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Facts are not determined by a majority vote.Quote:
the facts are by a significant majority in THIS country,
Nonsense. It is, at least in part, a response against the imposition of gay marriage, abortion through nine months of pregnancy, a de facto open borders policy, and the purchasing of votes by an endless welfare program.Quote:
No it's the desperate loonies who hate themselves and everybody else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Our system has flaws and loopholes, easily exploited by politicians of all parties, and elections every two years offers opportunity for course corrects. Yeah, I'm glad we have an opposition to the dufus sycophants, but I'm still holding out for more opposition, or getting this arsehole kicked out completely.
The great flaw in your system is that all your leaders are not elected at the same time, our Senate also suffers from the same flaw so that government cannot always enact their programs. We however achieve bipartisanship some of the time and we do not suffer the outright obstructionism of the fillabuster. Our senators are strictly time limited in their speeches and this allows the business of government to proceed one way or another. Our cabinet are also elected so they know they must face the electorate and be held to account.
Opposition for opposition sake does not serve the country well
the facts are by a significant majority in THIS country,Nice try, but my full statement was "
Facts are not determined by a majority vote.
I think overall I am in the mainstream of what the facts are by a significant majority in THIS country, depending on the subject of course.".
No it's the desperate loonies who hate themselves and everybody else.
Nonsense. It is, at least in part, a response against the imposition of gay marriage, abortion through nine months of pregnancy, a de facto open borders policy, and the purchasing of votes by an endless welfare program.
Buying votes through fear, hate, and LIES is okay though?
Ask your buddy, Mr. Obama, about that. He did a great job with it. You can also ask the woman you voted for.Quote:
Buying votes through fear, hate, and LIES is okay though?
I can tell you (again) what really bothers me about your positions. You say Trump is a dufus and his supporters are sycophants while seeming to believe that all of you who supported Obama and HC are noble, holy, upstanding citizens. It's that double standard that nauseates me. If you ever decide to get honest about that, then your words would have more of a ring of ethical accuracy. Now we have the democrat governor of Virginia advocating for infanticide and practically every democrat in America completely on board with it. On his worst day, Trump has never come close to sinking that low, but I suspect you will never bring it up. I try not think that your silence is due to political opportunism, but it's hard not to. Maybe you will take this chance to prove me wrong.
Yet another "holier than thouism" by a democrat who no doubt had no problem supporting that noble and benevolent candidate from heaven, Hillary Clinton.Quote:
"The greatest tragedy to me isn’t [Trump]. It isn’t that the person supposedly leading our country lacks a single benevolent impulse, that he is impervious to compassion, incapable of nobility, and mortally allergic to simple kindness.
I know that he is just a mirror, and the greatest tragedy is how many Americans he now represents. ~John Pavlovitz
JL, I'm a registered Republican (and have told you that in past threads).
Jeanine Pirro is the one mislabeling it "infanticide." How many interviews has she done with OBs? How many delivery rooms has she been in?
I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the Pavolitz individual.Quote:
JL, I'm a registered Republican (and have told you that in past threads).
I have no idea what Pirro said. I read the quote myself and drew my own blindingly obvious conclusion. What on earth do you think he meant?Quote:
Jeanine Pirro is the one mislabeling it "infanticide." How many interviews has she done with OBs? How many delivery rooms has she been in?
“If a mother is in labor …the infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and mother.”
What kind of discussion do you think they would be having? Who was going to win the Super Bowl???
You mean Pavlovitz?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Pirro is a she, not a he. On Fox.Quote:
I have no idea what Pirro said. I read the quote myself and drew my own blindingly obvious conclusion. What on earth do you think he meant?
Do you have children? If so, were you in the delivery room, or more likely in the case of a non-viable baby, in the operating room?Quote:
“If a mother is in labor …the infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and mother.”
Oh, that disaster yesterday....Quote:
What kind of discussion do you think they would be having? Who was going to win the Super Bowl???
I like the system that recognizes that both parties need each other to get things done even though there are a few loopholes on party or another can exploit to their advantage. Half the country is nuts anyway so you don't want too many at a time trying to govern.Quote:
Originally Posted by paraclete
Read more carefully. The "he" I used was referring to the governor, not Pirro. I know who she is.Quote:
Pirro is a she, not a he. On Fox.
