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What part of the preamble was misquoted ?

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We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Regarding limited government ;The measure is that the Constitution allows for what the government can do ;or in the case of some amendments what it cannot do . Anything else the goverment does is outside constitutional law.

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“It will not be denied that power is of an encroaching nature and that it ought to be effectually restrained from passing the limits assigned to it.”

James Madison 'Federalist 48'

States can and do govern themselves effectively mostly, but the federal government must be big enough to effectively fulfill it's obligation to all citizens. It's just common sense that as the population grows, so does the federal government. What stops the rich and powerful states from starving the smaller poorer ones? The FEDS. Isn't that what makes a nation, the central government? If not then we would have independent country states, that could do as they please. At least that's the theory, though I suspect the founders wanted some influence on the federal government for their own purposes.

Hello electoral college. Let's not forget senators were appointed by party bosses not the people.

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Let's not forget senators were appointed by party bosses not the people.

incorrect . The Senators were appointed by the States legislatures without a popular vote .
As envisioned by the Framers , the Senate was to represent state interests in Congress. The House of Representatives was meant to be the part of the legislative branch closest to the people.It took a lot of thought and debate to come up with the bicameral nature of the Congress. It was designed specifically to address the balance of interests of big and small states .
I'm for repeal of the 17th amendment . If there is a single cause to the rapid growth of the national government and the undermining of federalism ,it is the adoption of the 17th . And that is why I favor an article 5 convention because I know the Senate post 17th amendment can dictate to the state which amendments can be considered without a convention .

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The Senators were appointed by the States legislatures without a popular vote .

Like I said party bosses...STATE party bosses. The point being not elected so who where they ACCOUNTABLE to?

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Like I said party bosses...STATE party bosses. The point being not elected so who where they ACCOUNTABLE to?

So if the state legislature's are composed of party bosses, then who do you think makes up the Congress of the United States? And if it is likewise party bosses, then why should we trust them anymore than the state party bosses?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Like I said party bosses...STATE party bosses. The point being not elected so who where they ACCOUNTABLE to?

Who WERE they accountable TO! Storming like heck here!

They were accountable to the state. State legislatures get elected . Congressional Reps were responsible to the people . It was a good balance in a Federal system. What you want is the elimination of the autonomous state in this country where all decisions are made by representatives of the largest populated states ;or even worse by the swamp critters in the federal beurocracy who are indeed not accountable to the electorate ,the states ,or even some of the elected officials they purportedly serve..

No that's not at all what I want, but we know for fact that whatever party gets power there are many ways to keep it that may not be apparent to everyone, such as gerrymandering the congressional districts, purging the voter rolls, or packing, and all kinds of rules, regulations and laws that challenge one group or another, or favors one group or another.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You still seem like an angry person to me.

You're darn right I'm angry. So should you be.

1,700 children separated from their parents and housed in cages the Trump Administration calls detention centers - more like concentration camps. Ingraham calls them "like summer camp".

This is done purposely. Five children dead since December in these camps due to lack of or absence of treatment. Are you angry yet?

Don't deflect with Hillary and Obama. She was cleared by 8 committees re Benghazi mostly led by Republicans and some bipartisan. No evidence of wrongdoing was ever found. Those are facts. The past is history. Now is now.

You claim you don't support Trump's behavior, only his policies. What policies? He doesn't have any, other than what he sees as supporting how own self at any given moment in time. And his behavior informs his "policies" - you can't have it both ways. In for policies, in for behavior.

The world wonders why so many evangelical Christians love the guy. They publicly agree his behavior is despicable, yet they cheer Trump on at rally after rally - "Lock them up, lock them up", they scream. Not exactly an imitation of Christ.

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Originally Posted by Athos

The world wonders why so many evangelical Christians love the guy. They publicly agree his behavior is despicable, yet they cheer Trump on at rally after rally - "Lock them up, lock them up", they scream. Not exactly an imitation of Christ.

I think you need to be careful about bringing Christ into your arguments. Christians, like everyone else, are not perfect, so don't sit in judgment when choosing the lesser of two evils. Yes, political criminals of all persuasions should be tried, but not in the court of public opinion. Trump is continually tried in the court of public opinion. And you do not know whether people at a rally are Christians or agitators

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1,700 children separated from their parents and housed in cages the Trump Administration calls detention centers - more like concentration camps. Ingraham calls them "like summer camp".

So it would be better to put the children in jail with the parents? The problem lies with the idea that if you bring your children with you, you will have a better chance of being allowed to stay. That needs to be actively discouraged. To call the detention centers concentration camps tells me you must not know much about the Nazi concentration camps.

