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Originally Posted by talaniman

Stupid British government went along with the stupid EU governing body. Much like governments across the globe and especially here in the US where our own government serves the rich elites interest, and ignores the common citizen.

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The revolt is against the failures of the progressive Wilsonian federal administrative state . Wilson said the constitution was obsolete .He held that the business of politics( elections)should be separated from the administration of government, which would be overseen by unelected "experts", who would write the regulatory controls the nation is governed under .Unelected and highly trained experts could govern the nation more rationally, effectively, and responsibly than elected representatives. Elected legislatures roles would be diminished . This happened in the US over a century of destruction of constitutional principles . It was introduced in Europe 1st through the introduction of Bismarck and Fabian socialism ...then later expanded with the introduction of the EU .
Trump is not a revolution (he represents the final nail in the coffin of the Republican party), He. would just bring his own 'experts ' into the system. He argues against the incompetence and corruption of the people running the government (much like you do Tal) .He does not speak at all of reforming the big federal system .If anything he call for more of it(just like the inconsistent and incomprehensible babble that came from Bernie Sanders ,and Elizabeth Warren) . You never hear him speak of returning to constitutional governance .

He would be another emperor with a 'pen and a phone'. The only difference is in his mind ,would be the better manager of the leviathan .He would pay for his expansive programs by eliminating “waste, fraud, and abuse”.....he'll 'make deals'.

You don't believe me ? Read the transcripts of his interview about health care :

Donald Trump: Obamacare’s going to be repealed and replaced. Obamacare is a disaster if you look at what’s going on with premiums where they’re up 40, 50, 55 percent.
Scott Pelley: How do you fix it?
Donald Trump: There’s many different ways, by the way. Everybody’s got to be covered. This is an un-Republican thing for me to say because a lot of times they say, ‘No, no, the lower 25 percent that can’t afford private. But–‘
Scott Pelley: Universal health care.
Donald Trump: I am going to take care of everybody. I don’t care if it costs me votes or not. Everybody’s going to be taken care of much better than they’re taken care of now.
Scott Pelley: The uninsured person is going to be taken care of. How? How?
Donald Trump: They’re going to be taken care of. I would make a deal with existing hospitals to take care of people. And, you know what, if this is probably–
Scott Pelley: Make a deal? Who pays for it?
Donald Trump: –the government’s gonna pay for it. But we’re going to save so much money on the other side. But for the most it’s going to be a private plan and people are going to be able to go out and negotiate great plans with lots of different competition with lots of competitors with great companies and they can have their doctors, they can have plans, they can have everything.

And it is not just in health care . He promises big government executive action on almost every issue be it social security ;be it trade.

Glad to have you back in CE, Tom! Have missed your input.

To the subject at hand, no matter the position or ideology, the lack of consensus action by government is at the heart of the matter. Hillary has a website full of detailed plans trump does not and I agree he seeks to destroy the republican party like he destroyed the primary candidates.

At least he grasps that the ordinary guy has been given a really raw deal and that's a global fact. The Donald cannot destroy repubs without the support of other repubs and they sure have voted for him so far.

Whether you believe he can deliver on his rhetoric is another story, as in Briton, more will be revealed later.

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At least he grasps that the ordinary guy has been given a really raw deal

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and you think Evita hasn't been complicit in this betrayal ? The fact that she has policy positions authored by someone else does not impress me . I know where she stands . She will repudiate even the moderation that the philanderer in chief had when he ran the DNC and the Presidency after Newt reigned him in. The next 4-8 years will determine whether (in the words of Lincoln ) 'government by the people ,for the people' ,can stand . Neither candidate gives me much hope .

I think it is time to close this thread, because it is no longer about brexit. Now we are talking about political arguments in south america... okay

@Tickle: Brexit didn't develop in a vacuum, nor is it an isolated event either.

This started LONG before Clinton Tom, and well before the decline of industry in the 1970's. Government allowed Big Biz to do as it pleased because there was then, and always has been a huge profit in CHEAP labor, even as technology made jobs OBSOLETE.

This double whammy has profound negative effects on generations of workers throughout the world. So why are we just now taking notice and speaking out? I guess you have to get screwed for years before you say ouch and then a fool comes along to finish scaring the crap out of you.

South America?