Yes, I have children and I was in the delivery room for both of them. I cannot imagine for one second having the non-chalant attitude about allowing an infant to die that you seem to have. Hopefully I'm wrong about that, and you will set me straight. But we certainly do not just stand by and let those "non-viable" children die. If the child is "non-viable" (a comment made up in your head and not from the governor's comments), then what would there be to discuss? And if the child is indeed "non-viable", then it would have become that way because of an abortion attempt. Read the comments in context.Quote:
Do you have children? If so, were you in the delivery room, or more likely in the case of a non-viable baby, in the operating room?
It is really sad to see what sure appears to be your unyielding commitment to walk in lockstep with anything said by an extreme left wing democrat. At some point your republican registration needs to become something more than mere words. It is even sadder to see the complete and total refusal of today's women who refuse to so much as lift a finger in defense of unborn children.
Boy you sure pile on a lot of assumptions but that's no surprise when you have little facts and data but really hard feelings. Maybe stop holding your nose so much would help with that nausea some, but I get that your nose will never be free again as long as the dufus denigrates the white house.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
They are making the dufus account for his inauguration money and about time since his charity and schools were such rip offs.
Be pregnant for six or seven months, throw up, have back pains, discover you can't even climb into the bathtub to take a shower (if you sit in the tub, you can't stand up by yourself), can no longer eat favorite foods -- okay, I'll spare you more of a pregnant woman's travails -- then you and I can talk because I'll know you and I are on the same page.Quote:
So we just let those "non-viable" children die all the time? If the child is "non-viable" (a comment made up in your head and not from the governor's comments), then what would there be to discuss?
Then, at an eighth month exam, your OB tells you your baby is dead or dying or a CT scan reveals the baby is majorly deformed, then what should that pregnant woman do, especially if her own life is in danger? And, psssst, very few women who've made it to the sixth or seventh or eighth month have no intention of getting an abortion "just because." The "because" would have to be life threatening.
I read your reply. Turned out, sadly, that I was wrong in hoping you would prove me wrong. Just more verbage about supposed facts and data, but unwilling to be even an ounce critical of this democrat governor. You should try applying the same standard of judgement to all pols that you apply to Trump. Politics, politics, politics.Quote:
On his worst day, Trump has never come close to sinking that low, but I suspect you will never bring it up. I try not think that your silence is due to political opportunism, but it's hard not to. Maybe you will take this chance to prove me wrong.
Wow. Your commitment to the liberal democrat philosophy of abortion at all costs is so stringent that you cannot even address the governor's comments. You have to revert to a long litany of the difficulties of pregnancy. Let me ask you two questions and see if you will answer them.Quote:
Be pregnant for six or seven months, throw up, have back pains, discover you can't even climb into the bathtub to take a shower (if you sit in the tub, you can't stand up by yourself), can no longer eat favorite foods -- okay, I'll spare you more of a pregnant woman's travails. At an eighth month exam, your OB tells you your baby is dead or dying or a CT scan reveals the baby is majorly deformed, then what should that pregnant woman do, especially if her own life is in danger? And, psssst, very few women who've made it to the sixth or seventh month have no intention of getting an abortion "just because." The "because" would have to be life threatening.
If it is OK to abort (kill) a completely viable fetus at eight months because you have discovered it is deformed, then would it be OK to kill the baby a week after delivery for the same reason? If not, then why not?
Is it OK for a doctor to perform an abortion for any and all reasons in the final trimester when the baby is viable and able to feel pain? If not, then will you stand against the new law in New York and oppose the governor's support of the proposed law in Virginia?
And please don't go running off a rabbit trail. Just simply give direct answers.
Lemme see. You skipped over my question and didn't answer. You first.Quote:
If it is OK to abort (kill) a completely viable fetus at eight months because you have discovered it is deformed, then would it be OK to kill the baby a week after delivery for the same reason? If not, then why not?
Another jump over my question that you refuse to answer. What would YOU do about this baby?Quote:
Is it OK for a doctor to perform an abortion for any and all reasons in the final trimester when the baby is viable and able to feel pain?
Have you read the NY law?Quote:
If not, then will you stand against the new law in New York and oppose the governor's support of the proposed law in Virginia.
I am happy to answer your question, even though I suspect you will not answer either of mine. At eight months, if the baby is dead, then you have no choice. However, with a live child, and with the only alternative being to kill the baby, you give birth. No one ever said life would be easy, but once pregnant, you have a commitment to life. An abortion at this point does not preserve the mother's life since she still would have to give birth to a dead baby. Unless, of course, you are suggesting the doctor cut the baby into pieces, an idea so grisly that surely a registered republican would recoil in horror at the mere thought.Quote:
Then, at an eighth month exam, your OB tells you your baby is dead or dying or a CT scan reveals the baby is majorly deformed, then what should that pregnant woman do, especially if her own life is in danger?