As to the subject of who evangelical Christians should have supported, there was no godly choice, so I went with the one who did not support abortion and who had some chance of reviving the economy, which was important to everyone looking for a job and for the poor. You will never see the day when I would vote for HC or anyone like her. Your objection is a valid one. Trump's character is pretty low, but the part you leave out of your argument is that there was not much alternative to Trump for the person who lives for Christ.

It's just politics. You object to Trump but, I guess, supported HC and BO, which means you have no entitlement to the moral high ground.

Putting asylum seekers in jail in the first place is no where near a humane process and since you saw them comming then maybe we could be better prepared instead of hollering and screaming. That's the cruel way this dufus operates though and someone suffers whatever he does...except HIM.

1 Attachment(s)

Note the pic below taken in 2014 when you and the ever supportive (of Mr. Obama) media were saying nothing about cages. The truth is, many of these children were from families who attempted to cross illegally. And you might want to read the link below the pic to find out that the situation is not nearly so bad as you attempt to portray it.

Attachment 49170

https://www.truthorfiction.com/trump...dren-in-cages/

we used to have Ellis Island to screen immigrants . When they came here sick they were turned away . Trump should not be blamed when some one comes here with the flu and then dies from the flu.

Naw the dufus hates brown kids and his cruelty knows no bounds.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2...n-migrant-kids

Yeah. Let's just pay no attention to the truth and go with ignoring the law.

Now what law could that be?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Yeah. Let's just pay no attention to the truth and go with ignoring the law.

You guys are amazing. You're caught supporting an obvious evil, and you go right on supporting that evil. You learned that double-down business from your role model, Donald Trump. Evil laws need to be ignored. Ethics 101.

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You guys are amazing. You're caught supporting an obvious evil, and you go right on supporting that evil. You learned that double-down business from your role model, Donald Trump. Evil laws need to be ignored. Ethics 101.

There is a loose balance of good and evil, and that the art of living consists in getting the greatest good out of the greatest evil.

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Now what law could that be?

Entering the United States illegally.

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You guys are amazing. You're caught supporting an obvious evil, and you go right on supporting that evil. You learned that double-down business from your role model, Donald Trump

Please tell us that you did not vote for HC. If you did, then your ability to be critical of evil has come to an end.

Migrants seeking asylum is not illegal under US law. Doesn't matter if it's through a port of entry, or over, under, around or through a fence.

PS

HC would have made a better prez than this dufus, darn near anyone would. Repubs would be going nuts trying to impeach her.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Trump is continually tried in the court of public opinion. And you do not know whether people at a rally are Christians or agitators

And deservedly so since Trump brings it all upon his head by his bizarre public behavior and public tweets. A sizable fraction of Trump's base are evangelical Christians. Of course, they're at his rallies.

If Trump is the lesser of two evils, who's number one? Beelzebub?

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

So it would be better to put the children in jail with the parents? The problem lies with the idea that if you bring your children with you, you will have a better chance of being allowed to stay. That needs to be actively discouraged.

Your support of the camps is noted. You have chosen one wrong in place of another wrong.

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To call the detention centers concentration camps tells me you must not know much about the Nazi concentration camps.

Just so you know, those Nazi camps started as detention centers for criminals. They graduated to communists, anti-Nazis, all the way to the Final Solution.

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As to the subject of who evangelical Christians should have supported, there was no godly choice, so I went with the one who did not support abortion

As I've said before, to you abortion is the main and only "godly choice" - everything else is secondary.

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who had some chance of reviving the economy

As everyone but you seems to know, the economy was reviving under Obama.

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You will never see the day when I would vote for HC

She was miles better than Trump. It's about time for you to realize that.

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It's just politics. You object to Trump but, I guess, supported HC and BO, which means you have no entitlement to the moral high ground.

You have no idea who I supported. I do not claim any high ground. I am simply observing the facts of what this WH disaster has done and continues to do.

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Originally Posted by Athos

And deservedly so since Trump brings it all upon his head by his bizarre behavior and tweets. A sizable fraction of Trump's base are evangelical Christians. Of course, they're at his rallies.

If Trump is the lesser of two evils, who's number one? Beelzebub?

Beelzebub takes many forms, but evil can also take many forms. Rampant unchecked socialism is an evil, Venezuela is the latest example, Soviet Russia was another. Belligerent, bellicose war mongering is another. So Obama, Bush, Trump are evils in that regard, Hilliary would have been no different. Unfortunately in this world what we have isn't good opposing evil, but evil opposing evil.

