When it came to a ballot initiative even California rejected it (prop 8) .The the courts overturned the will of the California voters . Gay marriage is a dead issue . The only thing left is stopping the persecution of those who oppose it .
|
When it came to a ballot initiative even California rejected it (prop 8) .The the courts overturned the will of the California voters . Gay marriage is a dead issue . The only thing left is stopping the persecution of those who oppose it .
Throw rocks at people expect to get rocked. If they won't go quietly then there will be a hell of a ruckus. You know the rules Tom, stay in your lane and let people stay in theirs. That's how it works. If folks would mind their own business and be civil, you may get some civility back. I just never got the memo about discrimination and hating. Before you say anything, I don't hate the dufus or his sycophants either, just the uncivil and uncouth words and behavior, but the good news, we are learning what we shouldn't be doing.
I'm sure even though you are making money you realize as a role model he would be the worst. Sadly we would be making money without him. I doubt he has the chops to keep this gravy train rolling. He darned sure didn't get it started, and only cares about keeping his own silver spoon in his big mouth. That's not hate speech folks, just an observation and maybe a prediction.
Yes I'm ENTITLED and got papers to prove it! Worked as hard as anybody to get 'em. Just tired in my old age of these stupid human tricks and traps!
would you consider forcing bakers to make a wedding cake for gays when that baker morally opposes it "staying in your lane " ,or forcing people to accept values regardless of their opposition ? WE know with all the boycotts and other punishments administered by the thought police that your idea of tolerance is a one way street.
I thought discrimination was against the law in this country? I think our history is one of increasing tolerances, and this gay thing is but the latest test. It wasn't that long ago the races couldn't mix, and it took years to realize the goals set forth in our own constitution, and be real, some are still reaching through continued opposition. We haven't made that perfect union yet, and we still blame each other for why. Heck I doubt we even know what that perfect union is, maybe that's why many are so STUCK in whatever their idea is, while others are building yet.
I think the rule of law, and the free market takes care of those that discriminate don't you? I mean a CUSTOMER is asking for a freakin' cake, not a blessing, or opinion, absolution, conversion, or a sermon. I did mention mind your own business didn't I?
Personally I wouldn't ask him to do a damn thing against his beliefs, nor would patronize him, and yes I might sue him, but that's as lawful of what he does. A recent court case found that a baker did not have to bake a cake for a gay wedding so there you go, but you expect Tolerance from one side while the other can discriminate based on his belief?
Let's face it Tom, man is not ready to live in peace, and actions still have consequences. Hope he isn't a Christian baker because I never heard Jesus say a thing about treating anyone any way other than as a brother. So I respectfully submit that I would tolerate such a baker enough not to beat his a$$, and burn his shop down, and seek a better vendor. History is full of those that have done that even though we have had our dignity trespassed against us.
In conclusion it is human to raise hell when disrespected as a human. Tom I think you expect a lot from anybody that feels disrespected, no matter the faiths and beliefs of the one doing it. I hope the baker enjoys his exemption to the law, and someday finds his own TOLERANCE.
Maybe then we wouldn't have that one way street you speak of. Until then it's simply outlandish to expect dignity and respect for one who gives none himself, or is selective in his own tolerance. I can have tolerance but no sympathy for a baker or anyone who had NONE for me can't I?
Heck I ain't even gay, but still NO SYMPATHY because discrimination sucks!
Jesus ministered to the prostitute . He did not participate . He loved the sinner and hated the sin. Baking a cake for a gay wedding is immoral to those who believe gay marriage is immoral . The same baker would have no issue baking a cake to the same people for a birthday. It it the ceremony the baker does not want to participate in and it is a grotesque argument to suggest that by not baking a cake for a gay marriage the baker is not acting in a Christian manner .
How about:Quote:
would you consider forcing bakers to make a wedding cake for gays when that baker morally opposes it "staying in your lane " ,or forcing people to accept values regardless of their opposition ?