OK. Your turn.
From what I read such decisions are between the doctor and the family, was the racially insensitive governor's position and really weird you ONLY comment on the abortion stuff given his calls for resignation over an actions 35 years ago that had nothing to do with abortions. I am against abortions personally and that's my business, but females of means and education have them all the time without anyone's knowledge and that their business. It's the poor females who get the ire of you bible thumpers, yet when the kid arrives you're like a dead beat dad and leave them on their own and berate anybody who thinks they should be helped. HYPOCRISY from the religious crowd.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
So we watch the horribly deformed baby die.Quote:
However, with a live child, and with the only alternative being to kill the baby, you give birth. No one ever said life would be easy, but once pregnant, you have a commitment to life.
I'm guessing a c-section would be done. Why would the doctor cut up a dead baby? Or even a living baby? That's not how it's done. (Are you reading Stephen King again???)Quote:
An abortion at this point does not preserve the mother's life since she still would have to give birth to a dead baby. Unless, of course, you are suggesting the doctor cut the baby into pieces
Just as I figured, WG. You will not answer the questions. I suppose it is because it might require you to actually think about what you believe, and that would require courage.
Actually, that is exactly how it is done in second trimester abortions. They cut up and remove a living baby. It's called dilation and evacuation. You don't know the subject, and that is part of the problem. You find it much easier to simply bury your head in the sand and remain ignorant, and that is appalling.Quote:
I'm guessing a c-section would be done. Why would the doctor cut up a dead baby? Or even a living baby? That's not how it's done. (Are you reading Stephen King again???)
Why are you personally against abortions, Tal?Quote:
I am against abortions personally and that's my business,
Honestly, as two confessing Christians, I cannot understand how you two are so content to stand on the sidelines and do nothing. I guess that is necessary for you to stick to your liberal political philosophy. Politics above ethics. If you took a genuine position against abortion, you might have to actually be critical of Obama or HC, and you are unwilling to even consider doing that. What a tragedy.
Yes, WG. I know you are a registered republican. I frequently don't agree with Tal, but he will at least put his views out there and answer questions. WG, your evasiveness get frustrating. Answer the questions. Put your beliefs on the line for examination.
Abortion is unnecessary in today's society. There are other options that are healthier and safer, just ask any female that has means and resources. I cannot get pregnant, nor do I ascribe to any religion, but I think any woman has a right to plan there own family, and make their own choices, within very reasonable limits, one being early in the first trimester, cases of rape or incest, and medical considerations for the health of the mother. Science has evolved and given us many options, and indeed the data has shown abortions falling steadily, especially among young teens. I think we should evolve and use those new options. The only women that those choices can be taken away from are the poor who are neither as aware of the options, or cannot afford them as indeed many poor females have support for their decisions and that matters.
I must point out though JL, the notion of choice is not just a democrat or liberal thang and many church going conservative republicans are prochoice, and pro gay marriage also. Been that way for a long time and likely always will be. You would do well I think to get facts and review data rather than presume assume and pigeon hole people into neat categories for judgement. So, I ain't buying and totally reject the notion that God appoints our leaders. Just saying.
So your Obama wasn't God appointed, well I understand that, and Hilliary certainly wasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Why is it you contradict Scripture, do you only believe what you want to believe?
Romans 13.1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
I don't consider any bible the word of God, but the words of ancient man, though ALL have wisdoms and insights for the order of man that can apply today, and it's flawed, as the humans that wrote it, and those that read it, and those that try to understand it.
My personal relationship with a God that I understand requires no book of instruction, but if that's what you need then go for it. You should know by now you have to do more than quote scripture to convince me of anything. As for the dufus being the cohead of our government, bound to happen sooner or later and before him we had Nixon so turds can ascend to high office, and be flushed just as fast.
Doesn't bother me a bit what you beleive Clete, or JL or anybody else. You can beleive whatever you want it's all good to me...well for the most part anyway.
A thousand greenies!Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
I thought you said you're a Christian. If you are, why the insults and shaming?Quote:
Just as I figured, WG. You will not answer the questions. I suppose it is because it might require you to actually think about what you believe, and that would require courage.
Why not answer the questions? What are you afraid of?Quote:
I thought you said you're a Christian. If you are, why the insults and shaming?
I don't mean to be ugly to you. I guess you have your reasons for your consistent evasiveness. I have beliefs that I am not only unafraid to defend, but even eager to do so, so I guess I think everyone is that way, but evidently not. Honestly, I don't like discussing things with you because of that never-ending unwillingness to be honest and courageous enough to really state your beliefs openly.