Don't blame Christians for this. What they want is peace, prosperity, freedom from oppression and they see the left as oppression. Can't blame them look at the track record

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She was miles better than Trump. It's about time for you to realize that.

What difference would that make?

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observing the facts of what this WH disaster has done and continues to do.

On and on it goes, where it stops nobody knows.

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Originally Posted by waltero

What difference would that make?

you are right absolutely none, but then the american people have been spared the draconian taxation of Obamacare, so some upside

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On and on it goes, where it stops nobody knows.

It cannot end, like the elephant the donkey never forgets

You always have an interesting albeit gloomy view of Americans Clete, but these peace loving Christians made a deal with a devil, who is anything but peaceful, or even orderly for that matter. Chaos would be a better description.

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As everyone but you seems to know, the economy was reviving under Obama.

Obama is the ONLY eight year pres who never had a single quarter of 3% GDP growth. That's not what I call a "reviving" economy. He kept the wheels from falling off the cart, so give him that, but at a cost of doubling the national debt. You need to engage the facts.

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She was miles better than Trump. It's about time for you to realize that.

Completely absurd statement. One of the funnier moments in the campaign was when a democrat was asked to identify HC's greatest accomplishment. The person stammered and stuttered and finally came up with nothing. She had an empty professional life.

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I do not claim any high ground. I am simply observing the facts of what this WH disaster has done and continues to do.

Of course you do. No one who voted for HC can be critical of those who voted for Trump, and yet you want to sit in judgement of those who voted for Trump and do so continually.

If this economy is a disaster, then we need a lot more of that kind of disaster.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Obama is the ONLY eight year pres who never had a single quarter of 3% GDP growth. That's not what I call a "reviving" economy. He kept the wheels from falling off the cart, so give him that, but at a cost of doubling the national debt. You need to engage the facts.

You always conveniently ignore the fact that Obama inherited a disaster from your Republicans.

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She had an empty professional life.

First Lady, senator and secretary of state - you should have such an empty professional life. As much as I dislike Trump, it pales compared to your undying HATRED of all things Hillary Clinton.

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No one who voted for HC can be critical of those who voted for Trump.

Talk about absurd. Trump invites criticism every single day. The latest is his temper tantrum leaving a planned meeting because he didn't have a clue what to do. He's 72 going on 8. And you have no idea who I voted for. You have a habit of making assumptions to fit your pro-Trump agenda.

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If this economy is a disaster, then we need a lot more of that kind of disaster.

There you go again, putting words in my mouth that were never there. I said TRUMP is the disaster. The economy was saved by Obama who prevented it from becoming a world-wide depression.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You always have an interesting albeit gloomy view of Americans Clete, but these peace loving Christians made a deal with a devil, who is anything but peaceful, or even orderly for that matter. Chaos would be a better description.

How can you talk about deals with the devil with a straight face, Tal? after Obama, after Hilliary. You know nothing of chaos in the US, Tal. Chaos is something that happens elsewhere, probably at the instigation of Washington. I actually think it doesn't matter who is in the WH, chaos is stock in trade

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First Lady, senator and secretary of state - you should have such an empty professional life. As much as I dislike Trump, it pales compared to your undying HATRED of all things Hillary Clinton.

Those are titles, not accomplishments. I don't hate HC, but I do hate this concept that the holier than thou crowd can sit on top of Mount Righteousness and proclaim judgement on the rest of us, acting as though voting for HC was somehow a vote for character and efficiency. Let me add that being first lady is hardly a professional accomplishment.

Obama inherited nothing worse than what Reagan inherited from Carter, but Reagan had one quarter of almost 8% GDP growth, and he did it without the daily whining we had to hear from Obama. I will give Obama some credit in that things did not get worse with him, but to say that he had a "reviving" economy is overstating the truth. The economy merely limped along with Obama.

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And you have no idea who I voted for.

You don't seem to have the courage to say who you voted for, but if I assume you did not vote for Trump, and I think that's a pretty safe assumption, then let's see now. Who would that leave that you might have voted for?