***No bakery is required to sell baked goods to people 65 and over (sugar harms their bodies -- a holy temple -- and makes them diabetic)
***No florist is required to sell floral arrangements for funerals (God created flowers for the living to enjoy)
***Condoms and other birth control measures including the rhythm method are a sin (God said, 'Be fruitful and multiply")
umm we already have a lot of nanny state laws for the good of our health .Just ask future Democrat nominee Mike Bloomberg . If a florist doesn't want to sell flowers for any specific event they should not be required to do so . Same thing with birth control a person should not be forced to sell them if they have religious objections . What is so hard about that ? You trying to tell me you can't find other bakers ,florists ,drug stores that would be more than happy to sell them if there is a market for them ? The 14th amendment states 'No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;' Is religious freedom not a right ? Amendment 1 says it is ..... Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereo
Fine with me. It would be foolish for them to do, but it's their business. It's amazing to me how much of this should cease to be a problem. If one business does not want my money, then I can find another one who does. Let people run their businesses as they choose to.Quote:
***No bakery is required to sell baked goods to people 65 and over (sugar harms their bodies -- a holy temple -- and makes them diabetic)
***No florist is required to sell floral arrangements for funerals (God created flowers for the living to enjoy)
***Condoms and other birth control measures including the rhythm method are a sin (God said, 'Be fruitful and multiply")
But if we are going to force the baker to do business with gay marriages, can we force gay couples to do business with stores owned by evangelical Christians? Can we force people to go to restaurants they might otherwise choose not to go to?
I gotcha on that, but I can understand a bad reaction when service is refused for whatever reason. Ever experienced that?Quote:
If one business does not want my money, then I can find another one who does. Let people run their businesses as they choose to.
are you equating race discrimination with having objections to gay marriage ?.... no choice vs a behavior choice ? Yes we appropriately have laws against race discrimination. If I was African American I would be appalled at the attempted equivalence and the misappropriation of the civil rights movement .Pro-gay marriage advocates are demanding that Americans who dissent from the affirmation of gay marriage recant or be driven from the public square.What's next ?Will churches and synagogues that cite Scripture forbidding such marriage be indicted for hate speech? Or is it ok to protect the church's free exercise right ? Would you force a church to perform such a service ? If not then why are they entitled to more religious freedom than a merchant who does not wish to participate in a ceremony they find morally objectionable ?
I can in part, but I don't think the government has any role in forcing businesses to accommodate customers anymore than forcing customers to spend their money in certain businesses. Just an issue of freedom. Next, we will find the feds forcing religious customers to do business with gay-owned businesses.Quote:
I gotcha on that, but I can understand a bad reaction when service is refused for whatever reason. Ever experienced that?
Personally, I think if I owned a bakery and a gay couple came in to order a cake, I'd view it as a chance to introduce them to the gospel of Christ, but that would be my choice. Should be left up to the individual. Now if I had to deliver the cake and made it appear that I was participating in, and approving of, their marriage, then I would not care to do that.
What if you didn't own the bakery and the boss said serve everybody?
different scenario. Your choice is to work for the employer or not . If you choose to work at the bakery you would be expected to follow the rules
That's about it. So what would I do? I would not participate in the wedding. Otherwise, I would want to be kind to everyone who walked through the door.
Baking and decorating their cake -- and thus "participating in their marriage" -- would affect your life in what way(s)?
Baking and decorating the cake... no problem. Being on site with the cake could make it appear I approve of what they are doing. That would bother me. I want to recognize and celebrate marriage in the way God intended it.Quote:
Baking and decorating their cake -- and their marriage -- would affect your life in what way(s)?
Now if I actually did bake and decorate the cake, that would solve the problem. They would turn it down flat!
And that is....?Quote:
I want to recognize and celebrate marriage in the way God intended it.
A man and a woman.Quote:
And that is....?
Maybe you'll take Jesus's word for it. Matt. 19:4 He (Jesus) answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
the act of baking the cake makes the baker a participant in the ceremony. Find another baker . The only one hurt is the baker because there is no pay day .Otherwise leave the baker alone to keep faith the way the baker chooses .
Just about nailed it.