I've read the Brits have two years to bring the Exit to pass. I've also read there are mutterings about having a second referendum. What is true?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

@Tickle: Brexit didn't develop in a vacuum, nor is it an isolated event either.

This started LONG before Clinton Tom, and well before the decline of industry in the 1970's. Government allowed Big Biz to do as it pleased because there was then, and always has been a huge profit in CHEAP labor, even as technology made jobs OBSOLETE.

This double whammy has profound negative effects on generations of workers throughout the world. So why are we just now taking notice and speaking out? I guess you have to get screwed for years before you say ouch and then a fool comes along to finish scaring the crap out of you.

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so why does the party that cares for the workers encourage the illegal immigration of cheap labor into the country ?

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Originally Posted by tickle

I think it is time to close this thread, because it is no longer about brexit. Now we are talking about political arguments in south america... okay

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This is the type of thing that drove me away from this site .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

so why does the party that cares for the workers encourage the illegal immigration of cheap labor into the country ?

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Again I go back to the inability of government to reach a consensus which in this case is immigration reform. I also submit in the absence of such consensus, Big Biz exploits cheap labor in many instances across the service industry with not raising wages.

You are well aware of my Walmart argument where workers wages are subsidized by taxpayers aren't you? They are also given huge tax breaks by local governments. I also submit that the party that cares for workers (Your words) is pushing for a minimum wage increase, already adapted in some locations/states (And employers, Walmart being one).

Hmm... wonder who uses cheap illegal immigrants labor in the US? Wonder what happens if Trump gets his way and destroys NAFTA? I doubt we could help our friends the Brits deal with their BREXIT!

Have to add that Mexicans have come north to work for many decades before it was illegal, and the work is STILL here, but they aren't the only illegal immigrants here.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Again I go back to the inability of government to reach a consensus which in this case is immigration reform. I also submit in the absence of such consensus, Big Biz exploits cheap labor in many instances across the service industry with not raising wages.

You are well aware of my Walmart argument where workers wages are subsidized by taxpayers aren't you? They are also given huge tax breaks by local governments. I also submit that the party that cares for workers (Your words) is pushing for a minimum wage increase, already adapted in some locations/states (And employers, Walmart being one).

Hmm... wonder who uses cheap illegal immigrants labor in the US? Wonder what happens if Trump gets his way and destroys NAFTA? I doubt we could help our friends the Brits deal with their BREXIT!

Have to add that Mexicans have come north to work for many decades before it was illegal, and the work is STILL here, but they aren't the only illegal immigrants here.

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All right Tal what price a MEXIT. The Britons will have their BREXIT because Britain will never join the UNITED STATES OF EUROPE and give away their soveriengty. This was about more than trade, it was about more than immigration, Germany has been driving an agenda allowing them to at last conquer Europe.
The US faces the problem of migration from Mexico, not content with jobs flowing south, the mexicans seek to take over the US by migration, this can be slowed by repudiating NAFTA, closing the border and deporting illegals. Your free trade philosophies have backfired, you have given away the industries and still they come, because they don't just want work as peons, they want the life style too

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Again I go back to the inability of government to reach a consensus which in this case is immigration reform. I also submit in the absence of such consensus, Big Biz exploits cheap labor in many instances across the service industry with not raising wages.

You are well aware of my Walmart argument where workers wages are subsidized by taxpayers aren't you? They are also given huge tax breaks by local governments. I also submit that the party that cares for workers (Your words) is pushing for a minimum wage increase, already adapted in some locations/states (And employers, Walmart being one).

Hmm... wonder who uses cheap illegal immigrants labor in the US? Wonder what happens if Trump gets his way and destroys NAFTA? I doubt we could help our friends the Brits deal with their BREXIT!

Have to add that Mexicans have come north to work for many decades before it was illegal, and the work is STILL here, but they aren't the only illegal immigrants here.