Well, you won't answer the questions, so that's it. I think you won't because you know there are no good answers to those questions. When it comes down to how to kill a third trimester baby, it leaves most honest people speechless. It is horrifying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl
A thousand greenies!
Please restate the questions you want answered. I've lost track of them in all this verbiage.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Wow! More shaming!Quote:
I don't mean to be ugly to you. I guess you have your reasons for your consistent evasiveness. I have beliefs that I am not only unafraid to defend, but even eager to do so, so I guess I think everyone is that way, but evidently not. Honestly, I don't like discussing things with you because of that never-ending unwillingness to be honest and courageous enough to really state your beliefs openly.
Our furnace stopped this afternoon, so my husband and I have been a bit busy. There's freezing rain/sleet headed this way, and we wanted to have heat in the house. Thanks for another bout of shaming.Quote:
Well, you won't answer the questions, so that's it. I think you won't because you know there are no good answers to those questions. When it comes down to how to kill a third trimester baby, it leaves most honest people speechless. It is horrifying.
If it is OK to abort (kill) a living fetus at eight months because you have discovered it is deformed, then would it be OK to kill the baby a week after delivery for the same reason? If not, then why not?
Is it OK for a doctor to perform an abortion for any and all reasons in the final trimester when the baby is viable and able to feel pain? If not, then will you stand against the new law in New York and oppose the governor's support of the proposed law in Virginia?
If it is my baby, I would expect to undergo a c-section (depending on the deformity). My pediatrics team would do what they could early on to first make the baby comfortable (if that's an issue) and figure out, with my and my husband's input, what to do immediately to begin to repair or correct the baby's physical problems and what can be done in the future -- or perhaps the disability is so major that just keeping the baby as comfortable as possible will be all that can be done. Nowadays, with medical technology as advanced as it is, there is usually something can be done to improve the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
If the mother's life is at serious risk, then the (at risk) baby may have to be sacrificed as humanely as possible. Medical science has advanced enough that this situation occurs probably very infrequently.Quote:
Is it OK for a doctor to perform an abortion for any and all reasons in the final trimester when the baby is viable and able to feel pain? If not, then will you stand against the new law in New York and oppose the governor's support of the proposed law in Virginia?
Please read for yourself what that NY law actually says and stop listening to those who have an agenda.
You didn't answer either question.
1. Is it OK to kill a fetus at eight months because it is deformed?
2. Is it OK for a doctor to perform a third trimester abortion for any reason?
The questions are simple. Didn't say your baby. Didn't say the mother's life was at risk. Is vague your maiden name??
Your questions are not black or white, and shouldn't demand answers that are yes or no. Okay, I'll do it your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
1. No.
2. Yes.
How can you rule out abortions for deformities (question 1) but then say it is OK to have a third trimester abortion for any reason?? Wouldn't that automatically make the answer to question 1 "yes"?Quote:
Your questions are not black or white, and shouldn't demand answers that are yes or no. Okay, I'll do it your way.
1. No.
2. Yes.
If you agree with abortions for any reason in trimester three, you are saying that a baby can be killed for being the wrong gender, wrong race, not ideal physically, mother simply changed her mind because she got mad at her boyfriend, of any one of dozens of other hideous ideas.
Oh well. At least you did answer the questions. It is not possible to put into words how glad I am that I do not share your views, especially with the knowledge of how third trimester abortions are performed. I am just beyond amazed that you would be in agreement with it, but that is your decision.
- Dilation and Extraction: a surgical abortion procedure used to terminate a pregnancy after 21 weeks of gestation. This procedure is also known as D & X, Intact D & X, Intrauterine Cranial Decompression and Partial Birth Abortion."
Now you're lecturing me on how I answered your poorly worded questions? More shaming?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
Not lecturing but questioning. The answer to 1 cannot be no and then answer 2 yes. At least not and be consistent in your thinking. It is a plain contradiction.
Well, if you are comfortable with your position, I don't know what else to say. You believe killing babies is OK up to and including the ninth month. I just don't know what else to say. At least your belief on the matter is plain. I'm just glad to Almighty God I don't have to live with that belief in my own heart. It is heart breaking to me and the greatest tragedy of our day that we will not step up and defend those who absolutely cannot defend themselves. What a cowardly culture we have become.
Arguing this in an insane world gets nowhere. The rights of women have become a religious belief, they know no God but themselves, something akin to the demonrats
I fear that has become true for many, men and women alike. Another good post.Quote:
they know no God but themselves
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