Not all Christians feel that way as many gay people are as devout as their straight counterparts. I find it fascinating that some churches allow gay marriages and embrace their gay members while others do not. It seems to be growing and reminds me of the ancient times when Christians were the ones in the closet and rejected by masses. If it was wrong then, why would it not be wrong now? I recall the sharia law dust up, and the fear of it, but many of those beliefs are deemed illegal under the law, but discrimination because of ones beliefs in Christianity is not? Let us not forget the slavery thing by a Christian nation that has such a brutal history even long after the civil war, and still lingers heavily today.
I just think its not a good thing that a group can be exempt from the law while they taut equal protection of the law, so I guess it's easier to write the words than do the actions. I get accommodating workers who cannot comply with the functions of their jobs be they bakers, pharmacists or any other job, because of religious beliefs, but I don't see that as a good thing either unless it applied to EVERYBODY.
Maybe that's the real conflict here in that as a nation of laws, we have yet to reconcile the equal protection under those laws, but that's a judges job isn't it? Unfortunately they are picked from the same humans that have the conflicts. One could only hope they are not from the same church as the conflicted. More evolution seems to be needed by some more than others.
So JL I hope you understand how it would feel if you walked into an establishment to get a product and got a sermon instead of service. That was what my question were about, and I liked your answer that you would just seek service elsewhere. In that respect you may be a better man than me.
I would call the cops. I just don't believe that service conflates with condoning. Its like no shoes, no shirt, no service signs at 7/11 on steroids.
The world is full of churches who do not believe the Bible. I don't mean to sound ugly, but to say that a person is a devout Christian when he/she is openly and unreservedly sexually active with anyone other than a genuine spouse (a person of the opposite sex) is not a Biblical statement. If we are going to serve Jesus, we have to do things His way. It will not be a perfect experience, but we would, at the very least, have to acknowledge His views of marriage and sexual expression.
Do you believe a shop owner should be able to have ANY standards at all? If not the "no shirt, so shoes, no service" standard, then can they at least insist on having clothes on? Can they prohibit people from spitting on the floor? Any standards at all?Quote:
I would call the cops...Its like no shoes, no shirt, no service signs at 7/11 on steroids.
That's kind of the point. That is your belief. Mine is different. Why not simply allow both of us to express our beliefs?Quote:
I just don't believe that service conflates with condoning
How can you be so blind Tal, either you believe or you do not. There are many deceived people in the world, but being a "good" person will not save you, you have to act on your beliefs too
Yeah you do sound ugly there, maybe judgmental, but you are entitled to that opinion, I can respect that though I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I get standards and at least 7/11 posts a sign of their standards unlike that Baker who might not. You know like those ugly signs back in the day "no coloreds", or "white only". Ever see a sign that says "No gay wedding cake or catering"? At least you know what your getting.Quote:
Do you believe a shop owner should be able to have ANY standards at all? If not the "no shirt, so shoes, no service" standard, then can they at least insist on having clothes on? Can they prohibit people from spitting on the floor? Any standards at all?
We do, but I just hope you don't take my challenges personally as I never do, though they can wind me up sometimes. 8DQuote:
That's kind of the point. That is your belief. Mine is different. Why not simply allow both of us to express our beliefs?
Disagree in what way? Are you saying that the Bible endorses men having sex with men?Quote:
I can respect that though I disagree.
We might be struggling over the definition of "gay". I take that to mean a person who actively engages in sex with people of the same gender. If you mean, however, a person who is tempted in that direction but does not act on it, then that would be a different matter.
No offense taken. I enjoy the give and take and certainly respect you as a person.Quote:
We do, but I just hope you don't take my challenges personally as I never do, though they can wind me up sometimes. 8D
While I find wisdoms and insights into the writings of ancient men, I give NO book(s) a divine position and that includes everybody's bible... not just the Christian one. So it matters not what they endorse, or doesn't endorse. My own relationship with the creator is a personal one that is direct and that I chose to put nothing between us. I need the power of good orderly direction to have the power to resist and deal with the chaos that exists. Just me. I knock no one that needs whatever guidance that makes sense to them.Quote:
Disagree in what way? Are you saying that the Bible endorses men having sex with men?