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Given your argument that companies are evil money grubbing greedy bass turds ; what do you think the REAL effect of minimum wages will be ? What impact do you think it will have on the small business that can barely afford to pay their employees now ? I thought you guys cared about mom and pop businesses on Main Street . Guess not . They will either close, hike up their prices in the hopes that the consumer understands(customers won't ) , flee the town , or consolidate positions and eliminate jobs. You ask what the impact of the min wage increase to $15 will have and is having on municipalities where it already initiated ? Any employee who cannot produce $15 an hour in value for their employers cannot legally work in that town . That includes high school and college students who are looking to pay for their education and have some pocket change ,but don't plan on slicing bologna the rest of their lives . Oregon lawmakers passed their law before state hired economists checked in. They concluded that the new law will cost Oregon 40,000 jobs that low wage workers would've filled .
Forbes Welcome

$15 Minimum Wage Sends California Businesses Fleeing | The Daily Caller

You pay lip service to helping the low wage and unskilled worker . But your actions speak another language .

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

South America?

I've read the Brits have two years to bring the Exit to pass. I've also read there are mutterings about having a second referendum. What is true?

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Brexit is too good to be true . So it probably won't happen. The vote that took place is not binding. Parliament has the final say on whether the U.K. leaves the EU. Also ,as you say ,there is already a movement being orchestrated by the elites in London to have another referendum.

Article 50 of the EU says that the EU must be informed by the country leadership before secession can take place. Cameron already said he is leaving that to a successor .There are some who say the PM should not invoke Art 50 until Parliament passes an approval. Most of Parliament is opposed to Brexit .Parliament will have to be dissolved with new elections ,and pro-Brexit MPs installed .
There is also a possibility that the Scottish Parliament could nix it .

Even if Art 50 is invoked ,it takes 2 years to negotiate the terms of dissolution .

Lip service Tom is giving an employer the right to place a value on another human. Profits over PEOPLE. Austerity for those that have no value and can be justified by calling them a lazy drag on the economy, and the haves are entitled to unbridled profits and growth.

How has that business model worked so far, using the US, Briton, and the EU as examples? Be honest and count the growing discontent in the aforementioned countries. You can't ignore it any longer, and the elite policy makers do so at their own peril.

You hate the nanny state and push for the DADDY state, that doles out the LOVE to the select few who align with such self entitled thinking. Very convenient to justify ignoring and vilifying the have NOT'S, but be warned that it easy to oppress the few, until the few become the many, so best find a good place to run and hide with your extracted gains because the many you have denied any value will certainly REVOLT!

That's what BREXIT is all about, and that's what the US election is about. Unbridled capitalism, doesn't work for the many Tom, never has in the history of man! That's not lip service, it's historical fact.

Circulate some of them profits you greedy hoarding B@STARDS!! You hear me you money grubbers?!

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Lip service Tom is giving an employer the right to place a value on another human.

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This exemplifies the failure of Progressive logic. Equating a person's labor to their worth as a human is the viewpoint of a slavemaster, not that of an employer. Was Thomas Edison's work as a patent clerk his total worth? Hardly. Is Justin or Maria or Lashanda only worth their ability to make change at the drive-thru? Again, no. But does Jerome their employer have to pay for Justin's artwork or Maria's music or Lashanda's athletics? The Progressive slavemaster would say yes.

Tom is always in favour of capitalism and tricle down economics, no one told Reagan it didn't work. The nanny state can be too much of a good thing, it enables politicians to maniputate the electorate as the Labor Party, read socialist, did in Australia in the recent election campaign

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/attach...id=48378&stc=1

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Tom is always in favour of capitalism and tricle down economics, no one told Reagan it didn't work. The nanny state can be too much of a good thing, it enables politicians to maniputate the electorate as the Labor Party, read socialist, did in Australia in the recent election campaign

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Originally Posted by Catsmine

This exemplifies the failure of Progressive logic. Equating a person's labor to their worth as a human is the viewpoint of a slavemaster, not that of an employer. Was Thomas Edison's work as a patent clerk his total worth? Hardly. Is Justin or Maria or Lashanda only worth their ability to make change at the drive-thru? Again, no. But does Jerome their employer have to pay for Justin's artwork or Maria's music or Lashanda's athletics? The Progressive slavemaster would say yes.

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You made my point, or misunderstood it. All men are created equal, and a burger flipper shouldn't have to be on welfare to pay rent! No working person should! That's why progressives want a new higher minimum wage.

Sorry if that cuts into your PROFITS.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

a burger flipper shouldn't have to be on welfare to pay rent

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Why should said burger flipper be paid $15.00 (or whatever) when he produces $9?

