not only to go for a narrow deal that ignored every issue but the nuclear one. Obama's deal encouraged Iran to become even more aggressive in its use of terror and its quest for regional hegemony.
Don't like Arabs huh?Quote:
Coercive Diplomacy, That is the only Diplomacy that entire region understands/respects.
Sanctions.Quote:
I'll bite 40 year history of what?
They don't like each other. I have no problem with Arabs.Quote:
Don't like Arabs huh?
You are nuts if you think the Mussies want to be our Friends. Certainly your not suggesting that trump go back to the Deal "Deal"?
40 years of sanctions with no results? Didn't work in Cuba either. Time to change tactics.
What else are they suppose to learn while continuing to look at the barrel of the gun as a communication tool?Quote:
Coercive Diplomacy, That is the only Diplomacy that entire region understands/respects.
It is like this all over the Middle East. It is very sad, but true.
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