The subject was gay people so that's the term I used, and the point was that discrimination on any basis is WRONG. You can feel free to substitute gay for any social name you want. It is really meaningless segregating or judging any human by what they do with another human behind closed doors. I will admit, I have my limits though, and maybe that's a flaw, but it is what it is, and can certainly accept the flaws of other humans. I think that's why while two humans doesn't bother me, introducing other species is a bridge too far but other family groups beyond two doesn't disturb me so a harem doesn't offend as much as it does others. I'm not ashamed of my liberal views and make no excuses to the boundaries of good behavior I'm comfortable with.Quote:
We might be struggling over the definition of "gay". I take that to mean a person who actively engages in sex with people of the same gender. If you mean, however, a person who is tempted in that direction but does not act on it, then that would be a different matter.
So I admit that my judgement of a fellow human is a scale of good, bad, or somewhere in between. Glad you enjoy the discourse, so do I, and I respect everyone here, even though it gets contentious. It's all good my friend, can't imagine a day without you guys.
I don't think you really believe that. If, for instance, someone says he has received guidance that makes sense to him to the effect that he can kill you and rob your house, I just don't think you will go along with that. For that matter, the baker who says he received guidance from Jesus that he should not participate in a gay wedding is exactly what you have been criticizing.Quote:
I knock no one that needs whatever guidance that makes sense to them.
Everything cannot be subjective. There has to be some objective truth. All ancient writings cannot be given equal footing since they have so many places of disagreement. As to the Bible, I would just encourage anyone to examine the evidence for its truthfulness and reliability.
The most important question I know of, and in fact the ONLY truly important question I know of, is this: Did Jesus Christ really rise from the dead? If He did, then that changes everything. If He did not, then I can't see how anything really matters. After all, we would just be another species of animal on a small, otherwise unimportant planet circling one star among multiplied trillions of stars in a universe billions of years old.
Hmmm. You judge people? That's strange. About me, you said, "Yeah you do sound ugly there, maybe judgmental." So it's OK to judge when you do it, but not for others?Quote:
my judgement of a fellow human
No, if we are going to serve Jesus, we have to BE like Jesus. This is the Gospel, this is Love. Doing things a certain way is Law.Quote:
If we are going to serve Jesus, we have to do things His way.
Jesus saw individuals, not just their labels. This inspired them to know Him better.
I think that's a somewhat fair statement, but Jesus loved people enough to tell them the truth. He didn't just go around patting everyone on the head and telling them not to worry about sin. He confronted sin, and not always in a nice manner, so if we are going to be like Jesus, we will have times when we are called upon to do the same. Doing so is a great act of love.Quote:
No, if we are going to serve Jesus, we have to BE like Jesus. This is the Gospel, this is Love. Doing things a certain way is Law.
Don't believe Jesus confronted sins? Try reading this. Pretty strong stuff.
Luke 11:37 When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38 But the Pharisee was surprised when he noticed that Jesus did not first wash before the meal. 39 Then the Lord said to him, “Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But now as for what is inside you—be generous to the poor, and everything will be clean for you. 42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. 43 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and respectful greetings in the marketplaces. 44 “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which people walk over without knowing it.”
Might also check out what he told the woman caught in adultery. He was wonderfully merciful to her, but also told her, "Go and sin no more." There cannot be love without warning people about the consequences of sin. And yes, that has to start with me.
That's a really good statement and I agree with it. However, he did not ignore the conditions of their lives. There was always the call upwards.Quote:
Jesus saw individuals, not just their labels. This inspired them to know Him better
And those whom we confront regarding their sin are to confront us also in the same manner, with Love. After all, Romans 3:23 says, "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."Quote:
He didn't just go around patting everyone on the head and telling them not to worry about sin. He confronted sin, and not always in a nice manner, so if we are going to be like Jesus, we will have times when we are called upon to do the same. Doing so is a great act of love.