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According to Reuters' financial information (Jack In The Box Inc (JACK.O) Financials), Jack in the Box's annual profit per employee is $4,314. The average front-line fast food worker works 24 hours/week; let's guess that most Jack in the Box workers are working about that much, and some of them work more, and use 30 hours/week average. That would be 1,560 hours worked per employee per year on average. Divide $4,314 by 1,560 and you get $2.77 profit per man-hour.

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https://www.quora.com/How-much-value...reate-per-hour

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All men are created equal, and a burger flipper shouldn't have to be on welfare to pay rent! No working person should! That's why progressives want a new higher minimum wage.

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Feel good nonsense . Cats is right ,you should be paid based on the value you produce. I can guarantee you that the job is on the fast track to automation ,and it will arrive there much faster if you progressives get your way . I'll repeat the findings of Oregon's own government economists ......the new law will cost Oregon 40,000 jobs that low wage workers would've filled .

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Originally Posted by talaniman

You made my point, or misunderstood it. All men are created equal, and a burger flipper shouldn't have to be on welfare to pay rent! No working person should! That's why progressives want a new higher minimum wage.

Sorry if that cuts into your PROFITS.

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I agree Tal there should be a fair living minimum wage, but at the same time you have to be careful otherwise you wind up as you did in the communist system with everyone being paid the same and all incentive destroyed. What also has to be realised is that in a welfare state you have a situation develop that is called the poverty trap where you can't afford to take a minimum wage job. This is another reason why the minimum wage needs to also be an incentive to quit welfare

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Feel good nonsense . Cats is right ,you should be paid based on the value you produce. I can guarantee you that the job is on the fast track to automation ,and it will arrive there much faster if you progressives get your way . I'll repeat the findings of Oregon's own government economists ......the new law will cost Oregon 40,000 jobs that low wage workers would've filled .

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What are you going to do with all those low paid workers with no jobs and no incentive, to automate low paid jobs is a foolish idea, to automate dangerous jobs is a good idea

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I agree Tal there should be a fair living minimum wage, but at the same time you have to be careful otherwise you wind up as you did in the communist system with everyone being paid the same and all incentive destroyed. What also has to be realised is that in a welfare state you have a situation develop that is called the poverty trap where you can't afford to take a minimum wage job. This is another reason why the minimum wage needs to also be an incentive to quit welfare


What are you going to do with all those low paid workers with no jobs and no incentive, to automate low paid jobs is a foolish idea, to automate dangerous jobs is a good idea

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I love going to the ATM instead of having to walk into the bank and interact with a teller .Saves me a lot of time . I love using the self check out in the grocery store .It's the only place in the store I don't have to wait in a long line to pay for my food.
By Tal's and your standard evaluation the restaurant owners are greedy bass turds . So if they are forced to pay more for low skill labor ,they are naturally going to push back and find ways to reduce payroll.

Carl's Jr. wants to open automated location - Business Insider

New McDonald's In Phoenix Run Entirely By Robots - News Examiner - Examine Your World

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I love going to the ATM instead of having to walk into the bank and interact with a teller .Saves me a lot of time . I love using the self check out in the grocery store .It's the only place in the store I don't have to wait in a long line to pay for my food.
By Tal's and your standard evaluation the restaurant owners are greedy bass turds . So if they are forced to pay more for low skill labor ,they are naturally going to push back and find ways to reduce payroll.

Carl's Jr. wants to open automated location - Business Insider


New McDonald's In Phoenix Run Entirely By Robots - News Examiner - Examine Your World

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Let me tell you a little story from the far side Tom, your thinking stinks by the way, In my part of the world we have a highly developed cafe' and restaurant society including even michelin capped chefs vying to get in on the action, staff are paid a fair wage and don't have to rely on tips to survive, Business is booming' Not all advances in automation are bad and if you want to do the work yourself at the supermarket or the gas station go ahead, Have you noticed they haven't automated plumbing or electrical work. I suggest that when they get to automated medicine you draw the line but they won't do that because there are too many pigs with their snout in the trough. You have to ask, what are we going to do with all those workers sitting on their bum doing nothing but play with their phones all day? We are going to have to stop people making babies because it is illogical to allow the population to increase under these circumstances unless of course you want cannon fodder. When I started in my profession we used pen and paper and maybe a slide rule or adding machine, when I retired I could do the work of seven men, no longer needed a secretary but I worked longer hours and had high blood pressure. Was it worth it? In some cases yes, but what were those who were displaced doing?