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How can you talk about deals with the devil with a straight face, Tal? after Obama, after Hilliary. You know nothing of chaos in the US, Tal. Chaos is something that happens elsewhere, probably at the instigation of Washington. I actually think it doesn't matter who is in the WH, chaos is stock in trade

That's how off track you are Clete as HC was never the president, and Obama was when the GFC hit the world. He saved your Aussie butt too, after the Bush financial disaster. Now that was chaos whether you conservatives acknowledge it or not.

yes Bush shares the blame because he continued the Clintoon housing policies (btw the real culprit was il Duce Andrew Cuomo the miserable piece of human excrement who is the Governor of the state I live in) . Bush also share responsibility because he foolishly got suckered into believing that a bail out of the banks was the remedy . Also don't dismiss the emperor's role in the GWOT . He was a community activist back then that was pressuring banks to give out risky loans to the poor . He also extended the GWOT with his ridiculous economic polices like the stimulus program and his burdensome regulations ,

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Originally Posted by tomder55

yes Bush shares the blame because he continued the Clintoon housing policies (btw the real culprit was il Duce Andrew Cuomo the miserable piece of human excrement who is the Governor of the state I live in) . Bush also share responsibility because he foolishly got suckered into believing that a bail out of the banks was the remedy . Also don't dismiss the emperor's role in the GWOT . He was a community activist back then that was pressuring banks to give out risky loans to the poor . He also extended the GWOT with his ridiculous economic polices like the stimulus program and his burdensome regulations ,

This is a load of crap and you know it. Goldman Sachs et al falsified packages of mortgages and sold them as AAA securities KNOWING they were toxic. Everything you wrote as a cause is nothing but phony right-wing talking points trying to excuse Wall Street. You didn't mention it but Obama's DOJ could have tried harder to indict the criminals, but it caved.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

You don't seem to have the courage to say who you voted for, but if I assume you did not vote for Trump, and I think that's a pretty safe assumption, then let's see now. Who would that leave that you might have voted for?

Courage? The real question is why are you so interested. Probably to make arguments based on voting. Better you should use intelligence and reason based on arguing the points raised. That's how discussions are carried out - not how someone voted.

By the way, for such a self-proclaimed expert on the Constitution, you seem to be unaware of the secret ballot - a hallowed tradition in America.

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Courage? The real question is why are you so interested. Probably to make arguments based on voting. Better you should use intelligence and reason based on arguing the points raised. That's how discussions are carried out - not how someone voted.

Or you don't want to admit you voted for HC because you know that would destroy your ability to raise cane about Trump's character, sort of like the pot calling the kettle black.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

Or you don't want to admit you voted for HC because you know that would destroy your ability to raise cane about Trump's character, sort of like the pot calling the kettle black.

Time for you to admit it. You support Trump in spite of his strange behavior because he proclaims he is anti-abortion (which anyone who has followed Trump from his NY days knows that is simply a matter of convenience designed to attract votes).

As to Hillary, you're conflicted about the role of women in society - a woman president is a bit too much for you. We surmise this from your previous post here commenting how the Bible would advise re a present-day position concerning a woman.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

That's how off track you are Clete as HC was never the president, and Obama was when the GFC hit the world. He saved your Aussie butt too, after the Bush financial disaster. Now that was chaos whether you conservatives acknowledge it or not.

Hilliary was secretary of State during the arab spring, enuff said. Saving Aussie butt couldn't be further from the mind of any US president and certainly not Obama, he wasn't even interested in saving US butt just spending you into oblivion. The GFC was much more a disaster for the US than the world, Blame Bush for it if you like but clearly it was social engineering gone wrong and we know who to blame for that

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That's how off track you are Clete as HC was never the president

Bill (and others) considered her Co-president...how far off are you?

Hillary has nothing to do with anything? Why does her name keep popping up???

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Originally Posted by waltero

Hillary has nothing to do with anything? Why does her name keep popping up???

We Republicans have used her as a diversion and as a tennis ball to bounce back and forth.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Hilliary was secretary of State during the arab spring, enuff said. Saving Aussie butt couldn't be further from the mind of any US president and certainly not Obama, he wasn't even interested in saving US butt just spending you into oblivion. The GFC was much more a disaster for the US than the world, Blame Bush for it if you like but clearly it was social engineering gone wrong and we know who to blame for that

LOL, now that's some goofy logic. Clearly big banks and big money got greedy making money hand over fists that destroyed the housing market and led to the GFC, by using tools and gimmicks to exploit eager buyers. That the world went along with this easy money scheme at a time when sovereign finances were a huge deal was predictable.

You must explain this social engineering phrase more Clete, because I think it's just the old dog should be allowed to eat dog philosophy that maintains the status quo class system conservatives so love and adhere to. In layman's terms, tax cuts for the rich because they deserve it and the rest are rabble to justify legal stealing through wealth enhancement through extraction.

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Originally Posted by waltero

Bill (and others) considered her Co-president...how far off are you?

Hillary has nothing to do with anything? Why does her name keep popping up???

Ask JL, but no secret she has garnered absolute FEAR of strong capable females for decades from conservatives.

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This is what happens when you lose to an idiot...idiots at work.

Agreed