I'm not sure what your point is. Should sinners be compassionate to sinners? Absolutely. Should we justify and excuse sin since we all struggle with it? No.Quote:
And those whom we confront regarding their sin are to confront us also in the same manner, with Love. After all, Romans 3:23 says, "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
You may as well believe it because I don't give a rats patoot where one gets his guidance from, nor where it takes him. A loony can invoke Jesus the same as a good man, so all I deal with are the actions. My criticism of that baker is but my opinion, and my right to express it. My complaint is discriminating by refusing to service another human. I have experienced it first hand, up close and personal, and it's an infuriating, disgusting and humiliating place to be, and WRONG to treat another human that way just because you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I have no control over the actions of another, just my own, and if Jesus told you to break in my house and kill me, then I can help you take it up with Jesus personally, god willing, but who can predict the outcome?
Our conflict my friend seems to be you think your baker is exempt from the law, and discrimination is AGAINST the law, though I must acknowledge that you thumb your nose at your fellow Christians as well as take exception when some one doesn't agree strictly with your assessment. I'm guilty of not agreeing and saying so. What do you want me to do about that?
I have already said the writing of the ancients is both fascinating and insightful, but I have yet to find one to be any better than the others and there are many. Actually the names may change but the gist is the same in my honest opinion. You like yours, COOL! I don't mean to offend. I explained that already, and accept you must proselytize when you can. Comes with the territory huh?Quote:
Everything cannot be subjective. There has to be some objective truth. All ancient writings cannot be given equal footing since they have so many places of disagreement. As to the Bible, I would just encourage anyone to examine the evidence for its truthfulness and reliability.
His body died, but obviously his spirit lives on still in every heart that is open to him. We just do not know the awesome power of creation, but can see the wonder of it all around us. Being a part of it is what really matters. That's where my gratitude starts. OMG am I proselytizing now too!Quote:
The most important question I know of, and in fact the ONLY truly important question I know of, is this: Did Jesus Christ really rise from the dead? If He did, then that changes everything. If He did not, then I can't see how anything really matters. After all, we would just be another species of animal on a small, otherwise unimportant planet circling one star among multiplied trillions of stars in a universe billions of years old.
But too often the attitude of Christians is "I'm better than you because I'm saved."Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
I would sure agree with that.Quote:
But too often the attitude of Christians is "I'm better than you because I'm saved."
But you said, "I knock no one that needs whatever guidance that makes sense to them." So if they discriminate because of the guidance they have received, is that OK? And if not, then aren't you judging them?Quote:
My complaint is discriminating by refusing to service another human.
should a Jewish owner of a deli be forced to cater a KKK meeting ?
I understand him to be judging the guidance they received.Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
No forcing. And good could come of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomder55
So he can, all on his own, determine the validity of "divine guidance" someone else received? Wow. That's taking on a big responsibility. I don't think he, or you, or I, or anyone other person is able to, on our own, do such a thing.Quote:
I understand him to be judging the guidance they received.
So your answer is that they should not legally be forced to do that? Just asking.Quote:
No forcing. And good could come of that.
agreed , a pastrami on rye will turn anyone .Quote:
And good could come of that.
Now THAT was funny!Quote:
agreed , a pastrami on rye will turn anyone.
It's not just me, but the law that says discrimination is unlawfull. You enjoy an exemption, others do not have. You think a Rasta can practice his religion in Texas? He gets arrested as soon as he fires up! How is that FAIR? I God told you to break other laws would that be right? I have already noted that a court has said a baker cannot be forced to cater a gay wedding. Hey I'm cool with that, but let me ask as Tom has put forward, a gay BIRTHDAY cake is okay? Just not a wedding cake right?Quote:
Originally Posted by jlisenbe
NO! If a Christian doesn't have to cater a gay wedding, then why should a Jew cater a KKKmeeting? It's still discrimination. This is America and all are equal. No telling when us stupid humans will get that message.Quote:
should a Jewish owner of a deli be forced to cater a KKK meeting ?
Maybe, but I have strong beliefs too, that I can admit. I've been to gay weddings had a great time, but a Klan meeting, it would take more than the food to get me there and to be real, never been invited to one. I would worry about being the entertainment as opposed to being a guest if you get my drift.Quote:
I understand him to be judging the guidance they received.
| All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:11 AM. |