Gotcha, so wrap your head around subsidizing low skilled workers that have low paying jobs. Even for multinational companies who use cheap foreign labor and have billions in profits, and get tax breaks for moving overseas. While your at it find something for the workers who's jobs get eliminated by technology. For that matter you better find something for all those kids who can get jobs to pay for those loans so they could get a skilled job.

I doubt you can eliminate the nanny state without solving POVERTY.

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Have you noticed they haven't automated plumbing or electrical work.

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Clete and Tal
That is correct those are highly skilled professions that will not be displaced . Neither will those chefs be displaced . I suggest those people sitting on their bums because they lost their jobs to automation retrain and learn a skill that has value ;as you did . You did not end your career with a slide rule and a pencil . The draftsman did not stop working because the cad machine displaced the graph paper .The burger flipper is and always was a starter job. Back in the day when the government wasn't subsidizing such work ,the young worker starting out took those jobs and then moved on making room for the next young workers etc . The government in it's infinite wisdom decided that burger flipping should be a career ,and that a burger flipper should be able to raise a family .So burger flipper became a permanent job. Now there are none for the young person looking to make a few dollars while going to school ; and the burger flipper is stuck in a job they hate, is unsatisfying ,and believing they are underpaid victims . It's your ideas that stink.

Tal no one can solve poverty, it is a state of mind, but we can be sensitive to low wages and circumstances of those who try hard but their capitalist owners just don't have compassion and understand that if they have a loyal employee they should reward that employee with increased wages. What has developed is a dog in the manger attitude where they will just pay the least they can.

Study loans are a nonsense, it is just a way of eductors gouging students while offering course that impart no useful skills. What we should have is government support for vital skills, paying the student fees on performance and let those who want to study the arts and non essential skills to pay for their course. So what I'm syaing is Stem courses and medicine should be subsidied, as should trades and the crap courses shouldn't be. Extension courses such as masters and PHD should not be subsidised by student loans

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Tal no one can solve poverty, it is a state of mind, but we can be sensitive to low wages and circumstances of those who try hard but their capitalist owners just don't have compassion and understand that if they have a loyal employee they should reward that employee with increased wages. What has developed is a dog in the manger attitude where they will just pay the least they can.

Study loans are a nonsense, it is just a way of eductors gouging students while offering course that impart no useful skills. What we should have is government support for vital skills, paying the student fees on performance and let those who want to study the arts and non essential skills to pay for their course. So what I'm syaing is Stem courses and medicine should be subsidied, as should trades and the crap courses shouldn't be. Extension courses such as masters and PHD should not be subsidised by student loans

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I worked and took out loans to go to school. It was my choice and I assumed the risk. I also paid back every penny I borrowed with interest .It is in fact government subsidizing of college education that has driven the cost of education up so much.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I doubt you can eliminate the nanny state without solving POVERTY.

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Eliminating the Nanny state will take just about as long as creating it took: about half a century. It can be done by teaching kids to stand up for themselves instead of relying on bureaucrats. Byproducts will include more fist fights in grade school but fewer shootings in high school, more confidence but fewer participation trophies, less need for 'safe spaces' and more need for faculty lounges, and more lemonade stands and fewer flash mobs.

As far as solving "POVERTY," first we will need a definition in absolute terms rather than merely income statistics. Owning a 3 bedroom house with a garage is seldom considered "poor" except by the nanny state.

http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...hat-is-poverty

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I worked and took out loans to go to school. It was my choice and I assumed the risk. I also paid back every penny I borrowed with interest .It is in fact government subsidizing of college education that has driven the cost of education up so much.

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And isn't that what I said but only those who get a good job can repay and we shouldn't be burdening kids that way, student loans are a crap idea

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Originally Posted by Catsmine

Eliminating the Nanny state will take just about as long as creating it took: about half a century. It can be done by teaching kids to stand up for themselves instead of relying on bureaucrats. Byproducts will include more fist fights in grade school but fewer shootings in high school, more confidence but fewer participation trophies, less need for 'safe spaces' and more need for faculty lounges, and more lemonade stands and fewer flash mobs.
What is Poverty in the United States: Air Conditioning, Cable TV and an Xbox

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I truly think you are out of touch, some people really scrimp to own their own home. My daughter has been on a slow road down with three houses thus far because her husband's income is basic and she can't get a job, not a lot going in this area for a forty something who has just got three teens off her hands
. You see it can be that to rent is just as expensive as to own. Unless you are renting a dump

Poverty is about not being able to afford the essentials, power, gas, rates and it can be the person doesn't have a good grasp on money management, but there is the factor of low income even with a family member in employment. Big bills like medical aren't easily handled and that isn't appreciated by someone who has more than enough and certainly not by silver tailed politicians who will never have to worry again. I laugh when I see a power hungry rich man want the top job in the country

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Originally Posted by paraclete

And isn't that what I said but only those who get a good job can repay and we shouldn't be burdening kids that way, student loans are a crap idea

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Then stop the propaganda we sell them that a college education is the path to Nirvana.

Thanks for the link, I just wonder how a stove and refrigerator can be considered an amenity, or why poverty in America can be compared to poverty anywhere else? Bottom line you can't live off $13,000 bucks a year with kids, try it and let me know how you make out. Factor in most are single working moms and tell me what kind of car they drive to that minimum wage job, or a family of two low income wage earners that can only afford one clunker.

We still are only talking about a nanny state that costs 10% of the American GDP, far less than the subsidies given to rich guy farmers and billionaires. Do the math, the nanny state is more than just people below a poverty wage, which conservatives vilify and begrudge but say NOTHING about corporate welfare. Here are some more recent facts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social..._United_States

The least you guys can do is stop bullying poor men, women, and kids while you worship guys like Trump who have come out of the last recession no worse for wear. Plus the national debt isn't caused by poor people, though they are the first to be cut and blamed for taking money we don't have, but those welfare checks to Big Biz in the form of tax cuts, and off the book wars.

Now think of the rest of the planet who don't make that $13G a year and who have no refrigerator, or cable, or any other social programs for that matter. Are we seeing a bigger picture here yet?

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Then stop the propaganda we sell them that a college education is the path to Nirvana.

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LOL, without that college education you will be making minimum wage for sure, sadly not everyone can afford or is college material. Nobody looks for Nirvana just a chance at a decent life. That's the American Dream. You got something against hoping for better?

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Originally Posted by talaniman

LOL, without that college education you will be making minimum wage for sure, sadly not everyone can afford or is college material. Nobody looks for Nirvana just a chance at a decent life. That's the American Dream. You got something against hoping for better?

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Honestly ,the pathway to my career was not my college education .It was the work I did to pay for it that led me to where I am today. In the old days what I did was called an apprenticeship .It led to a career .Now I don't say that there was no value in the education I got . College taught me to be a critical thinker . On the down side ;it took me some time to deprogram from the indoctrination. Trust me ;I would not be making a minimum wage or anything close to it . The last time I made minimum wage,or less (back then there was a different wage for teens working ) was in high school. I NEVER saw that as the end game. Until recently I was always looking to advance . Long hours and on the job learning was my path .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Then stop the propaganda we sell them that a college education is the path to Nirvana.

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Where did I say that? Actually you sell them a right of passage, but where does it lead? Some come out ahead and others have no path because the market is oversupplied until it gets to the stage that unless you have a PHD you are not going anywhere. All you produce are educated idiots, where are the products of this system who have made the world better? A rich man can buy a presidency, no brains needed as is being demonstrated and some dlckhead will give him an hononary PHD

Same here Tom but I never knock those who lacked the aptitude that I had, nor begrudged anyone going through a hard time through no fault of their own. I've seen and experienced many things that make me grateful for my good fortunes, and to be honest admire the spirit of those with less who are decent honest people who keep trying and are actually happy about what little they do have.

Unfortunately Tom, I think we never see the folks who quietly manage as best they can with very little, and only pay attention to the loudmouths who have a hand full of gimme and never a much obliged. Do some volunteering and I think you and my man Smoothy would get your eyes open to the true condition of the majority of poor folks, and how they really live, and you would understand the ignorant are a minority.

Indeed it's a fact that poor people don't cause recessions, oil spills, or unemployment, but those things do make people poor.

<See ya' later TODAY OjO>